Here's the new Newsweek poll; it shows Obama ahead 44-41. Their last poll, somewhat famously, had shown Obama ahead by 15.
Here's what I wrote three weeks ago. Just plug in 'Newsweek' where you see 'LA Times / Bloomberg' and we should be good to go.I don't have a big problem with the details of the McCain campaign's pushback on yesterday's LA Times / Bloomberg poll, which had shown Barack Obama ahead by 12 points. In contrast to some of the memos that the press was treated to from the desk of Mark Penn, the McCain team's argument is relatively even-tempered and even-handed, fully acknowledging that their candidate does have a deficit to make up in the polls, if not the double digit margin implied by the LAT.
EDIT: That said, the differences aren't completely about party ID, since Obama lost significant ground in this poll among independents.
At the end of the day, what this really boils down to is an academic argument about whether one should weight polls by party identification, which is perhaps the most controversial subject in polling and one without any wrong answers. My take, for what it's worth, is that weighting by party ID may increase the precision of any one individual poll, but reduce the accuracy, particularly if you are able to look at several different polls at once.
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My question, however, is just who is the audience is for this critique? It's June, and the election is in November. While the overall volume of polling data does give us some hints about what is more or less likely to occur in November, who the hell cares if McCain is down in any one particular poll? If he's down by 3, it's because he's down by 3, and if he's down by 11, it's because he's down by 11. The polling is simply a manifestation of that reality and not its cause.
Moreover, it is not clear to me that this is a spin war worth winning. If the media believes that Barack Obama is ahead by 5 points, then if a new poll comes out next week showing him ahead by 3, it will not get any attention. But if the media believes that Obama is ahead by 12 points, that same poll would create the perception of McCain momentum, and perhaps trigger a couple of days' worth of bad press for Obama as whatever had been going on over the past couple of days of the campaign would be taken as the cause for his polling decline. It might lead to harsher treatment of Obama's decision (flip-flop?) on campaign finance, for instance, or if Iran had been the subject of the week, as evidence that Obama wasn't resonating with voters on foreign policy.
McCain's campaign is absolutely right that the media ought not to focus too much on any one particular poll. But there are times later on when it's going to want them to do just that.
Here's something interesting from the cross-tabs, though: 61 percent of Obama's support is 'hard' and 39 percent is 'soft'. McCain's numbers are the precise opposite -- 39 percent of his support is hard and 61 percent is soft. So we could describe the electorate like this:27 Hard ObamaSo Obama has roughly an 11-point advantage among hard supporters, which corresponds to the Democrats' edge in party ID.
17 Soft Obama
15 Totally Undecided
25 Soft McCain
16 Hard McCain
About 43 percent if the country are hard supporters for one or the other candidate, while the other 57 percent are up for grabs to some extent or another.
McCain ties Obama when he wins 60 percent of those up-for-grabs voters. This is not quite the same thing as winning 60 percent of undecideds, since some of those people are decided (and decided for Obama) -- but their minds aren't completely made up. So it's going to be difficult for McCain to get much more than 60 percent of this group. On the other hand, this universe of 'soft' supporters probably intrinsically tilts Republican, since across a large number of indicators, a higher percentage of Republicans are dissatisfied with their nominee and their party. So it's going to be hard for Obama to get much more than 50 percent of this group. When the soft support is split 50/50, Obama leads by 11.
What I think you're going to see is the national numbers continue to swing around between those two poles -- as they have pretty much all year with the exception of Jeremiah Wright v1.0.
7.11.2008
This Post is Already Written
by Nate Silver @ 10:30 PM...see also depth of support, national polls
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Any hit Obama took earlier in the week on FISA will be eclipsed by the sum total of the terrible week for McBush. McBush refused to fess up to his own record on birth control and veterans affairs. Phil Graham's "whinegate" comments. McBush's lie about naming the steel curtain defensive line when being interrogated which is in direct contradiction to his own book, was his Bosnia moment.
The man is an utter joke as a candidate and when America starts watching him with the proper scrutiny his candidacy will be doomed. He senior and pandering moments are starting to wear thin even in a press that loves him.
Too bad you had to reiterate that...Most of the regulars have read this piece and see how this fits in perfectly with your explanation.
It's the mindless and wandering trolls who spammed up the last thread. I realize your reluctance to crack down on people, but if there are posters who are here to disrupt the threads with their mindless off-topic propaganda...It's better to cut the clutter. (I have experience moderating large sites, and would volunteer to help.)
What is with all the censorship? Rhode Island X, you sound like you could be a KGB Agent with all this censorship you want to put in place.
If you don't like what a person posts then don't read it, or respond to it with what I can see is your obvious do it my way or I'll delete you mentality.
By the way Nate, that was a good post. Still don't feel good about Obama losing 12 points. It is sending shivers up my spine.
Jason Bourne
Ps
Rhode Island,
I hear the Chinese Gov't is looking for a few good censors.
I must say I find the comments getting more interesting by the day. A lot of McCain supporters just dropping in to create noise. Does McCain actually have people going around posting spin?
To the topic at hand. Newsweek has indeed reverted back to somewhere near normal. If they had released another poll with an Obama 15 point lead I think they would have lost credibility.
Rasmussen which has been the most stable poll shows Obama losing a couple points this week, Obama was due. He had to know the "jerk to the center" as Bob Herbert calls it would cost him some support especially on FISA legislation where there are probably a lot of Liberals switching to uncommitted while they let their anger blow over.
The Gallup daily tracking poll (located at gallup.com) continues its unpredictable nature with Obama up 6 points, 3 higher than yesterday.
The state polls over the last few days seem to be mixed. Rasmussen has McCain creeping closer in NJ and WA. It would be nice to see them poll Oregon as well for confirmation of a McCain surge. A Florida poll has Obama up 2.5, which only confirms we have no idea exactly where Florida is right now, Nate probably has it right with McCain up a little.
I do believe the last couple days polls show some softening for Obama. I believe the flip flopping charge has hurt Obama with taking fire from the left and the right. The gaffs over the last couple days seem to have focused the media's attention elsewhere for the time being.
On another note, the Obama campaign seems to have lost its aggressiveness the last few weeks. After winning the nomination, Obama was really tearing into McCain day in day out every time he opened his mouth. Lately, theres been very little. Even the Graham gaff about whiny Americans made yesterday, Obama spent a minute and a half on it yesterday proclaiming "We've already got one Dr. Phil and we don't need another." Thats it. Nothing further yesterday, nothing more today. Nothing from surrogates except when asked about it. Meanwhile the McCain campaign continues to hammer away when not being thrown off course like the last couple days- What gives?
Why doesn't Obama latch onto this like he's fighting for his political life and hammer McCain relentlessly? Force the media to cover it. Every word out of Obama's mouth should be related to McCain's apparent believe that the recession is "Psychological." He could win the white house on this issue alone. But he does nothing. As much as the Obama supporters dislike Hillary, she would be on this like white on rice. She would have herself and Bill, Terry McCaulif, Lanny Davis, Paul Begalla,James Carville, Wolfowitz, and every single member of that campaign blasting McCain minute after minute, hour after hour, day after day relentlessly for weeks. Every time you looked at McCain for the rest of your life that is what you would see. Obama ...
Nothing. No statement, nothing.
I know he has a lot of smart campaign people working for him. But I have no idea what they are doing. Its like they have no idea elections in the United States are not won on issues, but on media spin. Whoever best manipulates the media, usually wins. The Clintons were masters at it. The McCain camp is trying. The Obama camp either doesn't realize, or doesn't care. If he's trying to run a more civil campaign, I find that admirable, but its risky.The MSM has an unyielding appetite that must be fed. If Obama doesn't feed it, McCain will.
A perfect example of this is the apparent Obama flip flop on Iraq. A flip flop that doesn't exist. His use of the word "Refine" came at the end of his press conference and in no way changed any of his policies on Iraq. But the McCain camp said it was a flip flop and CNN and other networks said "O.K., sounds good to us lets run with it." Mark Halprin on CNN said this was the most important development of the general election. I was truly Baffled. I have been speaking the English Language for nearly 30 years now, I went to college and consider myself of at least average intelligence. The word refine in no way means to change or alter. It means to refine, to be more specific and lay out in more detail. In fact a fact checking website (Politifact.com) has looked into this and says this :
"Weighing all these statements together, we find the McCain campaign is off-base in saying Obama has changed position. Obama repeatedly said facts on the ground could affect the tactical moves of an overall withdrawal. Obama's position was not an iron-clad withdrawal timeline in the first place. We find the McCain campaign's statement that Obama has reversed position to be False."
Obama had to deny this for a week, and still now general perception is that he flip flopped. The MSM is not out for being fair or factual. They are out for ratings. Fox News is based on manipulating the public, and they do it very well. If Obama doesn't play the game, he might just lose the game altogether.
Is your national poll weighting trend based by pollster like your state-by-state polls are?
Anon at :07: It's not a matter of "Censorsing" one side. It's a matter of encouraging thoughtful posts. If people are allowed to flood the comments and drown out the rest...They will. If it's allowed, it's only a matter of time until we see hundreds of meaningless posts in every thread.
More traffic means less personal (read: people-know-each-other, community-building) posts, and that's a natural and acceptable consequence. What I wouldn't like to see are these threads turning into a DKos- or Youtube- type. People making quick and thoughtless posts mostly to bump up keywords on google. Or in some unfortunate "points" quest. Or in the hopes that if you say "ODUMBO" with enough exclamation points, it'll convince people of something or other.
Obviously, moderation requires a careful approach. Even though comparing me to the KGB or communist Chinese is quite offensive, at least you're not flooding. I don't advocate censorship based on political beliefs, or even matters of offensiveness like this. Flooding and going completely off-topic, on the other hand, require some action. If maintaining a climate for intelligent discussions is the goal.
Nate,
This doesn't apply to the current thread but have you given any thought to an analysis of comparing the intrade political futures tracker to your win percentage tracker? totally different sources but might be an interesting test of the idea of collective intelligence in markets.
"When the soft support is split 50/50, Obama leads by 11."
Wow, that is a stunning statistic. This reminds me of the delegate math during the Dem primary.
Rhode Island,
It's still censorship! Besides, Nate might like a lot of people coming to his site and making a lot of noise.
Let the people speak, it makes the community stronger!
"What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger."
If you don't like what a person posts, blast them with your superior rhetoric and argument!
By the way, losing 12 points in one month scares me, this can't be good.
Matt said "On another note, the Obama campaign seems to have lost its aggressiveness the last few weeks."
Matt, I think that the Obama campaign has decided to conserve its resources for the "post-season," as Nate phrased it. Since nothing short of a major scandal will have a dramatic impact prior to the conclusion of both conventions, I think they have decided to draw back and game plan for the home stretch. Why waste time, energy and money right now, if it is just to spin your wheels?
I am certain that those of us in competitive states will be seeing Gramm's "whiner" comments and McCain's "Social Security is a disgrace" remarks often in September and October (especially in FL, NV, and PA, the competitive states with the highest number of seniors).
I may be wrong, but I think they are taking a rest, and will come out fighting in the final nine weeks, starting during the Republican convention. Obama will continue to make appearances, but his schedule will probably remain (relatively) light until September.
Nate asked: "My question, however, is just who is the audience is for this critique? "
I'm guessing there are two reasons why the McCain campaign are worried about polls that show them well behind.
First, they need to convince donors to give their money to McCain. If it looks like he's doomed anyway, they'll either hang on to it or donate to candidates in more competitive races.
Second, they need to avoid McCain going into a media-narrative death spiral. If McCain being "beleagered" or some such becomes the story, every single gaffe he makes will be blown up and reported as "more bad news for the hopeless confused-looking old gezzer". A deficit of just a few points, on the other hand, comes out as "Maverick war veteran pluckily fighting against the odds", which presumably suits his campaign just great.
Jason Bourne: Flooding isn't an argument; it's a tactic. You might as well try arguing with Nigerian princes and the sellers of FR33 V14GR4 from your spam folder.
It's more a matter of filtering than censoring, if it's the word choice that's bothering you. To censor is to remove. In this case, what would be removed is flooding, regardless of what side it comes from. Anything demonstrating thought, whether it's pro-McCain, pro-Obama, anti-McCain/Obama, or even pro-Communist/Fascist should NOT be censored. I'm advocating the removal of the mindless flooding we saw in the last thread, and will surely see in this thread.
And onto your argument on "Obama losing 12 points in one month." He never had a 15 point lead; the poll was an outlier. It happens on occasion. This (repeated) post shows how Newsweek's polls are less consistent because they don't weigh party ID. It makes them more prone to volatility. From the full body of evidence, as shown on this site, Obama has had a single digit lead over McCain for the last month. Look at other polls taken at the time of the June Newsweek and this last Newsweek. Just look at the supertracker. Obama probably lost about 2 points in the last week, not 12.
jason bourne said "If you don't like what a person posts, blast them with your superior rhetoric and argument!"
Jason, if only it were that simple.
There have been some posters here making unsupported allegations, and when presented with facts counter to their allegations, ignoring the facts and bringing on the personal attacks. I am not referring to those who are raising principled arguments on the other side (I had a doozy with Higglytown over oil drilling and energy issues in the "Today's Polls, 7/9" thread), I am referring to the ones who ignore the purpose of this site (for intelligent discourse about Nate's model and political issue), and see this as an unregulated forum to spew their venom.
It will not discourage me, as I love to take part in a good argument. But as the Monty Python Argument Clinic sketch said, "An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition" and "Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says."
The arguments here are starting to lose out to the simple contradiction. "No it isn't! Yes it is!"
Only a government can commit censorship. A private website can moderate its discussions to its heart's content, and some form of quality control is usually necessary to address spam, abuse/flames, and other trollish behavior.
I hope counsellorben you are right. This man needs to be President. John McCain is a war hero with an astonishing life story, however, I do not believe he has the intellect to be President. I don't want an average guy like Bush to be president. I couldn't care less if he's great to have a beer with. I want someone so smart that listening to him speak makes me smarter. Thats not McCain.
Watch this video and tell me who the next POTUS should be:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6DBWRd3JNk
counsellorben
I am not from a swing state. You are from Pennsylvania. On the ground in Pennsylvania, whats the word on Obama. How do the hard working folks in that state feel about him?
Chris Matthews mentions every day he thinks theres a "Bradley Effect" where white folks say to pollsters that they will vote for a black man and then don't. Do you get any of this? Whats your general feeling of the situation.
Theres no racial tensions where I'm from and most people are very open minded about minorities.
can someone explain how polls that dont actually add up to 100 can actually represent the tally on election day?
what happened to the other 15 points?
wouldn't this be a big concern?
To more clearly lay out Nate's point, here's what happens when you don't weight by Party ID.
June:
231 Republicans sampled, 23%, 36% with "lean Republican" included
324 Democrats sampled, 38%, 55% with "lean Democratic" included
307 Independents sampled, 35%
July:
315 Republicans sampled, 28%, 42% with leaners
324 Democrats sampled, 35%, 47% with leaners
357 Independents sampled, 33%
While it doesn't explain the drop in Independent support for Obama, it does more explain why he dropped 12 points overall.
Self-declared Republicans gained 8 points in the party ID differential - with leaners they gained a whopping 14 points. How much this transformation reflects actual change in the electorate, and how much it reflects noise and over/undersampling of each party in each poll, is impossible to say.
I'd wager, as always, the truth is somewhere in the middle. But these polls are much more vulnerable to wild swings based on potential sampling problems.
The idea that there's a "floor" and a "ceiling" to the Elections is very compelling. that they stand at +10 and +0 respectively is plausible. Think of it historically: is it really at all likely that McCain will do worse than Carter? that Obama will do at all worse than Gore?
We keep hearing a surprise expressed, that the numbers are not +20 Obama given the economy and all else; but there is no precedent to such a non-incumbent landslide.
I have come around to believing in Rasmussen's weighting of party ID - given the way they do it. At a minimum, it should be presented both ways.
In the Newsweek poll three weeks ago, there was a substantial oversampling of Democrats. Result, a giant Obama lead. This time around the number of Republicans in the sqample almost equalled the number of Democrats (self-identified, of course). REsult, very close.
Norming to the approximately 10% spread that is now showing up in the polls, 3% up for Obama is probably good news, since weighting would probabaly make it 5-6%. Similarly, weighting the poll from three weeks ago would have lowered the margin a lot. (I think Nate did the numbers back then, but it's late and I'm tired.)
"On "Obama losing 12 points in one month." He never had a 15 point lead; the poll was an outlier. It happens on occasion. This (repeated) post shows how Newsweek's polls are less consistent because they don't weigh party ID. It makes them more prone to volatility. From the full body of evidence, as shown on this site, Obama has had a single digit lead over McCain for the last month. Look at other polls taken at the time of the June Newsweek and this last Newsweek. Just look at the supertracker. Obama probably lost about 2 points in the last week, not 12."
I agree 100%. I know Nate keeps talking about accuracy versus precision, but I don't buy it. Look at the two Newsweek polls. Virtually the entire results can be explained by the complete difference in the number of Democrats in the first sample versus the number of Republicans in the second.
In both cases, they sampled demographically and did NOT correct their sample for voter ID. Result? Accidentally, while getting their demographics to resemble the national and regional results they wound up with too many Democrats in the first sample, and probably too many Republicans in the second (although the result was about right from the rolling average from Pollster.com).
They are trying to make sure that their demography is right, but their polls bounce all over the place due to small fluctuations in how many Democrats are in the sample!
Worse, they are inconsistent from poll to poll. At least with Voter ID weighting, you can see a trend line compared to previous polls from the same company! If Rasmussen is showing Obama +4 and the previous week it was +6 and the week before that +8 that's a trend.
Whether or not that particular pollster is right is unimportant. At least they are consistent. And when averaged in with other pollsters and weighted by how accurate their polls were in the past, we can get an idea what the REAL state of the race is.
Pollster.com does that for the PRESENT, but Nate goes them one better and weights the pollster by proven accuracy and then applies a regression analysis to correlate the results to potential outcomes in November.
When you combine the 2 sites you learn for instance, that Obama is currently about +4% nationally (Pollster.com rolling average), but the race is expected to tighten to around +3%.
That means that if the election were held tomorrow, Obama could be expected to win a substantial victory with about 330 EV, but that by November, it should be much closer. Hopes of a blow-out victory for Obama are fading and it looks like another nail-bitter election.
Much more like 2004 than 1996, let alone 1988 or 1984.
That sucks, but it's good to know it now so people aren't stunned in horror as they were in 2004 when Bush started to lead after Labor Day. It was so unexpected that I could barely believe it myself. How could people bring themselves to vote for this national disgrace? Well, they did, and now we see the results.
The only question is whether their buyer's remorse will outlast the attack ads of September. Obama has a lot of work to do and so far he hasn't closed the deal at all.
Guys, some of you obviously have not followed presidential campaigns before. This thing hasn't even gotten warmed up yet. None of these polls are worth a salt until after the conventions. We cannot predict anything right now. The middle of September we will take a look at the polls and have an idea where the race really stands.
What's more interesting than the poll is the way the Media will use the poll to point to the growing Meme "What's wrong with Obama..."
anyhow, nothing is wrong. This poll is exactly consistent with all previous polling they've done, except for the last which was a bad sample.
5/21 - 46%O~46%M
4/24 - 47%O~44%M
3/5 - 46%O~45%M
Cugel: I think a problem with weighting is who's doing it, and who's not doing it. If a poll comes out infrequently, it seems better to weigh it. Weighing helps show the trends more accurately.
But, the whole picture might be better seen without the weight. If a pollster can get a fair sample, accounting for people with only cell phones and that sort, adding "weight" introduces possible error into the equation. The way a small percentage of likely voters identify themselves can throw off the model by a few points...A few points makes a huge difference, if that's the model you're using all year. Without weighing, daily tracking is more prone to jump around for no particular reason, but the end averages will probably be more accurate.
The Rasmussen daily tracker weighs results, while the Newsweek, which comes out infrequently, does not. There would be certain advantages if this were reversed! (But, hey, they aren't the only two pollsters out there. It's a matter of fair pollsters with known methodology conducting polls often enough to get enough data and confirmation on trends. And checking each others' overall accuracy.)
To the folks who are worried about a "loss" of 12 points, I can only reiterate what Jason said, and perhaps give a little illustration of statistics.
Suppose you start with a bag of 12 marbles: six red and six blue. Now, suppose you randomly pick one out. Say you get red (or blue, it doesn't matter). Now, you try to infer what's in the bag. You know that there was at least one red marble in the bag. That's all you know for sure. You don't know anything else, but there are, of course, probabilities that can be computed, which gives you error rates.
Suppose you draw a second ball, and it's blue. Turns out, you have perfectly sampled the 50/50 distribution in your bag. But you don't know that. Even if your bag initially had 11 red and 1 blue marble in it, there's still a 1/11 (9%) chance that you could have picked 1 red and 1 blue, even though that's way off.
And so forth. To really know what's in the bag, you have to pick them all. That's what elections are for (except not everyone votes, of course). But your model gets better, the more samples you take.
But that's all. A poll is just a model of the electorate. It is not necessarily an accurate representation of the electorate. It could be entirely wrong (think what you would imagine if you drew 4 straight red balls out of your bag, which has a 1.7% chance of occurring, which means that roughly 1.7 out of every 100 tries, you would get 4 red balls).
People talk about the margin of error in a poll being, say, 3%. All that means is that 95% of the time, the poll will be within 3% correct, if you did everything right (which you didn't, by the way, because you can't, which is why Nate has a systematic error rate for every pollster, and then another set of systematic errors modeled, as well).
However, think about what that way of expressing an error rate means. Statistically, it means that 1 in 20 polls might be way outside the margin of error. Now, I'm guessing that there are something like 400 polls listed on Nate's front page. That means 20 of them, statistically, are way outside the margin of error. And if the real margin of error is, as Nate suggests, probably at least + or - 5 points, (or possibly a 10 point swing), it means that at least 20 polls on this page could be more than 10 points wrong.
And let me make one more point. Nate argues in the post above that weighting by Party ID might increase your precision but reduce your accuracy (see the diagrams for an explanation of these terms; the precise bullseye is the one where they're all in the same spot). On the other hand, if your Party ID is off badly from the actual population, then you can kiss your accuracy and your precision goodbye.
So, Obama didn't lose 12 points. Newsweek's two samples differed from one another. Did that result from a secular change? Maybe. Did it result from a different distribution of D and R in the sample? For sure. Can we even infer that Obama lost ground among moderates, as Nate suggests? Maybe, but recall, among independents, you have a sample size of only N=350, which is mighty small, meaning your margin of error on that subsample is quite large, especially since we know that "indpendents" is actually "I, but lean D", "I, but lean R", and "True I". The latter are, from another Nate post, only about 10% of the population, and are the only ones who really change their votes very often.
So, if what you're really sampling are ID, IR, and I folks in that 357, and you have the same kind of Party ID variability among the ID and IR, that could screw things up. And, your sample size for true independents is now an N=~100, which has a horrific margin of error.
My conclusion: stop trying to read too much into any one or two polls. If there's any message from this site, it's that you can only make sense of the election if you try to use every poll you've got to calibrate your model of what's going on in the electorate.
The problem with weighting by party ID is that you risk throwing out the baby with the bathwater - something happens that makes people less likely to identify as Democrats, and equally less likely to vote for Obama, it will look to Rasmussen like nothing happened.
Suppose, for example, that the Democrats in Congress gave way to the Republicans on some constitutional issue, making their supporters think they were either spineless or corrupt. Further suppose that Obama decided to avoid a public fight with his party that he was sure to lose and went along with it. The number of people who planned to vote for Obama would drop, but since the number of Democrats would also drop, Rasmussen would think that his support was holding up fine.
It's great to filter out noise, unless the noise you're filtering out is the thing you're actually trying to hear...
Some people post dissenting comments because they disagree with the opinions they see expressed, not because they are mindless ghouls working for some dark and nefarious power. Hard to believe, I know.
I have been following posts and comments on this site for a few weeks, and have found the analysis and commentary thereon excellent, logical, sensible and interesting. Albeit at times difficult, because I have a little understanding of statistics. However over several postings and comments, I can begin to follow some arguments. Excellent work Nate & contributors from both sides of the debate.
to some extent I would be dissapointed if Obama didn't take a hit right now. He has to reposition himself towards the centre, and this is the right time to do it.
Poll watching too far in advance can lead to tactical errors from the candidates teams, or gasps of disbelief from the rest of us when they do the right thing.
A soundbite changes minds for a day. Organising "get out the vote" has effect in november. Registering new voters or inspiring youth changes the electorial balence for a lifetime.
Obama is downplaying soundbite politics & negative campaigning because it only does short term damage. Best to keep his amunition for November.
Instead he is fighting a ground war. He is building up activist networks, and organising voter registration drives.
He is also doing a good job of personaly winning over the influentual from special interest groups like Cristians, Jews & Hispanics. This will add to his activist base.
Come November McCain will find the underlying situation has moved just a little bit. More voters won over by Democratic grass roots activists. More Blacks, Hispanics & Youth registered. More activists to get the voters out on the day.A few points in a few swing states, but enough to turn a hill into a mountain.
No drama Obama? Perhaps, but I think Obama is waging a slow remorsless total war of attrition. McCain is being defeated in detail, in a way that will barely show in the polls.
We are seing the start already if we know where to look. Obama's support base is more solid, more enthusiastic. He has more voters whose minds are firmly made up.
The percentage of unethusiastic voters that McCain must not only keep and expand but get to vote is high and will only rise. They are the rump of the voters that just can't be locked down in advance.
Come November Obama will go after them hard with all the soudbites, negative campaigning & blanket advertising he needs. Only then will we see the poll advantage we have been expecting.
Even after all that I expect the polls to prove optomistic. I think there will be a tiny "Bradley effect" but the bigger problem will be with high income voters who believe in his policies, but at the crunch realise that they will be paying for them.
Relax guys, there is real no competition between the two presidential candidates, the more people watch McCain giving a speech the more they'll move toward Obama or stay home coming election day. McCain is disappointedly boring and stale.
The question is how much of a margin Obama will win the GE.
Can I add to what Wilson said a little earlier - great site even tough I lack a lot of the mathematical/statistical knowledge to follow everything. Really appreciate postings like Clark Miller (July 12, 2008 12:38 AM)and others - gives a great insight into what exactly goes on with polls. Great work all round, Nate and everyone else - please keep it up!!!
PS: Keep an eye on Nebraska's 2nd Congressional District!!
Heh heh. I'm hard.
A couple of points. I continue to be skeptical of weighting by PartyID, a variable that is (a) highly correlated with candidate choice and (b) unverified by any independent source.
If one is going to weight by PartyID, why not simply weight the results by candidate choice and be done with it? A pollster is as likely to "know" the split for two candidates as to "know" the PartyID split. So why not simply weight the data to assure that a sample includes 55% Obama supporter and 45% McCain supporters? That would assure the "stability" everyone seems to be looking for. (Hopefully the sarcasm in the comments is obvious.)
Second, Newsweek seems to be engaged in a common fallacy, often associated with Zogby's results. Compare two polls, one an outlier and one not. Then assume that the differences are the result of changes in attitudes rather than differences in sampling error.
The fact is that even the best polling organization draws a "bad" sample from time to time. That's the nature of sampling. And while two points in time are sufficient to establish a line, they're not sufficient to identify a "trend."
It appeared at the time that Newsweek's previous poll was a likely outlier. (As was the LATimes.) It appears the current Newsweek sample may slightly underrepresent Obama's support. That, friends, is the nature of polling. All samples are fuzzy snapshots. Skepticism, but not cynicism, is always called for.
jsh1120, the defence for weighting by party ID is that in most cases it probably shifts a lot slower than candidate preference. As I understand it Rasumussen isn't just pulling their party ID numbers out of their bums; They're using party ID numbers from their polls taken over several months. This means that their 3-day tracking poll is really a cross between a 3-day tracking poll with a fairly small sample and a 3-month tracking poll with an enormous sample.
If the assumption that party ID moves slowly holds, that removes a lot of the sampling error from their 3-day tracking numbers. The question for us in interpreting the data is whether that assumption is right. Luckily we have a bunch of other polls using different methods to compare with to help us figure out what's going on...
Regarding part id...
My suspicion is that people are gradually moving towards the democratic party. Some republicans are starting to call themselves independents and some independents are starting to call themselves democrats. Exactly where people fit might depend on how they ask the question. Clearly to date this has happened (compared with 2006 and 2004 etc). Whether it is continuing to happen is unclear.
If it is I suspect this could be affecting the results by possibly making Obama's support look weaker when it is strengthening. For instance, if some independents are happy with Obama they might decide that they are going to vote the rest of the democratic ticket and start telling pollsters they are democrats. The effect of this in a weighted poll could be a decrease of Obama supporters among independents but no corresponding increase in the number of democrats (as the poll is weighted). Dissatisfied republicans who still intend to vote for McCain could cause a similar problem if they start referring to themselves as independents.
I wonder if using ideological information (assuming the poll isn't weighted on that as well) or using other clues in the poll it would be possible to figure out if this is happening. For instance if the democrats start to become more moderate or the independents more conservative that might be a clue that something like this is occurring. (of course it also might be a clue that people ideology is moving to the right for other reasons).
"Matt, I think that the Obama campaign has decided to conserve its resources for the "post-season," as Nate phrased it. Since nothing short of a major scandal will have a dramatic impact prior to the conclusion of both conventions, I think they have decided to draw back and game plan for the home stretch. Why waste time, energy and money right now, if it is just to spin your wheels?"
because it *isn't* wheel spinning, it's setting up a narrative that will be ready for the fall. people might not be paying tons of attention now, but they still get snippets of info and waaaaay too much of them have been bad for obama. his team seems to have no ability to push the press.
further, after seeing another mcsame commercial here last night the wife asked, 'isn't it making you nervous that we never see an obama commercial'? My answer was that it sure is...
If obama's news is going to be relentlessly negative, if he's gonna keep pissing off the base with this 'moving to the center', and if he doesn't throw red meat or have visibility, partisans have little reason to send $ or give effort on his behalf.
Further, if Obama lost a lot of enthusiasm from the base over things like FISA, the reward should have been gains with indies. Instead, he's apparently lost ground with them.
I'm not happy at all with his campaign so far...
On the idea that early polls aren't worth anything (Matt):
The purpose of 538, if I may be so bold to state it on Nate's behalf, is to use statistical methods to project the November results based on current polls. If this group of people were to completely take your advice ("None of these polls are worth a salt until after the conventions. We cannot predict anything right now. The middle of September we will take a look at the polls and have an idea where the race really stands."), this site would shut down.
Here's my two-fold argument against doing so. 1) What Nate/Poblano has been doing so far in this election has not only been interesting because there's been a level of accuracy (hope I'm choosing the right word!) in his projections that has been missing in many of the polls, it also has significant implications for how campaigns are viewed and thus run in the future. (See the 2012 evaluation and fundraising discussions on past threads.)
2. Like the sports pages, where I seek solace after painful losses, 538 offers me a way to handle what has become the most wrenching presidential election of my life. By turning my emotions down and thinking about the numbers (not my natural inclination), stability returns. At that point, I am able to turn to my strength--history--and use my intelligence to make sense of the rollercoaster that this election (and every baseball season) has become.
Thanks to Clark Miller for explaining some more to dummies like me and to Blame for excellent analysis. Now I have to run watch my daughters try to qualify for the Texas state swim meet.
46-47 Obama with Rasmussen. With leaners.
It is tied 43-43 without leaners...
Yeah and Gallup had Obama up 6 yesterday. When ras shows Obama leading, Gallup shows it a dead heat and vice versa.
My gut feeling is national polling means nothing, it`s state polling that counts and until October non of these polls mean all that much.
Research 2000 has done a new poll in Missouri for the St. Louis Post Dispatch which shows Barack Obama leading John McCain by 5 points:
Obama 48
McCain 43
Undecided 9
Here's a link to the new Missouri poll.
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/politics/story/84EC6E3C5EAE4FF586257484000FDDED?OpenDocument
I'm curious to see how this will effect the model.
I can just give you a vague idea, because I don´t know when the poll was taken, but I´d say it will boost the snapshot to McCain +0,5.
Without an eventual boost in the regression, but I´d say +0,5 is realistic.
I think it is a delicate tactic. Obama first targeted the left. Because he knew that he can not lose them, they just wont vote for McCain. Now he shifts to the center. In polls he loosing some points (b/c lefties are angry) however they still wont wote for McCain.
It is really just gaining ground and gethering force, and gaining some more. When he targets a group he loses elsewhere, but then he takes his time to reasure them.
On the otehr hand Obama does not need to attack McCain just yet. B/c now McCain has to push back harder and frightens everybody who does not like him. He should make himself likeable but just cant. He is an angry old man and more he is in the media more of it shows.
There are, just FYI, those of us who are life-long Republicans, and who thought McCain was definitely the best of the choices on offer in our party. But still would be classified overall for November as leaning towards Obama. Make of that what you will.
Matt, you said: "I must say I find the comments getting more interesting by the day. A lot of McCain supporters just dropping in to create noise. Does McCain actually have people going around posting spin?"
The answer is, yes. McCain is encouraging his supporters to spread propaganda on the Internet. In turn they get "McCain points". So don't be surprised if you read McCain talking points everywhere. Also, be on the lookout for Republicans posing as Democrats.
http://www.johnmccain.com/ActionCenter/BlogInteract/BlogInteract.aspx
A back-of-the-envelope calculation weighting the two polls for party ID (based on the assumption that Dems have about a 10 point party edge) would have had the first poll with around a 10-11 point Obama edge, and this current poll with a 6-7 point Obama edge.
My gut says this is closer to reality. Obama obviously did drop, but that drop wasn't nearly that large. If his drop in Independent support is real, this is culprit for his drop overall.
Nate, are there enough polls out there that release what the party ID differential is in their polls (both nationally and statewide) to get a good representation. It'd be interesting to know exactly what percentage of independents Obama has to win in each state. It'd also be interesting to try to get a 538 evaluation of where the parties stand.
In a state where Obama only has to win 30% of the Independents, I'd be a lot more willing to call it a safe, or perhaps stable, Obama state, even if he's only up 5. Essentially if there's some way to gauge how hard/soft each candidate's support is in each state, I think it should factor in to whether we think that state will flip later on. If Obama has 70%+ hard support and a 10 point lead, it would take an epic event to knock him out. 30% hard support with a 10 point lead, that state can still be swung.
16 Hard McCain
Has McCain been hanging out with Bob Dole?
Obama better get his ass in gear. All the maneuvering on the ground isn't going to matter a row of beans if Obama keeps getting hammered in the media every day. He better go hire some of Hillary's people and learn how to fight that battle.
Even if Barack is employing a "ground" strategy, you need to fight McCain every day in the media. The Flip Flop mantra has stuck now making any more shifts in position very risky. John Kerry let himself be swift boated and Obama is letting himself be painted. Imagine being called a flip flopper from McCain. Mr. Flip Flopper. But McCain waged a media battle and the press ran with it. So now Obama has to deal with a problem that should never have occurred.
He's given up a lot with this shift to the center, the left is pissed, he's lost maneuvering on future issues and he's being defined. Not to mention the small loss in poll support.
@Clark Miller:
I'm glad that you're trying to simplify things for people, but your understanding of statistics is giving you all the wrong numbers.
In your example with 11 red marbles and 1 blue marble...
You say the odds of getting 1 red and 1 blue is 1/11. Not true. The real odds are 1/6. The only condition that needs to be met for a 50/50 split in this model is the drawing of 1 red marble out of the two that you draw from the bag (since the other is guaranteed to be blue and not drawing a red marble gives you two blues, a failure). You draw two marbles, each of which has a 1 in 12 chance of being the red one, so the odds of either of them being red is 2 in 12 (1/6).
When you ask what the odds of drawing 4 straight red balls is...
You say the odds of drawing 4 straight red balls out of a bag of 6 blue and 6 red balls is 1.7%. Well, the real answer is about 3%. The odds of the first balls being red is 1/2 (6/12), the 2nd is 5/11, the third is 2/5 (4/10), and the 4th is 1/3 (3/9). Since each of these events must happen in order to draw 4 straight red balls, the odds are multiplied to give you 3%.
I think most of your conclusions are good and I like the idea of simplifying statistics, but you cannot lose sight of how to actually solve these sorts of problems, or you'll never be able to draw reasonable conclusions when presented them (just one man's overly-righteous view about statistics in America today).
To add one more thing in an attempt to make this sort of thing intuitive, like Clark did... with the first example, you can think about it like this:
You can take a full sampling of the marbles by dividing them up into pairs. Those pairs are the possible ways you can draw two marbles. You either get B/B (blue and blue) or B/R (blue and red). No matter how you divide the marbles up into pairs, one of the pairs is going to be B/R and the other 5 are going to be B/B. Try it. It's impossible to get another outcome. There in front of your eyes is every possible result of dividing 12 marbles of that composition up into 6 groups of two. Now you see, 1 in 6 of those pairs must contain a red marble.
Guys, most of us DO NOT want to get into the weeds about statistics. Leave the explaining to Nate, you guys suck at it.
We don't care that pie squared has an inverse relationship to Barack's lead in New Hampshire. Thats going too far into the weeds.
A somewhat off-topic comment/question: How do the daily tracking polls take into account weekend/weekday differences? (for example, it might be easier to reach working people during the weekend; similarly, the pollsters may sample a higher proportion of unemployed people during the weekdays).
I have noticed that there seems to be some evidence of weekly fluctuation in the Gallup data. For the last three weeks or so the race seems to tighten around the 2nd point following the weekly bars. On their longer term trend there seems to be some evidence of oscillations with period of ~1 week during and after May. It seems that Gallup has been using a three day average since June 8th, which presumably wouldn't average out fluctuations during the week. Granted, these fluctuations could be just coincidence/noise, but it may be interesting to see if this continues.
It will be interesting to see how this poll plays in the media. I mean, even Newsweek seems to question it's validity.
"Obama's overall decline from the last NEWSWEEK Poll, published June 20, is hard to explain. Many critics questioned whether the Democrat's advantage over McCain was actually as great as the poll suggested, even though a survey taken during a similar time frame by the Los Angeles Times and Bloomberg showed a similarly large margin. Princeton Survey Research Associates, which conducted the poll for NEWSWEEK, says some of the discrepancy between the two most recent polls may be explained by sampling error."
I am with the crowd here that sees Obama losing a point or two in the last week which is not surprising since the previous week saw the high water mark of Obama as flippity floppity with the "refine" news cycle.
Curious to see if we see a shift next week with McCain's "whinner" week.
Lyesmith, Matt - The flip-flopper/moving to the center is a complete invention of the media. Obama has generally held the same position for the past years.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/7/5/13146/00395/160/546980
It's people like you who are at fault for spreading this meme.
Obama still up by four in Gallup. We'll see next week if Obama bounce back up in th Rasmussen tracking.
Seems that if a pollster is weighting a poll based upon the pollster's belief of the make-up of the electorate, the poll is not actually random.
Pollsters seem to be more concerned with being accurate for the moment and not really letting the science of probability work in their polling.
Truly random polling would be better at picking up actual trends or movements of support, versus the weighted polls.
Just my thought.
Bruce
Nate you might want to update your post on the Newsweek poll. The first poll was NOT weighed by paritsan id (this put Dems with a 10+ advantage in terms of their share of the poll respondents). The poll Newsweek released today IS WEIGHED by partisan id (so even if 10+ of the respondents in the present poll were calling themselves Dems, Newsweek tuned them out and came up with its own partisan id sample size for the poll, substantially less than the unweighted poll from last month).
It doesn't really matter if Obama has Flip Flopped or not, he has been perceived as doing so to the credit of the McCain campaign. As much as we would like a respectful campaign on the issues, thats not what the cable news networks are going to cover, so we're left with the media spin game which the cable news networks do like to cover.(Apparently being full of shit gets better ratings. Having two surrogates from each side promote the party line is more important than covering issues)
John Kerry is a legitimate war hero and he was crucified in the media because the Swift boat attacks were excellent for ratings. Much like Jeremiah Right. If the GOP releases viscous anti Obama ads, whether its true or not, the MSM will love it and it will be played repeatedly for days. I don't like this stuff but if Obama has to go nuclear to win, do it. Screw the new politics, worry about that later.
And I must say its time for the left to shut up. Ariana Huffington is exactly what middle america hates about the democratic party. Every time I see her advocating for the Dems I cringe. She may be the nicest person in the world but she comes off as a latte drinking San Francisco liberal. Where did she get that accent. Every time she proclaims Obama doesn't need the center and needs to come home to the democratic party, Obama loses votes in Michigan, Ohio and Pennsylvania.
Matt asked
"I am not from a swing state. You are from Pennsylvania. On the ground in Pennsylvania, whats the word on Obama. How do the hard working folks in that state feel about him?
Chris Matthews mentions every day he thinks theres a "Bradley Effect" where white folks say to pollsters that they will vote for a black man and then don't."
First, for me personally, I live just outside of Philadelphia in a community that votes consistently 75-80% Democratic, and that will happen again this year. As for the five counties that make up the Pennsylvania portion of the Philadelphia metro area, they have been trending bluer for the past decade, and a tipping point has been reached in three of the four suburban counties, with more registered Democrats than Republicans for the first time ever.
In 2004, Kerry carried this region by almost 400,000 votes, which gave him enough to carry Pennsylvania by a decent margin. In 2008, the Philadelphia metropolitan area should provide at least that margin to Obama. There are some regions in the area that may have a "Bradley effect," but they will be drowned out by the rising Democratic tide.
As for the source of this tidbit, Chris Matthew, we know where his allegiances lie. There was little evidence of a Bradley effect in Pennsylvania during the primaries. Obama polled down around 6% according to the RCP average, and lost by around 9%, but that most likely was the undecided vote breaking to Clinton.
Obama will win big margins around Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, and will likely lose the "T" of Pennsylvania.
Matthews is trying to raise a perception that Pennsylvania is more competitive than the polls indicate, but that narrative has no merit. Any potential Bradley effect was minimal in the primary, and should not be a factor in the general.
I don't understand how any given polling decision could increase the precision of the poll while reducing its accuracy. Thanks in advance if someone would spell this out.
"Guys, most of us DO NOT want to get into the weeds about statistics. Leave the explaining to Nate, you guys suck at it."
Unlike Anon at 11:28, I don't speak for "most of us", only for myself. I appreciate very much the statisical discussions here, which I think is what separates this site from the flotsam and jetsam that is the rest of the political blogosphere. As someone who took statistics in college 10 years ago but has forgotten most of it, I say keep the stats discussions coming, even if they are sometimes wrong. There is always someone around to correct a mistaken explanation.
On the issue of poll weighting, while we usually think of Rasmussen as the "Gold Standard" in this regard, or at least the service that seems the most consistent in their weighting formulas, consider their 5/29 and 7/1 Connecticut polls, which went from a three point Obama lead to a 17 point lead. The outlier was probably the three point poll, but is just goes to show they even Rasmussen can come up with some rather screwy results, their commitment to historical weighting notwithstanding.
Douglas L. Barber
Here's a good article on accuracy vs. precision. Basically, accuracy is a measure of how close you are to the correct answer, and precision is a measure of how close you are to your other answers.
So, for example, if a pollster always guessed 50% Obama, 50% McCain, they would have perfect precision but lousy accuracy. Likewise, if they bias their results towards more of a 50/50 split, they gain precision but probably lose accuracy.
Modeler
Thanks for the explanation and link. That's what I needed to know!
I knew a man to whom bad things constantly happened. He was steadfastly sure that nothing he was doing was causing these outcomes. He was (I take it in my newfound verbal perspicacity) precise but inaccurate - and he's now dead.
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