7.28.2008

A Short List of Short Lists [UPDATED]

It is unclear whether Barack Obama's Vice Presidential search team is actually consolidating its list of choices or not. But the conventional wisdom is certainly consolidating. It being a slow news day -- and an equally slow polling day -- let's combine the names mentioned in four recent "short list" articles to see just what that CW says. The articles are as follows:

1. A Politico article which touts Tim Kaine's prospects and mentions three other candidates, published just moments ago.

2. A Wall Street Journal column from Saturday.

3. A New York Times piece published last week. Adam Nagourney's new piece at the New York Times.

4. And finally, Chris Cillizza's most recent Veepstakes entry.

For good measure, we'll also throw in the most recent odds from Intrade.



So, the media CW pretty clearly seems to be centered around four choices -- Kaine, Bayh, Biden and Sebelius -- probably in that order. The betting markets, which really don't have any other information to traffic on but the media speculation, have largely followed suit.

My sense is that Obama is somewhat more likely than is implied in these articles to throw everyone a curveball. These lists are not truly independent from one another, as everyone is talking to the same sources. But that may just be my wishful thinking as a partisan, as this blog officially still has a crush on Brian Schweitzer.

UPDATE: Added two more sources: a fresh article from the Washington Post -- which unhelpfully lists all nine candidates that we had listed originally -- and this bit of tea-leaf reading from MSNBC.

101 comments

Clintonian Sanjay said...

If Obama doesn't have the foresight to pick Clinton, he should at least pick Bayh (could help big time in India and shore up major foreign policy and economic credentials). On the other hand however, Bayh makes Kerry look like a rock star. But you don't need two incredible orators on the ticket to win.

BAYH!

al-urdun said...

Whatever happened to Richardson?

Anonymous said...

When I first saw this post, I thought, "Man, ANOTHER post not about polling, statistics, or general number geekiness." But then you put in a chart and that made me like it. And then I looked at the extended Romney post and saw that there was not one but TWO charts in that one. And so I wonder why you hide the best parts, the charts, below the break where people won't see them?

Sugerfunk said...

Methinks Richardson has some dirt in his bag.

ajb said...

al-urdun,

Among other things, I think Obama has been polling well enough among Hispanics that it doesn't seem necessary to add Richardson to the ticket to appeal to them.
Also, the Pew Hispanic poll that came out last week showed that Richardson isn't actually all that popular among Hispanics -- 32% favorable, 29% unfavorable among Hispanics registered to vote.

http://pewhispanic.org/files/reports/90.pdf

Anonymous said...

Um, how many electors does India have, Sanjay?

I would prefer a candidate who reinforces Obama's message of a fresh new start. Kaine seems like a great pick. I do agree that it could be someone not on this list, but I expect the Obama team would at least float the name to get some reaction, so I doubt whoever it is will be a complete surprise.

Stephen C. Rose said...

People who take Obama at his word and have followed him VERY closely will understand WHY Schweitzer is more likely than anyone on the drab list above. He is another Obama and Barack is too proud to pick someone he does not feel is an equal and not a toady. Go Brian! I even forgive him for calling people like me nut jobs for blogging about him.

zegota said...

Bleh, none of the above! Claudia Kennedy for VP!

Anonymous said...

I'm with you on Schweitzer -- even after Schweitzer's own comments about people forwarding his name (look it up). Schweitzer would be able to reassure a lot of the rural NRA crowd who are sick of the neocon foreign policy, sick of the trade deficits and debt, sick of the economy, but don't trust big city Democrats on an issue like guns, and will vote Republican because of this single issue.

Virginia Conservative said...

Toll Road Timmy?

AHAHAHAHAHA! Bring it on!

Michael said...

Nate, I take it you discount the article by Taegan Goddard that the Obama campaign floated the idea of former G.W. Bush Agriculture Secretary Ann Veneman for veep.

zegota said...

Bleh, none of the above! Claudia Kennedy for VP!

babagaia said...

You guys see McMc up by 4 in a national poll -how cool is he now?!

John M. said...

I would be happy with any of the top four. Bayh is the safest pick and checks the most boxes. My preference based on temperment and upside is Sebelius. I guess there are still too many die-hard Clinton supporters around for that to be likely; what a bummer to see gender issues damage a potential female VP. Biden provides a great counterbalance of experience and foreign policy cred alongside a high frequency of gaffes. He would have been my choice in the primary if not for Obama. Kaine I do not know as well. He seems bright, but is shorter on experience than Obama and pro-life.

Cugel said...

I thought this comment by Prof. Alan Abramowitz on Pollster.com about the strange USA Today/Gallup poll just released yesterday showing McCain at +4 was very useful, as it points out the problem with using likely voter screens in July, when nobody has a real clue who will vote in November:

"Alan Abramowitz:

How do you get from a 47-44 Obama lead among RVs to a 49-45 McCain lead among LVs?

A few quick calculations shows how. You have 900 RVs and 791 LVs, so that means that among your 109 UVs (that's unlikely voters according to Gallup) Obama leads McCain by a whopping 61% to 7%.

Putting it another way, according to Gallup 16% of registered Obama supporters are unlikely to vote compared with only 2% of registered McCain supporters.

Posted on July 28, 2008 4:12 PM


If 15-20% of Obama's supporters really don't bother to show up and vote in November, he will certainly lose, and so would almost any candidate since Reagan in 1980.

But, it's just ridiculous to assume that will happen.

Virginia Conservative said...

"Kaine I do not know as well. He seems bright, but is shorter on experience than Obama and pro-life."

First of all, hes not pro-life. At least not where it matters (in policy). He follows the Ted Kennedy mantra that while hes "Personally" opposed he won't seek to change the law. Same with his view on the death penalty. I.e., he has no moral courage.

Secondly, hes awful on the stump.

Third, hes not popular here and the legislature basically tells him to bug off whenever he wants something done. Hes weak.

Lastly, the only reason he won in 2005 was because our candidate was an idiot who ran ads comparing Kaine to Hitler.

TERRIBLE choice. But go ahead, Dems. He will be your Dan Quayle.

Robby said...

Schweitzer would be great...except who else in the Montana Democratic Party could do what Schweitzer has done? For a Democrat to be able to effectively govern in an overwhelmingly rural state with a Republican legislature is nothing short of miraculous, and until we can find someone else with that kind of political acumen I think he should stay put. Plus, the Lt. Governor there is Republican, so we'd lose that mansion, and wouldn't get to run for it again until 2012 (which is AFTER the district realignment).

Schweitzer, along with McCaskill (another potentially great VP choice), belongs in the "needed right where they are" category.

I wish to second, or third, the calls for Richardson. What the hell?!??! Energy Secretary in the Clinton Administration (gas prices?! hello?!?!), Ambassador to the United Nations (foreign policy experience!!!), was hand-picked by President George W. Bush to negotiate with the North Koreans over their nuclear program...I know he's a crappy campaigner, but to me that just says he'll do no harm.

I remember talking to my dad (a GOP-leaning libertarian) about the 2000 election, and how utterly incompetent Bush would be. His response? "That may be true, but no one can deny that Dick Cheney is an intelligent man." He went on to vote for Bush, if I recall.

I think Richardson would be the "Cheney" pick of 2008: not a guy that could win on his own, but a competent guy that reassures independents about the ticket as a whole.

Virginia Conservative said...

Schwitzer is very impressive but he won't do it.

He knows Obama will lose, and wants to run in 2012. I would be very very scared of a Schwitzer as a Presidential candidate. He'd beat us really badly, and he knows it. He doesn't want to be on a losing ticket.

Anonymous said...

thanks for that Cugel
I'd have to say you are the number one poster on this site. Your posts are almost always about the original post by Nate or Sean, and they are not just opinion. You routinely answer questions by other posters with insight and other sources (like the pollster.com article on this last post), and you articulate your thoughts very well.

Anonymous said...

Babagaia, that's only if you think a likely voter screen is a wise idea three months before the election. Especially one that says young people won't turn out. The registered voters model shows Obama still ahead, which is more in line with Gallup's tracking poll (48-40 Obama).

Anonymous said...

It's Richardson or Kaine. Take it to the bank.

babagaia said...

And Schweitzer? Seriously? (in a jon stewart-type voice)
What are you smoking, Nate?
1.What did the guy do to help Obama get nominated?
And 2. How would he enable Obama to govern effectively from Washington?

(two aspects of the vp selection that the media- and now 538, it seems- don't understand)

Anonymous said...

these comments about the certainty of Obama losing by conservatives is so idiotic. This site is about facts and polling- each indicate Obama will win (64.4% chance).
Yes maybe Clinton wouldn't want to be on an Obama ticket for her chances at a WH run- she'd be old if he won and she had to run in 8 years.
But Schweitzer? If Obama wins- he'd be the likely pick in 8 years since a VP is usually the candidate with the best chance- especially if Obama had done well.
And if Obama loses it won't tarnish his image. He can run later- and his appeal as you said would make him a good candidate.

Virginia Conservative said...

How can Kaine help him govern effectively?

Timmeh's transportation plan got literally two votes in the legislature, not even his own party here supports him anymore. No wonder hes looking for the escape hatch.

Virginia Moderate said...

I'm not sure why Obama wants Kaine so badly. He's already going to win Virginia, and the election, without him.

Despite what "Virginia Conservative" may think, Va. is fast putting itself in the Democratic column. And there's really no turning back once it happens.

I can't even remember the last time that a top-ticket Republican won a statewide Virginia election that wasn't a Presidential election. Eight years ago, I suppose.

Virginia Conservative said...

Go check Timmy's approval ratings. They're somewhere around 43%. Hes not Mark Warner, get over it.

Robby said...

I hate to be superficial, but Kaine's haircut bugs me. He looks like one of those guys that doesn't want to admit he's balding, he keep those 18 hairs on the top of his head as long as possible to compensate.

I know appearance is the dumbest rubric for picking an important elected official, but I can't help but cringe whenever I see a picture of Governor Kaine.

Anonymous said...

Robby, wait until you see the weird thing he does with his eyebrow.

moondancer said...

I like Kaine for the geography. He likely ices the cake on Va and could do interesting things in NC and possibly WV. Even though my family lives in Va, I have no feeling for the guy except he came out early for Obama, and my family who are die hard republicans voted for him. (and did not vote for Webb)

ThomasJefferson said...

How does one define a Virginia Conservative? Someone who sleeps with his sister, but not his brother....

Will Marshall said...

Given that:
(i) Obama's camp is generally leak-free,
(ii) the one leaker the camp had was fired within the first few weeks, and
(iii) the Obama camp seem to be purposefully misdirecting Press etc by talking about candidates like Ann Vennemen...

...why do we think any of the names under discussion here are at all likely?

I wonder if there's a piece of investigative journalism to be done by phoning the top 200 Democratic Party members and askign them if they've been vetted? I bet it turns up at least 10 names that have never made the press. And my further bet would be that the eventual nominee is one of those.

evie said...

I've said for a long time that I believe it's going to be Kaine. He just fits -- early Obama supporter, not in the Congress, closer in age to Obama than McCain. When it became clear to me that he couldn't pick a woman other than HRC, that meant Sebelius was out and Kaine was left.

However, the leaks today from his office I'm sure don't do Kaine any favors in getting the job. The Obama people are ruthlessly leak-proof, and in the first test as a possible VP, people close to him are already leaking. Probably not a deal killer, but it gives the whole process pause. None of these choices are a slam dunk and they all have the ability to create havoc at some point in the next three months.

Craig in VA said...

I really hope it isn't Kaine. He's a completely mediocre governor - hasn't done anything terrible, but hasn't accomplished anything of note either.

The media narrative that he could secure VA seems flawed. It's doubtful whether he could have won the governorship on his own had it not been for Mark Warner's coattails. Warner and Webb have popularity of their own, but all Kaine can contribute is name recognition and party apparatus.

Outside VA, he'd likely dampen enthusiasm for the ticket a little. I can't imagine anyone getting genuinely excited about him.

Anonymous said...

Kaine didn't win because of Mark Warner. He won because Kilgore ran negative ads about Hitler.

Virginia Moderate said...

Go check Timmy's approval ratings. They're somewhere around 43%. Hes not Mark Warner, get over it.

Lies. And why are you lying, conservative? Why so scared? I'm getting the sense that Republicans are afraid of Tim Kaine joining the ticket. His latest approval actually came in at 56%, with positive approval among almost every demographic group in Virginia.

Virginia Moderate said...

The only 3 groups Kaine has negatives with are Pro-Lifers (42% support), Republicans (39% support), and conservatives (32% support).

Kaine's best support lies among moderates (67% support) and those who live in Hampton Roads (62% support).

abigail said...

Re: Schweitzer.
Obama hearts Montana in a curious (and charming) way. His chief of Staff Jim Messina was the MT Senator Baucus's chief of staff until he took the post with Obama. I wonder if there is something subliminal there.

Virginia Conservative said...

Thats an old poll. His numbers are lower now. His transportation bill was and the extended session of the legislature was a political disaster for him. Try to follow Richmond a little more closely.

ajb said...

Thanks, vm. That's an interesting poll.
Some things stand out:
Approval among whites: 53-43
among Republicans: 39-57
among independents: 57-30
among moderates: 67-27
among men: 51-44

In other words, Kaine might help Obama in VA with some very important groups.

That said, I still think the choice is (and should be) made more on the basis of who will be good at the job, than of who will help the ticket win.

Virginia Moderate said...

Thats an old poll. His numbers are lower now.

Virginia Conservative, surely you can link us to these lower numbers? Or maybe you're just an idiot? Which is it? I'm waiting. Let's see the numbers, dimwit.

Virginia Conservative said...

Look here.

Don said...

Bayh has the advantage, as I've heard it said elsewhere, of being the boring White guy. He won't steal any thunder or distract from he star attraction. He'd also be a compentant President if something happened to Obama. But Obama is looking long term I think, and is very aware of the fact that the VP grooms the next potential Democratic nominee for President.

I am also surprised that Richardson is not even on the pundits lists. He would be a compentent President even if he is a lackluster campaigner. He would be a very useful adjunct in the White House, knowledgeable about foreign affairs, expert on energy policy. He would also be a good candidate in 2016 as bring Texas blue becomes more important in future cycles (it will gain electoral votes after the next census). And this cycle he would help regionally with the Southwest. He is out there hit the trails working for Obama and hinting he wants the job.

Yes Schwietzer should be on the list too, and might help with Colorado and Nevada.

And I still like the long shot of Zinni.

Edward III said...

The way I see it, Obama's VP choices should be considered in the following order, as these are the best matches of who will help him govern and who will help him get elected:

1. Evan Bayh
2. Tim Kaine
3. Hillary Clinton

Evan Bayh and Tim Kaine seriously should be considered because they are generally lauded for their voting record, considered moderates, and should help with the white, working class vote, particularly in swing states. We all know what Hillary brings to the table, good and bad, but at least it would motivate her supporters.

I don't like the choices of Bill Richardson and Joe Biden. Biden has often been outspoken and is too "on the record" with a voting record that leans a little too far left to reach out to moderates.

Bill Richardson is a good guy, but a ticket with a 1/2 black, 1/2 white guy joined by a 3/4 hispanic, 1/4 other? guy might stir the pot a little too much in terms of racial identity. We've come a long way as a country, and I don't mean for this to sound wrong, but 70+% of this country is still predominantly white, and they'd like to be able to identify (racially) with at least one of the two men (women?).

evie said...

Richardson won't be it because he's a gaffe machine and because he didn't handle the Clintons well around the endorsement. They are going to have a hard enough time getting over not getting picked; accepting Richardson may be an ask too far.

Another Mike said...

Obama really seems to be pushing the idea of bipartisanship. A Republican is too much however. Thus, someone who has a reputation for working with Republicans and is moderate to conservative seem likely. Looking at the intrade odds, I'd go long on Nunn, although Bayh is my guess. Too bad Warner removed himself from contention--he's perfect.

Anonymous said...

There's no way it will be Schweitzer. Surely the Obama team has seen his career-killing interview in the New York Times magazine:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/08/magazine/08governor.html?pagewanted=all

"Schweitzer remains an iconoclast; he says he supported John McCain's presidential bid in 2000, though he has since soured on McCain because of the way he has courted the religious right, and he says he is now intrigued by the possibility of a presidential run by Mitt Romney, the Republican governor of Massachusetts, in 2008. 'If he gets the nomination, I might support him,' Schweitzer told me."

There's no way Obama would pick someone who says that kind of weird shit.

Another Mike said...

Obama really seems to be pushing the idea of bipartisanship. A Republican is too much however. Thus, someone who has a reputation for working with Republicans and is moderate to conservative seem likely. Looking at the intrade odds, I'd go long on Nunn, although Bayh is my guess. Too bad Warner removed himself from contention--he's perfect.

Virginia Moderate said...

Wow. You truly are a dimwit. Kaine's numbers were 46/30 in that poll, very similar to the 56/39 in SUSA. It might have helped if you hadn't linked to your dimwit blog to explain (incorrectly) the numbers as negative. They were positive.

I'll give you a hint. Subtract 30 from 46 and you get +16 approval ratings in your linked poll. Subtract 39 from 56 and you get +17 approval in my linked poll.

The only difference is that one includes leaners, the other does not. Don't follow Va. politics much, huh?

Robby said...

Can we link sources, people? Here's the most recent Kaine approval numbers I can find:

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/PPP_Release_Virginia_618.pdf

46% approve, 30% disapprove (the GOPers leave that number out in their crowing press releases on the subject), 24% not sure

Source: PPP, June 14-16, 893 likely voters, MOE +/- 3.3%

And to Virginia Moderate, chill; that tone isn't necessary for this discussion.

Virginia Conservative said...

46% approval is not a good number no matter how you spin it.

If hes such a dynamic governor what happened to his transportation plan? Not even the Democrat State Senate would let it see the light of day!

Willis said...

Virginia may not be ready to turn blue just yet

Can't ever count on OH (bradley effect)

Does Schweitzer help with the big sky states other than Montana?

Virginia Moderate said...

Warner and Webb have popularity of their own, but all Kaine can contribute is name recognition and party apparatus.

Craig, as Virginia Conservative unwittingly pointed out, Kaine is more popular in Va. than is Webb. Kaine has +16 to +17 approvals these days in Virginia, whereas Webb is more in the +10 to +11 range.

Virginia Conservative said...

George Allen, who lost in 2006, had better numbers than that for God's sake.

Again, why didn't he get his transporation plan passed? His own party should be falling over themselves to support it if hes so wildly popular, but they ran away from it.

Webb is over-rated, too. Only the Northeast punditocracy like him, he has mediocre popularity at best in this state. He won election but less than one half of one percent despite the political suicide of George Allen.

Virginia Moderate said...

46% approval is not a good number no matter how you spin it.

Actually, it's +16 positive approval with or without leaners. Do you know anything about what a "leaner" is? I'd be shocked if McCain got to even 40% in Virginia polled that way.

And even as you tried to do the opposite, you have shown Kaine's approval is overwhelmingly positive in Virginia. Thank you for the additional data to support my conclusion.

ajb said...

Looking at the internals of the PPP poll, it suggests that, while Kaine's support may be more partisan than it had been before, it's at the same overall level.

PPP vs. SUSA:

Approval with Dems: +48 +30
Approval with Reps: -30 -18
Approval with Other: +14 +27


PPP also shows Kaine as more popular with whites, and less popular with blacks, than does SUSA. If that's meaningful, it's probably not a big deal for Obama, who presumably will do just fine at getting out the African-American vote in VA.

Virginia Conservative said...

I'd like to know your thoughts on the extended session of the legislature, the death of Timmy's transportation plan, and why it happened.

Virginia Moderate said...

George Allen, who lost in 2006, had better numbers than that for God's sake.

You really have no idea what you're talking about, do you? It's so darned cute watching your small conservative brain try to argue.

Did you notice that Kaine was +16 in your poll and Webb was only +11? Did you miss the part where Webb is more popular than Allen?

James said...

It seems we have a battle going on somewhere in Virginia tonight. I think it will be Sebilius, mostly because Obama likes to brag about his red state appeal and because she's a woman. Being a conservative however, my opinion doesn't mean much about the Democratic VP.

Virginia Conservative said...

He also failed to get anyone else on his ticket (Lt. Governor, Attorney General) elected in 2005. They're both Republicans, as is one house of the legislature (the other 50/50) and by far the vast majority of our Congressional delegation. And thats counting Rick Boucher as a "Democrat" even though he votes like a Republican.

So spare me the prattling about how Virginia is "turning blue". In the 80s we consistently elected Democrat governors and a Democrat Senator and still went for Reagan and Bush I both times.

Klaus said...

Goddamn, the GOPer trolls on this site are incompetent. It's no wonder you morons fucked up the country.

James said...

Klaus,
Have some civility and stop spouting hate. Try to stay on topic too. Go spew your hate somewhere else.

Klaus said...

I have to say though, Tim Kaine seems like a lackluster choice. He's just not that exciting and doesn't really bring any expertise to the ticket. That's not knocking him, I just don't think he's right for a national election. He seems to fit into that Phil Bredesen/Bill Ritter mold of competent governors who are destined to be nothing more than competent governors.

If Obama wants to go Souther, he should pick Sam Nunn. Anyone with anything more than walnut rattling around their skull respects the hell out of the man, and given that Obama has basically modeled his foreign policy views on Nunn, it seems like they'd be a good fit.

Klaus' Nemesis said...

Goddamn, the liberal trolls on this site are incompetent. It's inevitable you morons will fuck up the country worse than it already is.

babagaia said...

evie: the idea that obama can't pick a woman is more CW-bull - is it more sexism at work I wonder .
Also, I don't buy the 'Bayh is uncharismatic ' line that others bring up - he was charismatic enough to keep Obama from winning the Indiana primary, wasn't he?

babagaia said...

Love Klaus and his 'nemesis'- keep up the banter!

Klaus said...

My dear nemesis, the fact that the GOP's trolls can't come up with original zingers points to why your ideology is destined for the dustbin of history: dull, uninspired, ineffective.

Get ready for eight loooooooong years of President Hussein Obama.

evie said...

babagaia -- I agree, it is sexist. And I railed against it myself early on because it's exactly the opposite message Clinton's campaign was trying to send. But I've also seen it first hand with my mother and her friends. Perhaps he could still get away with it, but I'm guessing it's more of a risk than he is willing to take.

Cugel said...

Here's some more on the Prof. Alan Abramowitz v. Gallup debate about the recent Gallup flip-flop -- their daily tracker poll of RV with a sample size of over 3000 gave Obama a +8 lead, while their poll with USA Today released the same day with Likely Voters gave McCain a -4 lead. Now there's some feedback from Gallup:

"And Abramowitz notes that this isn't the first time Gallup has courted controversy in calculating "likely" voters. "Eight years ago the Gallup organization got in hot water for using a likely voter screen several weeks before Election Day that produced wild fluctuations in candidate preference. At one point, the Gallup tracking poll went from an 8 point Gore lead to an 11 point Bush lead in three days. Of course, this was nonsense. The wild swings in the tracking poll were almost entirely caused by the likely voter screen. Those results were not to be believed. And neither are these."

Jeff Jones of the Gallup Poll pushes back on Abramowitz's critique of their joint USA Today poll by noting that the voter model "assumes a 60 percent voter turnout of national adults. The likely voter sample is weighted to match this assumption, so the weighted sample size of likely [voters] is 604."

Therefore, Jones says Obama's lead among "unlikely voters" is merely 51 percent to 21 percent.

Still, that's a huge margin. And it begs the question: How useful is it to try to estimate, 100 days out from the election, which registered voters are likely to vote -- especially when they favor one candidate so dramatically?


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/07/28/two-gallup-polls-
one-day_n_115473.html

The problem with Gallup's "push-back" on this is that their turnout model is based on 2004! It assumes a 60% turnout, which is highly unlikely given the increasing voter registration since then and the likelyhood of a closely contested campaign, plus the clear surge in voter participation in the primaries.

A 62% or even 63% turnout is more likely which would make their sample pretty off-base!

(Take a look at Nate's "World's Simplest Election Projection" spreadsheet available on this site, and see that he assumes about 62% turnout for both parties.

That's a conservative estimate since Democratic registration is way up this year and Obama is putting a lot of effort into registering new voters. Plus black voters likely to be drawn to an Obama candidacy have traditionally lower turnout than Whites, so there's more room to improve turnout there. Hispanics are the real wild-card, since their turnout is particularly low and any significant increase among Hispanic voters on election day would mean an Obama tidal-wave election.

None of this is reflected in Gallup's turnout model or likely voter screen, which is why their RV polling is much more reliable at this point in the election.

Does Obama really have a +8% lead? Probably not, but how much less we simply don't know at this point, and relying on RV polls at least gives us a trend-line to see how the race is going.

Rasmussen, using one of their NUMBER of likely voter screens, which get progressively harder as the election approaches, has Obama's lead at +3. However, no likely voter screen means much at this point in my biased opinion.

Nemesis said...

Klaus,

You're right, it will be eight looooooooong years.

That is, unless his presidency ushers in the tribulation and end of days....which, the last I checked, was scheduled to be seven years.

Nemesis said...

Damn, that Cugel dude sucks serious donkey balls. He posts the longest, most inane bullshit on this site.

Hey, dude, no one gives a flying F to read that much garbage. Brevity is what works in this forum.

If you can't write a post in less than the amount of time it takes to shake your dick after a good piss, then you need to go somewhere else.

Klaus said...

Haha, I've got to agree with my nemesis here.

Ezzie said...

To me, Schweitzer is not only a better shot than he's given, he's the obvious choice.

First, since the media doesn't give him any credence, his choice will attract that much more positive media attention. And since the studies seem to show that Obama gets more coverage -- but substantially more negative coverage -- that extra could really help.

But leaving that aside he's still the best choice. I'd disagree with a comment I think was yours, Nate, that a Schweitzer choice would be defensive.

Picking the Governor of Montana is a signal Obama's going hard after the Upper Plains. And what could be more aggressive than trying to win states Bush took by 25%?

Really, the media lines coming out of that could be wonderful. Instead of people raised on Democratic dominance in Dixie wondering how the Dems can win without the South, you get people worrying about how the Republicans can win if even North Dakota is competitive.

In terms of party personnel use, its extremely effective. Unless Baucus is planning on retiring soon, Schweitzer has nowhere to go in Montana but to . . . the house?

Many of the DNC candidates will be strategic losses. Bayh means an RNC Senator, Sebelius means losing a very good shot at a DNC Senator. Schweitzer wouldn't be, unless you're a Montanan who wants a great Governor.

It reinforces Obama's change mantra. The experience issue, to me, seems to be a mask. Like "flip flopper" four years ago, its something that people who already are predisposed to dislike you cite as the reason because they can't think of why they oppose you on the merits.

Bias of anecdotes surely, but I've not met a single person who's hard into experience that's not a natural Republican learner and unlikely to flip unless St. Reagan himself returns and endorses the man.

Selecting a safe pick like Biden, despite his foot-in-mouth disease, might placate those voters, but I doubt they're likely to come around to you in the first place.

Finally, Schweitzer would appear to be one of the candidates we can actually expect to have an impact on his region. He's got Mark Warner level approval. The effect of VPs is sorely overrated, but if anyone is going to swing his state, Warner aside, its Schweitzer.

Certainly, Kaine's approval isn't likely to move people. Is his ground game that strong?

Cugel said...

Hey, dude, no one gives a flying F to read that much garbage. Brevity is what works in this forum.

If you can't write a post in less than the amount of time it takes to shake your dick after a good piss, then you need to go somewhere else.


I'm sorry you have a brain the size of a walnut and can't read words of more than one syllable! And posts longer than one paragraph strain your gnat-like attention span!

Perhaps YOU should go somewhere else since this is a site devoted to POLLING METHODOLOGY and my post was a discussion what an expert said about POLLING METHODOLOGY!

Get a clue loser!

Will said...

It's astonishing that from these articles, this post, and all these comments, nobody mentions Wesley Clark.

Besides one minor gaffe, Clark is a perfect ticket-filler, as you've written before. military man, bonafide progressive, clintonite, experienced, and an excellent surrogate.

Obama's 'curveball' will be Wes Clark.

Chris said...

If Obama doesn't pick Clinton, get ready for Obama to lose a few points. This VP pick is more fraught than normal for the Dem. presumptive nominee. Usually, a VP announcement yields 2-4 days of boffo coverage. But when Clinton doesn't get picked, how hard will it be for the media to not go find some of her supporters saying "What?!?" Especially the less-informed Clinton supporters, many of whom are supporting Obama now because they assume he'll pick Clinton. And Kaine? Someone with almost as little experience in major office as Obama? There will be Clinton supporter Dem. backlash with this pick, but it will help Obama in Virginia. But people need to realize, if it isn't Clinton, there will be major backlash in some quarters, resulting in negative press.

ajb said...

Another point, of course, is that whoever is chosen automatically becomes one of the frontrunners for the next open Democratic presidential nomination, whether that's in 2012 or 2016. You don't want to choose someone as VP whom you wouldn't want to see succeed you as president (unless you're Bush, and choose Dick Cheney). A choice that is safe and bland and unremarkable is kind of a waste of an incredible boost to that person's future political prospects. And someone who doesn't really want to be president (and there may actually be a few senators and governors who don't want the top job) is also a waste of the position.


I suspect that's actually why Jack Reed isn't being considered -- maybe he just doesn't want to be president that badly.

Anonymous said...

What about Wes Clark?

Anonymous said...

OBAMA-BLOOMBERG '08 IS THE MAGIC TICKET! I bet on that one...

Anonymous said...

The person attacking Cugel may have missed the person anointing him the best poster at the beginning of the post...
Anonymous said...
thanks for that Cugel
I'd have to say you are the number one poster on this site. Your posts are almost always about the original post by Nate or Sean, and they are not just opinion. You routinely answer questions by other posters with insight and other sources (like the pollster.com article on this last post), and you articulate your thoughts very well.

I'd agree-Cugel is a great poster. If you don't want to read a long post- DONT. Let him post what he wants- he isn't rude- disparaging to others- nor does he stoop to racist or insincere levels.
He is a good poster

Anonymous said...

The person attacking Cugel may have missed the person anointing him the best poster at the beginning of the post...
Anonymous said...
thanks for that Cugel
I'd have to say you are the number one poster on this site. Your posts are almost always about the original post by Nate or Sean, and they are not just opinion. You routinely answer questions by other posters with insight and other sources (like the pollster.com article on this last post), and you articulate your thoughts very well.

I'd agree-Cugel is a great poster. If you don't want to read a long post- DONT. Let him post what he wants- he isn't rude- disparaging to others- nor does he stoop to racist or insincere levels.
He is a good poster

WTF said...

this site is infested with left wing & right wing nuts

Obama is a going to win it like it or not

Fu** off trolls

babagaia said...

Nemesis: Cugel is Nate's 'attack dog' running mate in this election. He brings the state of coma-boredom to the ticket, too. Give him some respect!

p.s. define 'good piss'.

Off-topic alert: where has Senor Nines gotten to? and that cool Poblano guy? (I miss him)

Anonymous said...

If Obama throws a curveball for VP, who could he choose that would actually surprise us?

Ann Veneman's been touted, so no one would be surprised by a moderate Republican choice, even a former Bush cabinet secretary or governor.

Colin Powell's been speculated on, as has Mike Bloomberg.

Every Democratic Senator and Governor under 70 has been on someone's short list.

So who could surprise us at this point?

Well, here's some picks no one's talking about:

1) Joe Lieberman
2) Jesse Jackson
3) Ross Perot
4) Dick Cheney

Maybe we don't want a curveball after all...

MS said...

Kaine is a Terrible choice. I and Most of the Virginia Democrats I know are hoping and praying that Kaine isn't the pick.

Firstly because Virginia Democrats are HORRIFIED at the prospect of Tim Kaine abandoning his post. If he becomes the Vice President, an extremely conservative Lieutenant Governor will inherit the Virginia Governor's mansion. Virginia will be saddled with the terrible, terrible Bill Bolling for a full Two Years! As much as VA Democrats want Obama to win, they don't want Bolling to inherit the Governor's mansion. Some independents may even use this as rationale to vote against an Obama Kaine ticket.

As for Kaine's political ability, he truly has a tin ear to populist politics. Kaine was largely blamed for a horribly designed (and horribly regressive) speeding fine system put in place two years ago. It was so poorly thought out that first offenders found going as little as 10 miles over the speed limit could face a massive $1000 fine. The system became so unpopular that barely a month after its passage many state legislators started plans to repeal the bill. Kaine didn't get on board with the repeal. He completely ignored the issue. He signed the repeal, but never got credit for it. Yes, in the big picture it was an inconsequential issue. That doesn't change the fact that it was probably the single most covered state political issue last year.

How bad is Kaine's tin ear? The new highway bill he endorsed this month included an INCREASE in Virginia's Gasoline Tax! Yes, he endorsed an increase in the gas tax just as gas surged above $4 per gallon... A small increase, but an increase none the less. Personally, I think he was set up by Republican state legislators. Which is yet another reason not to go with Kaine. He has continually been played by Republican legislators. He's also terrible at getting his own legislation enacted. He's championed a ban on smoking in restaurants for the past two years, on each occasion he was shot down.

Thirdly, Kaine just isn't a very good speaker. I suppose he's better than McCain, but that isn't saying much. Compared to Obama's speaking skills, Kaine is a rank amateur. Most of the '08 Democratic presidential hopefuls are better speakers than Kaine. I've seen Kaine speak in person, for that reason alone I wouldn't pick him for VP.

Worst of all, I don't think Kaine will have any meaningful influence on Virginia's presidential vote. The major factor for Obama in Virginia is getting out the black vote. Virginia is 20% black. Tim Kaine is unlikely to influence that metric in any meaningful way. Obama should focus a huge Get Out The Vote effort in Virginia, he doesn't need a Virginian as VP.

I think Obama is tempted to pick Kaine for a number of bad reasons. Obama and Kaine seem to truly get along. Both their families are from the same small town in Kansas. Kaine was (I think) the first Governor to endorse Obama. Kaine REALLY wants the job because if Kaine isn't chosen as VP, his political career will likely end in two years time. VA Governors are term limited and each of our Senators are likely to be Democrats in 2010. Kaine will have no where to go.

None of those are good reasons to pick Kaine as VP. Obama should promise Kaine a cabinet position when his gubernatorial term expires in 2010. He doesn't need Kaine as VP.

counsellorben said...

Anonymous @6:54p (and I will not miss starting a comment this way),

Thanks for the link to the NY Times Magazine article on Brian Schweitzer.

However, after reading it, I see an even more compelling reason to pick Schweitzer as Obama's VP candidate ... energy policy!

The Republicans have selected energy policy as their wedge issue for 2008, and already have trotted out what I would assume is Frank Luntz's focus group tested slogan, "Find more, use less."  Aside: I went to Penn at the same time as Frank, and I still remember his columns in the Daily Pennsylvanian (shudder!).

Schweitzer can fight back hard, with his sensible proposals for alternatives to petroleum, and he has the ability to explain his concepts in a simple, direct manner.

I'm definitely a "nutball," and I share the 538 crush on Brian Schweitzer, but I think he can single-handedly neutralize the "drill more" wedge issue with his forthright approach to solving the critical issue of US energy independence.

"Kingfish" Slaney Black said...

Klaus: You say he shouldn't pick Kaine is because he's a snoozer... then you say he should pick Sam Nunn? Huh???? How about he shouldn't pick Hillary Clinton because she's too dirty, so he should just go ahead and pick Hoffa instead?

Ezzie said...

For Wes Clark to be VP, for me, you need to be willing to use Rovian tactics, and be confident in so doing. If he's the choice, we'll hear about McCain's service non-stop. So he'll almost have to kneecap McCain on the issue to keep from being a drag on the ticket.

Of course, if he succeeds in a "getting shot down doesn't qualify you to lead a country" line of attack, McCain could lose big.

But there's no electoral advantage to winning big versus winning small - Obama's just as much President in either case. If it reduces his chance of winning and increases his chance of winning big - its dumb. With the exception a total landslide might bring him the majority he'd need to minimize Republican interference.

On the plus side - he's an outsider, a Clintonite, led a campaign with approximately 0% of the deaths in Iraq. If we ever get to going on about his strengths, it'll be good.

I like the thought of Colin Powell, but I think that also depends on how comfortable with spin are you. Can you play his trip to the UN before Iraq as a loyal soldier doing what his President ordered him to do based on faulty info, or is that a huge wedge to give the loony left and McCain?

prof424 said...

MS...Good to hear from a sane Virginian on here. It seems like this board has been taken over by talking point trolls...ugh.

I'm from Richmond and lived blocks away from Tim Kaine when he was a city councilman representing my district, and while he was Mayor of Richmond and Lieutenant Governor. He is a great guy, but I will add to some of the points you made.

I know he has had some issues with governing, but the problem lies mostly with House Speaker Bill Howell and the anti-tax, anti-transportation Republicans in the House of Delegates. They have blocked everything that Kaine has tried to do in order to improve Virginia's dilapadated road system. You know how badly roads in Northern Virginia and Hampton Roads are, while projects go unfunded and developers continue to build with regard to land usage.

Kaine pushed so much for the gas tax because it is clearly the most equitable way to fund road projects and establish a consistent stream of revenue for large-scale projects and services (i.e. Metro). The Republicans endorsed the failed abuser fees and regional authorities, and they suffered a lot at the ballot box last fall, but it wasn't enough to take away the GOP House majority. However, Kaine deserves SO much credit for restoring Democratic control to the Senate. They knew any tax bill would get rejected in the House, so that is why the bill didn't go anywhere. Kaine has led on this issue, as well as Pre-K education and refining government transparency. The Republicans, who are still smarting after they felt Mark Warner got too much shine thanks to moderate Republicans, are trying to blunt any advantage Kaine can have. I don't think Kaine is ineffective, but he has been limited by anti-progress Republicans who have no solutions and sign anti-tax pledges just to make themselves look good. That isn't governing, and that's why Northern Virginia voters have embraced Democrats--and even the business organizations which leaned Republicans abhor the statewide GOP candidates. Don't even get me started on people like Ken Cuccinelli, Morgan Griffith, and Howell...they are the worst.

I am also horrified about the prospect of Lt. Gov. Bill Bolling becoming governor. First, we would have no transportation plan for the forseeable future. Higher education funding would be gutted. Grover Norquist would probably have a guest bedroom in the Governor's Mansion as long as Bolling is there (shudder). However, this might be a good thing if Creigh Deeds is the Democratic gubernatorial nominee next year. Deeds runs well in rural areas and the Shenandoah Valley, and if there is a backlash in Northern Virginia and Deeds swamps Bolling there, Bolling would have no chance. If Attorney General Bob Attorney, whom I find even more frightening, decides to run for re-election as Attorney General--the Democratic nominee would have a good chance of knocking him off. We could get rid of both Bolling and McDonnell in one election cycle, but I still would like Kaine to be there so Democrats can craft a cohesive agenda that warrants a Deeds victory.

Democrats HAVE to take back control of the House of Delegates in either 2009 or 2011, and they must have a Democratic governor to modify the Congressional district boundaries and get rid of that artificially high 8-3 Republican edge in the U.S. House delegation.

However, I have to disagree with you about Kaine's speaking abilities. I think he is amazing, and when the tragedy at Virginia Tech occured last year, he gave such an inspiring and gracious speech.

Tim Kaine is extremely popular in the African-American community, especially in the City of Richmond and the surrounding counties. I think he could make a big difference in Henrico County, a traditionally Republican county which has become way more moderate in the past decade. It is also nearly 30 percent African-American, and voter turnout here would grow exponentially with a popular Democrat like Kaine on the ticket. Chesterfield will be a stretch, but if Obama could get above 40-41 percent there, it would be great. To non-Virginians, that may seem like a low mark, but Chesterfield is a strongly Republican county with a history of tense race relations. However, Obama won with 71 percent in the Democratic Primary, and the county is only 19 percent African-American. This is a mixed white-collar and blue-collar county, and if Obama can make inroads here, it will make a BIG difference statewide.

Lastly, picking Kaine would almost ensure that Virginia would go for Obama. I think a lot of on-the-fence moderates in the state, especially in the Northern Virignia exurbs, would instantly gravitate to the ticket. Traditional GOP voters in suburban Richmond might take an extra look at the ticket, and Kaine would help in military-rich Hampton Roads. Kaine sweeped the area handily in 2005 during his gubernatorial run, and is his strongest area of the state (polling-wise).

Right now, I'm conflicted about Kaine. He's a GREAT guy, intelligent, and a has a wealth of experience. He has been moderately successful, but doesn't really have a defining issue as governor and lacks foreign policy credentials (however, Mark Warner lacked this trait as well--even though a lot of people thought he was a better pick). Also, like I said before, I don't want a Governor Bill Bolling either.

Virginia has shaped to be THE state to watch this election, and I'm so glad it is finally a swing-state on the presidential level.

Michael said...

heard from a source tonight that Kaine, while well liked, may be a no-go due to the fact that the Governorship would change party control. Some fear this might alienate voters in VA, especially Dem's who do not want to lose control of state politics.

Also, hearing a bit of chatter about Joe Biden, more so than Bayh, Dodd, Nunn, or others. I would bet right now, 50-50 that Biden is the pick, announced sometime around August 18

David said...

@Michael,

Exactly!

You're damn right it would alienate Democrats in Virginia. A selection of Kaine would be a slap in the fact to many Virginia Democrats. We didn't work to elect Kaine just to have half his term gifted to the Republicans.

There are a tremendous number very able Democrats in our nation. Why choose the ONLY one that results in gifting a governor's mansion to the Republicans? ? ?

It just doesn't make sense.

Were this about New York or California, I don't think Obama consider such a plan for an instant. Why he thinks it's OK to destroy Virginia's Democratic leadership is a complete mystery to me.

Giving our Governor to the Republicans is too high a price to pay. I hope Obama comes to realize this. Many of my fellow VA Dems will be mighty peeved with Obama if he selects Kaine.

In any case, I think Obama should look to either a national security expert or an economic expert. I like Kaine a lot, but he fulfills neither of those qualifications.

Jen said...

I say this in every VP discussion, but I would love to see Lincoln Chafee selected. A moderate Republican who left his party and became an Independent. He was the only Republican Senator to vote against the Iraq war. I think he would be a great pick that would reach out to indenpendents while reinforcing Obama's core message.

jinchi said...

Should we really bother with the conventional wisdom about the VP race? I seem to remember everyone being pretty surprised about the choice of Dick Cheney in 2000 (since he was leading the search himself). And the choice of Gore violated just about every preconception about what Bill Clinton needed in a running mate.

RoseP said...

I don't see any mention here of Jim Webb as a serious VP contender. Have I missed something?

GoldenAh said...

Obama wants and tries to maintain a drama free campaign. The likely running mate has to be drama and gaffe free, isn't a show boater, or raises the hackles of the Repubs.

I expect a white male who's competent, well liked, slightly attractive (youngish) and a gov./ex-gov.

Wish it were Richardson, if he clears vetting. He's the only one who had Obama's back during a rough patch during the primaries.

Plus Obama and Richardson genuinely like each other.

alvarndc said...

If we ask the questions "Who is best prepared to take over the Presidency?" and "Who is most capable of helping Obama govern?", then there is only one answer -- Al Gore.

I hope Obama has the wisdom and courage to TELL Gore that it is Gore's OBLIGATION and DUTY to serve.

Michael said...

Ok, does anyone know where we could look at commentary just prior to previous races to see how accurate anybody was in reading them tea leaves? Was anyone regularly calling Edwards in 04, Liberman or Cheney in 00? Data people data!

Ondine Breck said...

They're all snores except Schweitzer. I've heard him twice on The Ed Schultz Show and he is terrific, would get the attention of a lot of moderate conservatives. Richardson was my first choice but the lack of recent buzz suggests he ain't in the runnin.'

信次 said...

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平平 said...

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平平 said...

^^ nice blog!! thanks a lot! ^^

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