Amid on the ground reports that McCain is outspending Obama on the air at least 2-1 in places like Missouri, we learn that Obama’s team is betting on a different strategy – overwhelming ground organization early and often.
In Missouri, Obama will have 150 paid organizers and maintain a 12-1 paid organizer edge in my native state. Show-me, indeed. In Michigan, Obama will put an unprecedented 150 field organizers on the ground. In Ohio, why not go for 300 field organizers? That sounds like a nice, absurdly large, round number.
This is the campaign equivalent of invasion with overwhelming force. In the coming days, we should be hearing more reports like these from other battlegrounds (here's Iowa, for example), giving us a clearer and clearer picture of each campaign’s voter contact strategy. Already, however, Marc Ambinder has pointed out that:The polls don't account for the force multiplier effect that Obama's campaign will almost certainly bring to bear with its millions of volunteers and thousands of paid staffers. Whether that effect is 1.01, 1.05 or even 1.3 -- we don't know yet. But even the McCain campaign acknowledges its existence.
Those paid organizers are each recruiting underneath them volunteers and precinct captains (themselves responsible for recruitment and management of volunteers). As I’ve said before, it’s a pyramid scheme aimed at massive voter-to-voter contact. Millions and millions and millions of voter contacts, all knocked out 5, 10, 50 at a time by volunteers. The info gleaned from the contacts is re-looped into the voter file, and repeat contacts are thereby more informed (undecideds can be persuaded; supporters can be urged to early vote; banked early votes allow campaigns to use resources more efficiently in the closing days, etc.). The principle is: voters persuade other voters more personally and powerfully than a 30-second TV ad. Ads give impressions; real people close the sale.
Consider for a moment an oft-discussed example that directly relates to ground organizing – the burgeoning power of the Latino vote. High-information voters like you and I read stories about Obama or McCain each speaking to this or that Latino group, each man arguing why he is the better candidate to implement policies that will improve quality of life for Latinos. But which campaign is more likely to do the actual on-ground registration and one-to-one voter contact in places Latinos live, such as Nevada?
Whatever the ultimate election outcome, it’s clear the Obama campaign believes it knows what it’s doing and a wise investment of resources when it sees one. An “almost preternatural self-confidence about their strategy” is how Ambinder describes it.
And it makes sense; Obama’s team has been vindicated after undergoing months of second-guessing previously during this campaign. In the months before Iowa, outsiders and even supporters were questioning the campaign’s strategy in view of the consistent polling showing Obama lagging behind “where he should be.” Obama’s team remained confident that those polls were Charmin-soft and Obama himself trusted his sense of meeting the moment, that the Democratic electorate was so hungry to turn the page that it would even turn the page on its biggest brand name.
Yet without the deep, well-planned and executed advance work, without having recruited and built the best on-ground political organizations in the key early states, this confidence would have been a false front. Obama likes to say he "made a bet" on the American people by entering the primary despite doing so as a conventional-wisdom prohibitive underdog, now he is making another bet, that the summer's silly season mini-narratives will be washed away in convention and debate drama, and that chance will favor the better organized in the end.
7.15.2008
Shock and Awe, Paid Organizer Version
by Sean Quinn @ 12:50 AM...see also battleground states, iowa, michigan, missouri, ohio, organizing
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Barack Obama will run out of steam eventually. He can't continue to ride his message of change and hope until November. Voters and the American Public are starting to find out who he really is, just someone trying to get elected. National polls are beginning to reflect this.
Women voters are what is keeping Obama alive right now. Has the gap between men/women voter preferences ever been so large in a presidential election?
Even if Obama gets elected, he has promised too much and won't be able to get it accomplished. He won't pull out of Iraq. He definatley will be unable to lower gas prices with his current plans. Socializing medicine may sound easy to do but hard to pull off.
Obama is a one term president if elected. Sounds like the Democrat Party is going for short term gain right here. But in 2012, if Obama gets elected this year, the GOP will come back as strong as ever like a phoenix rising from the ashes after the failure of the Obama administration.
As a McCain supporter, I want McCain to win, but understand that a loss in the 2008 presidential election will not be a bad thing long term.
I've got a factual question.
My understanding is that McCain will not be able to roll his "Primaries" fundraising (which is what he raises now, right?) into the post-convention season; whereas Obama would. Is that right?
If true, this must be driving the strategies now: McCain must spend fairly big now on short term projects, because (a) he must burn some cash, (b) he won't have all that much with which to continue long-term spending projects into September onwards. Obama, on the other hand, really has every incentive to spend little now and to build infrastructure in preparation for the final stretch.
So we should predict a big TV advantage for McCain now, and a big early organization advantage for Obama.
But have I got my campaign finance facts right?
"Ads give impressions; real people close the sale."
I think that's the most important sentence in your entire piece, especially for someone like Obama, who people don't know very well. People will be more convinced by someone whom they know and trust than by a 30 second advertisement. I think it's a good strategy. Plus, whether he wins or loses, it will do wonders for party building inside these states. The voter contact files will be amazingly up to date. It's just a good overall thing for the Democratic Party in general.
Any chance that you can post after every updated electoral vote distribution diagram which states make up the most common outcome?? It's always interesting guessing- and it comes up in comments a lot. Especially now that the distribution is very bell-shaped except for 4 spikes around 275, 285, 295, and 305. It seems that the race has become a little bit neater in the last couple weeks- so explaining the chart will likely be easier.
"obama worst..." said:
"...a loss in the 2008 presidential election will not be a bad thing long term."
I'm hearing that from a lot of my Republican friends. That kind of talk guarantees low turnout, so thank you very much. And thanks, GWB, for creating such a fricking mess for your successors to try to fix.
i just doorknocked in the twin cities this weekend and people were generally very receptive. keyword: CHANGE. MO maybe the lab for this approach since obama has 150 field staff and i've heard that mccain is the only one running ads. gutsy call, but the recend MO poll showing obama with a 5 point lead is positive.
I went to a DNC-sponsored training event where much of this was discussed.
Of course, Obama is not going to merely rely on volunteers - he is also spending a significant amount in conventional sources. He's not making the mistake of some past insurgent candidates and relying too exclusively on the grassroots, but he recognizes its importance.
Ah-- Jan Klasnic, I was just thinking the same thing, the spike at ~290 is getting very large, looking like a more stable and predictable outcome. What is that most probable state makeup anyway?
I think this is great news (from my biased pro Obama viewpoint). It shows Obama learning from past mistakes and refining strategies. I thought the "He outspends Hillary 5-1 but underperforms with white working class voters" narrative was not troubling from a primary perspective (it was patently obvious he was going to win), but I worried it suggested a ceiling of sorts for states demographically unfavorable to him. I think this strategy has legs (literally), and I think is a more cost effective effort than advertising-- more bang for your buck. By paying several organizing staffers you can easily recruit and instruct tons more eager (free) volunteers and the influencing power spreads. I think he's done both in the past, but is refining to focus on ground efforts right now rather than a media saturation which can work but might be less economical.
Let's see, if I paid my staffers $4000 a month for 4 months, that would be $16000 a staffer from now until election day. If I pay for 150 ground staffers, that costs me $2.4 million. A huge sum, but less than the primary ad budgets (didn't I hear $4 mill in PA?). If, for example, I've got say $4 mill for the state, this $2.5 mill for ground work $1.5 mill for ad buys seems like a great investment.
I'm not sure why Obama's strategy is considered "controversial." Didn't Bush use exactly this strategy in 2004?
He built an early network of committed partisans who flooded the toss-up states and organized on the ground in intensive fashion through Churches and other organizations.
By election day, their volunteers and paid staffers had endlessly refined their voting models, had made follow-up contacts with wavering supporters and had lists of who had voted from what precinct.
It was all unprecedented micro-targeting, all part of Rove's plan to get 4 million more Bush-Bots to the polls than in 2000.
And it worked. The polls were close prior to the election, but the Bush people were supremely confident, knowing that if the polling was tied they had a vastly superior ground game that would trump any increase in Kerry turnout.
And remember how the exit polls predicted Kerry was winning? What was wrong?
Answer: they underestimated Republican turnout.
This year the wing-nuts are sitting on their hands. The Fundies aren't getting involved. McCain looks like he's running Bob Dole's 1996 campaign.
The Republican fund-raising advantage from lobbyists will outspend Obama in the MSM, but in September and October all battleground states will have saturation coverage from both campaigns. It will be a wash, with voters essentially tuning it out.
And the campaign with the best ground game will win the election. And an intense ground game requires real passionate commitment.
That is the ONE thing McCain can't generate. There just aren't that many Republicans who are really excited by McCain's campaign.
Jan and Stephen,
The spike is most likely at 293, and is made up of the Kerry states, Iowa, Ohio, Colorado and New Mexico, i.e. the states where Obama is polling at least five points ahead of McCain.
ohio,
Hey don't forget to add those polls you missed today in Iowa, Minnesota, South Dakota, and Colorado.
Just making sure you knew because traveling can decrease info absorption.
Anonymous at 11:58 p.m.: Yes, you have the general concept of the public financing rules correct. McCain (along with many of the other candidates) declined public financing at the primary stage. This permits him to spend as much as he can raise (with the donations per person limited but the potential total unlimited) in the primary season. And no, McCain cannot use a primary season surplus in the general election season; the rule is that one must spend only the public finance money (with some narrow exceptions, e.g. up to $50,000 from the candidate's own pocket) in the general election season if one has opted in to public finance.
So, I think your perception of McCain's spending pattern is probably correct. I'm less sure that it has the effect that you predict on Obama.
the spike at ~290 is getting very large, looking like a more stable and predictable outcome. What is that most probable state makeup anyway?
I think it's 293 and is comprised of
Kerry States (252)
IA (7)
NM (5)
CO (9)
***Dems Win!***
OH (20)
Wow - Ventura is NOT running in Minnesota and today's Rasmussen poll has Franken with his first (albeit 2 point) lead over Coleman.
Another potential nail in Holy Joe's coffin! Of course, if it gets to 60 I guess his stock goes back up.
Each spike is likely several different possibilities that all happen to have the same net electoral result.
Glad Jesse Ventura's not running. not that I much care too much about the Franken/Coleman outcome, he just irritates me. I think it's the way he explains things on Larry King so often, and how there's nothing going on in Washington that's positive for him now and therefore he's totally the shit. Like the Lou Dobbs of Minnesota state politics.
pechmerle,
Just to be clear, McCain did not turn down public financing in the primaries. When his campaign was broke, McCain requested primary financing and used that status to secure a loan and state ballot access--constituting several million dollars in material benefit to his campaign. Then he decided he was no longer participating, but the FEC lacked a full quorum to evaluate his request and decide if he could be released from the program. This is why the DNC has a suit against McCain for campaign finance violations.
As for the original question, if we assume that McCain is released from the public system, then he has the normal $2300 per contributor max until the end of August. Pretty much all of that must be spent before the end of the convention. After that he'll ostensibly be limited to $85 million in public funds for the two months of general election. In practice, however, McCain's going to be spending a lot more in private funds.
The McCain campaign fund accepts up to $70k per contributor and spreads it out among the RNC and various state funds. So, he'll be spending public funds while he's relying on a small number of big money donors to give him the real cash advantage. Between that and the 527s he'll be spending at least as much as Obama. However, McCain is actually violating the intent of the campaign finance laws, so he has to be careful to maintain distance in certain areas or else he's obviously violating the letter of the law. By contrast, Obama is not gaming the system, meaning he legitimately has direct control over his campaign message and spending (rather than hiding his actions behind third parties).
Patrick: It's very probably that there's some "oddball" scenarios (such as, oh, losing DE but winning MT to make up for it) that show up in the spikes, but it's very likely, especially given where the spikes are, that they're primarily made up of a single scenario.
I would guess that the biggest spike (probably 293) is everything going as colored on the map, the next-biggest (probably 306) is everything except VA going as colored, and VA flipping. The spike just above 270 is probably as-colored but losing OH...
... at the very least, I would wager those make up over 75% of the scenarios that contributed to their respective spikes. You can estimate what some of the others are (I expect the mini-spikes just above the two biggest are those scenarios + MT, for instance), but the further out it gets the odder the scenarios are going to be since no likely scenario is going to produce those outcomes anyway.
What I actually find interesting is that the mini-spike just past the biggest spike is smaller than the one just past the second-biggest. I'm guessing it's because a lot of the VA-flip scenarios have a pro-Obama national movement, which also makes it likelier for MT to flip, but it's still interesting.
Each spike is likely several different possibilities that all happen to have the same net electoral result.
Ah! So for example, in addition to the most likely way to reach 293 he could also lose CO, but win MT, ND and AK, or lose NM but win NV, or win VA but lose NM and IA. And there's a slew of win OH but lose either PA or MI that would open up other combinations of 293.
not that I much care too much about the Franken/Coleman outcome
It seems like that would be very significant outcome because Franken would likely be a genuine progressive, as opposed to a wimpy crook like Schumer, Feinstein, Reid et al.
Stephen, entry-level field organizers make 2000 a month, not 4. Their minimal benefits and equipment requirements may bring them up to 3000 in actual cost.
Thats the max.
Entry level political workers are not paid well.
@ st paul sage:
I live in KC and just thought I'd let you know that Obama IS on the air here, contrary to what you've heard. In fact, he started running ads before McCain and they've been airing uninterrupted, as far as I can tell.
I don't have first-hand knowledge of the St. Louis, Springfield, and Columbia/Jeff City markets. but I assume Obama's on-air there too.
That said, it seems like McCain's "Summer of Love" ad has been airing more often than Obama's ads over the last week or so. But hey, I'm all for forcing the old codger to spend a lot of $$$$$ to play defense in a state that was in his column from the get-go.
Obama has a 2 to 1 advantage in enthusiastic voters.
If the volenteer situation for the Conventions is any guide or the online donations, the ratio for dedicated activists is probably much higher.
The Republican campaign can only be an air war. They just don't have the troups. Morover much of the money will be out of McCains control and will be spent entirely on (negative) advertising.
All the evidence is that McCain is not even going to try to organise the activists beyond giving orders without giving support.
I fancy Obama's chances even if the polls put him 5 points behind. His many enthusiastic supports will get out to vote even if they have to crawl, and they will drag out the rest. Meanwhile the Republicans will stay in bed & watch TV.
The ultimate truism remains that only in states where a candidate is running above 50% can anything be certain. There's a large group of undecided as yet.
You've met people who put decisions off till the last minute? That's them.
Still, if Obama doesn't make any major mistakes, they'll likely come in close to the current percentages.
The only way McCain will win is a robust economic recovery in the next 100 days.
Obama's ground game surpasses anything in history and will continue to be a key to it all. But losing the economy like Bush did starting a year ago drives the dissatisfaction and the receptiveness to "change", but really, change is always popular when the wallet's funky.
And that'll be true in 2012, too. If Obama doesn't have a good recovery creating comfort by then, he'll be toast, too.
Kevin
Never underestimate the urge to throw good money after bad.
If Obama come up with a plausable plan by 2012 he will get 4 more years to carry it out.
Not even Superman can sort out the mess in 4 years, and everybody knows it. The best America can hope for is a slow & gentle decline in importance rather than a final & permanent return to the great depression.
Speaking of fundraising, I was reading the fine print for McCain's Ashland fundraiser this week:
"For Individuals - The first $2,300 to JM 2008, the next $2,300 to the Compliance Fund, the next $28,500 to the RNC, and the balance of up to $37,000 will be divided evenly between the Colorado, Minnesota, New Mexico, and Wisconsin state parties' federal accounts.
...
Contributions to the Compliance Fund will be used solely for legal and accounting services to ensure compliance with federal law and not for campaign activities. Compliance funds may defray a portion of broadcast advertising, national and state office "overhead", and computer/website expenses."
Anyone know what this is about? Is it yet another questionably legal way to avoid following his own law?
OK, I looked it up. The FEC has ruled that 5% of broadcast advertising can be paid from the Compliance Fund, to account for the required "I approve this message" tag.
lilnev
Good catch. It looks like McCain is seperating out his administrative overheads & legal expenses & claiming that they are not campaign expenses.
Sailing very close to the wind but it should work.
Obama should be checking it out, as should Hillary. There are a lot of maxed out Hillary supporters who might contribute to a Clinton "Compliance fund" to clear her debts.
If it's legal Obama should follow suit, if not he can nail McCain on integrety.
I absolutely love this quote from the McCain campaign from www.kansascity.com;
“When you feel like you have to put that many people in the state to cover it, means you think you’re in trouble and you have to have a surge."
No irony intended, of course.
I would say that merely showing up somewhere and shaking someone's hand, if they've been ignored in the past, is often enough to win his vote. The up-close-and-personal is far better than the distant TV ad.
Back to polling for a moment. Do we take it from Rasmussen's release of 5 state polls yesterday that he is going to be releasing polling from several states each day from now on? I certainly hope so. Of the swing states, OH, PA and NV have been horribly underpolled so far.
SurveyUSA has come back to life with a MN senate poll showing Coleman way ahead which seems to conflict with Rasmussen's senate poll showing Franken with a small lead.
Sean, excellent well-researched post.
I'm a little worried that the possible huge turnout could swamp the polls, especially in cities like Cleveland. Is there anything a campaign can do to get more machines, staff polls with competent people, etc?
New Quinnipiac national poll with actually realistic black voter results (shocking!): Obama 50 McCain 41
http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1284.xml?ReleaseID=1192&What=&strArea=;&strTime=0
It's funny. Yesterday's blog was all about the Bradley Effect or a related "Undecided Effect" whereby Obama would lose votes compared to the final polls. Today the consensus is that his organizing will favor him compared to those same polls.
While yes, Bush had a better ground operation than Kerry, every state except WI went as expected. Ohio was the only tossup and won the election for Bush (as much because of Dem disenfranchisement as Bush organiaing).
I could be wrong, but I'd lay odds that Nate calls it on the morning of November 4 and neither the Bradley effect nor the ground war effect confuse the polls to any significant degree.
Phillip, read that Quinnipiac poll carefully. Blacks pick Obama 94-1. That huge margin is what gives Obama his overall 9 pt lead over McCain.
Thanks for that. I'm pretty sure I read it carefully and believe stimulated black turnout alone can move the margin from 11 points (Kerry 88 in 2004) to < 6 points given his ability to convert even conservative blacks.
given also*. If you think otherwise feel free to take that margin with a grain of salt, while I prefer to take certain polls like Obama 70 McCain 18 in the african american subgroup with a massive grain of salt.
The Quinnipiac poll showing Obama 9 points ahead puts to bed the wishful thinking of some on the right that McCain is surging. As I've said countless times, if you look across all the polls, the average has not moved much since early June and rests somewhere between 3 and 6 points.
I would be especially interested in an analysis of campaign ground game in states with opportunities for big pick-ups in early voting. This is one of the reasons I keep arguing for Obama's chances in NC, regardless of his by-the-numbers polling. NC has an exceptionally "Obama-friendly" early voting set-up - by which I mean, the Obama campaign did an exception job of taking advantage of NC's early voting in the primary.
A breakdown of NC's numbers from the primary show that Obama came into the May 6 election having already "won" from early voting alone. His advantage from early votes was so great that all he needed to do was stay roughly even with Clinton on election day proper, and he would win by about 5%. Instead, of course, he won the day by just under 10%, giving him a 14.6% win in the primary (early voting + primary day voting).
I bring this up because it seems to me from looking at past election numbers in NC that early voting favors Dems - but that it has never had any real statistical impact until the '08 primary. I don't know if the model of our election hold in other states with early voting (this is what I want to know!). It seems to me that a similar ground game in November could create some surprising results. In NC, if Obama had a similar early voting success, he would come into election day having wiped out McCain's polling lead. I know that polling should capture "voters" whether they are "early" or "regular," but I'm trying to suggest that there is actually something measurably different here. And the "early voting" variable is precisely one where ground presence matters far more than advertising.
thisniss: good post. Nate should do an article about possible shifts state by state based on early voting, absentees from overseas, things like that.
Thisniss, Florida has early voting as well, and if your logic is sound - which it seems to be - then Florida is now more of a swing state than it has been since 2000. If Obama wins FL and NC it will start to approach an electoral landslide. I'm not counting on that, but it would be nice.
Phillip, sorry - the way I read your post I thought you were saying blacks were 41% for McCain. lol.
Quinippiac Poll-the biggest Homer poll for Obama that there is in America right now.
Furthermore this poll takes place over 14 days or something like that. This poll is plain junk. Worse than the Newsweek Poll.
For me, this election is over.
The turnout for Obama will be historical among young and black voters.
Every day the Obama volunteers register new voters in swing states.
The msm and media can say the race is close, but it's not true.
The Republicans invented the GOTV strategy and Obama and the dems are now playing catch up. People are expensive and unpredictable and they must be disciplined or you wind up having your campaign linked to Che Gueverra.
It will become clear in a day or so that Obama has a fund raising problem. Internet donations have slowed dramtically and he will fall far short of the $100 million he forecast for June. As these shortfalls mount he will be more and more forced to husband and budget his funds for the general election magnifying McCain's cash advantage (when his robust fund raising is coupled with that of the RNC).
The 527s should further serve to help McCain. There is a very persuaive young vets group ad that is playing in OH about finishing the job in Iraq for instance. We no longer see baby Alex, btw.
By contrast Obama as new poltician has to be careful about his use of 527s and the ones that are likely to support him will only further serve to identify him with the country's leftish fringe. That association apparently is felt to be radioactive by his campaign.
In the final analysis you can't bring people to the polls to support your candidate, if that support is not there.
I think we may be in the midst of an inflection point in the race . . . still developing . . .
The thing to remember, when asking (like in the above discussion) "What is the specific meaning of each spike" is that that's not really an important question.
Ten thousand simulations are run. The spike that looks big and huge accounted for 200 of them.
That spike is really, really unlikely to happen.
Yes, it's more likely to happen than any other particular vote, but it's a fifty-to-one shot. Who cares what states it specifically represents?
The greatest feat of the devil was convincing people that he did not exist.
Reading this site makes us all believe that Barack Hussein Obama will win. We will rest on our laurels, believing victory is at hand.
Then McCain will squeak to victory, and Bush will claim his disastrous policies vindicated by the American people.
Nate is the anti-Christ! He is running a sleeper cell for McCain!
So it would be a bit sketchy to include this in the model... but I think it would be interesting to game out the effects of a 1,3,5 and 10% bump in Dem turnout. How much does that change the map?
Pete Kent - You're getting awfully close to reasoned debate albeit with a dollop of wishful thinking added to each talking point.
I agree that there is a question mark over Obama's fund raising although if he raises anything over $40M I would consider that pretty good at this stage of the cycle even if they did hype a target of $100M. You are right that McCain will raise huge amounts through the RNC and the 527s which is precisely why I thought Obama was right to reject public financing. If he had taken it, he would have been outspent 3 to 1. As it is, I think they will have similar amounts of money.
As to your prediction that the trackers would show McCain ahead by this week, care to put your hand up and admit you were wrong? Obama is up 44-40 in Rasmussen today (47-45 with leaners) and 46-43 in Gallup. If I have done my maths right Obama's lead in the Gallup tracker will grow today as his worst day of polling drops off. Quinnipiac also has him 9 points up.
Don't get me wrong, I still see this as a 60-40 race in Obama's favour which he can easily lose but the national polls and even more importantly the state polls are still looking plenty good enough for Obama.
Ras tracker: O 47, M 45 (44-40 without leaners).
This site is hilarious. If you come on here with a conservative viewpoint and make a case or statement such as, "Hmmm, Obama leads by 8 points in a battleground state that has consistently gone Republican by 2-4 points the last few elections. Such a large lead seems rather dubious, especially when reported by a left-leaning polling site. It's probably closer to a 1 or 2 point lead for Obama or pretty much a dead heat," you're met with this kind of a response....
"Go away you McSame-hugging troll! You don't know squat about polling! Get out of here if you can't understand the perfect methodology being used. And if the polls are wrong, it's the other way around - Obama should be up by 20 points!"
Or, maybe you make an observation like, "Bush trailed in the polls by 5-10 points in X, Y, and Z states in the summer of 2000 or 2004 and still wound up winning those states in the election," you're still met with such warm comments as...
"Shut up, stupid Repukelican troll! You don't know anything! Those were all statistically insignificant (blah) (blah) (blah) that didn't prove anything and Bush would have won or stole the election anyway. Only these polls matter. Only these polls are perfect! We're right, and you're wrong you right-leaning d-bags. There's no way this election is a dead heat. It's all media conspiracy. Obama is up 10 points now and will win by 15 points in November and sweep the electoral college."
Maybe I'm speaking a bit tongue-in-cheek, but check a lot of these posts, and see if that's not the tone of a lot of these Obama/poll supporters.
How hypocritical, deluded, and close-minded.
And by the way, Social Security is a disgrace and Americans are a bunch of whiners (not everyone, but a majority) even in the face of economic prosperity. It may not be the politically correct thing to say otherwise, but those are correct statements.
Pete Kent,
Your "inflection point" is purely in your dreams.
The polling released over the past several days shows regression to the mean, and the latest Quinnipiac poll is interesting, though it too is probably an outlier.
The toplines for the Quinnipiac poll are in line with other major national polling. I calculated that the Quinnipiac poll had the following party identifications: 26.7% R, 37.7% D and 35.6% I.
The number one pocketbook issue among all groups are gasoline prices, so this issue can still have a substantial effect going forward, but probably only if someone can come up with a plan for immediate relief (which is not going to happen).
Your repeated innuendoes about fundraising issues are contrary to this article on Bloomberg. Obama raised $10 million more in June than McCain.
It is certainly true that the RNC will have significantly more funds than the DNC, but the RNC will have to put much of that cash toward competitive House and Senate races, as will the DNC. The effective funds available directly to Obama will exceed the effective funds available to McCain (my analysis excludes 527s, which cannot be directly available under law. So unless the RNC gives no funds at all for local and state advertising for races lower on the ticket, McCain will not have an advantage.
Please try and provide some facts for your posts, rather than innuendoes and wishes.
Maybe I'm speaking a bit tongue-in-cheek, but check a lot of these posts, and see if that's not the tone of a lot of these Obama/poll supporters.
Yeah, I checked. It's not.
The problem that most of the partisan Republicans posting on here are having, is that their man is well behind. (Not out of it, certainly, but behind.)
This is forcing some of them to invent more and more elaborate scenarios to account for the discrepancy between reality and their own wishes and desires.
Unfortunately, as the line goes, the methodology here is reality-based.
@jack balck
Q-poll was over 6 days, not 14
From July 8 -13, Quinnipiac University surveyed 1,725 likely voters nationwide, with a margin of error of +/- 2.4 percentage points.
Oh, and i think Minnesota is over. We can talk about mcCain reversing an Obama 8-point lead in Michigan. But 18 points is simply too much.
Wow, counsellorben...
In the very next post, you proved my point.
Pete Kent makes an observation and he's full of delusional dreams.
I'm sure your dreams are all fact-based.
You take a look at all the latest Rasmussen polling and it's all pretty one-sided:
* Landrieu Leads in Louisiana Senate Bid
* Minnesota Senate: Franken 44% Coleman 42%
* Minnesota: Obama’s Lead Over McCain Climbs to 18%
* Iowa: Obama takes 10% lead over McCain
* South Dakota: McCain Leads Obama by Just Four Points
* Michigan: Obama’s Lead Grows to 8%
* Louisiana: McCain Enjoys Big Lead in Bayou State
None of that is particularly good news for McCain. "The race is tightening" narrative is getting a little worn out.
Unless Gallup and Rasmussen revert to a tie over the next week, we can safely conclude that nothing much has happened.
Anonymous @9:20a (who also attackes me @9:28a) said 'This site is hilarious. If you come on here with a conservative viewpoint and make a case or statement such as, "Hmmm, Obama leads by 8 points in a battleground state that has consistently gone Republican by 2-4 points the last few elections. Such a large lead seems rather dubious, especially when reported by a left-leaning polling site. It's probably closer to a 1 or 2 point lead for Obama or pretty much a dead heat,' " (emphasis added).
Yet another conservative who does not get it. This is not a polling site. It is a blog about an electoral model using polling and regression analysis, but why bother with facts when you are discussing politics.
In fact, the polls which get the greatest weighting in Nate's model are from Rasmussen. Rasmussen is a Republican (appearing on Fox regularly), but his methodolgy appears to be the best among all pollsters at this time.
Your arguments about a certain state which is currently polling Obama +8 (Ohio) are based on the results of the past two elections. History is a good place to start, but not the be all and end all you proclaim. States often move in different directions in different elections. If you have a criticism of the model (or a valid criticism of polling in general), let's hear it.
Offer some facts or factual analysis. Or you can continue to call me names, raise innuendoes or spout your spin.  Your choice.
sarasotajoe:
"I could be wrong, but I'd lay odds that Nate calls it on the morning of November 4 and neither the Bradley effect nor the ground war effect confuse the polls to any significant degree."
I think you're talking apples and oranges here. I agree about the Bradley effect, because that's all about the polls being inaccurate. But the ground war, whatever its effect, will be reflected in the polls by then; it's not a factor that "confuses" them.
The point is that the conservatives here seem to be just , well, making stuff up. One can hope their candidate will win, but that should have some basis in the actual numbers. In 2004, I remember well doing what I am seeing the conservatives here do. I did that for Kerry. I remember saying he will pull it out in the end. He will do x, or y or z. The truth is the dynamics really just do not favor McCain. Here's the other thing-the one thing that does favor McCain- the fund raising advantage is a short term one at that. How do I know that? Common sense based on this election cycle so far. Obama's numbers this month maybe low, but, what we know is that his pool of donors isn't tapped out yet. If this becomes about money, they will donate- they've done it already. Part of that is the expectations game. On the organizing front, the Democrats being ahead of the GOP is the biggest thing this cycle. The fact is- organizing is how the GOP won in 2004. Indeed, it's how they made some states uncompetitive. And, right now, the least important aspect is the polling- but that paits a horrible picture too. Of course, the most important aspects are the context- a failing economy, a failing war, a failed Presidency from your party, a weak candidate as the party nominee, a strong oppositional candidate. Things haven't been this bad for one party in a generation. I said to my friend in 2004, and I will say it again- Bush is your Carter. He has become and will remain the symbol of all that is wrong with you. It doesn't even matter that he won't be in office anymore. Your brand as a party is and will continue to be on the descend. That's also a matter of the political pendulum swings that happen in this country and re-allignment.
Another data point for the ground game -- here in Fairfax, VA, there are already several fully-staffed campaign offices open, and there are going to be at least nine by the fall in this county alone. We're registering voters, making contacts, canvassing, and of course, constantly recruiting volunteers already. We're the biggest county in the state (more populous than several states), but this is still a big deal.
Redshift: To you knowledge, how many campaign offices are open on each side?
Obama and McCain were tied on Sunday as I predicted. There has been some vibration in the polls since then but no big move. Today's shift in the Rasmussen survey (Gallup reports in the afternoon), means little unless a trend is established.
My view is that there is a trend brewing in this election and that it bodes ill for Obama.
The lead story last night on the cable news was all about the New Yorker cover. A cover that everyone understood was about satire, yet produced such consternation among Obama supporters and within his camp. You couple that with the hue and cry over Jesse Jackson's remarks, which may have induced some sympathy for Obama and you think back to the other sustained narrative of this campaign: Reverend Wright and Trinity United Church and you have the makings of a problem.
The American people are by and large not racist and this election will not be fought over the hearts and minds of such benighted fools as they.
However, the great mass of people want a President of the United States of America and what is emerging about Obama's campaign is that everything about him and it, and presumably his administration is being seen through the prism of race.
I do not think even Black people enjoy all this attention being placed on racial identity. It is constant and it is a distraction from issues.
Instead of laughing and shrugging off the silly stereotype of them on the New Yorker cover, the Obama’s contributed to the firestorm and added more gasoline to the fire, further assuring that his is a candidacy firmly rooted in his racial identity.
With so much that the next President has to face, he can ill-afford to be distracted by constant race baiting, whether by his own campaign/administration or those who would attack it.
I think the election was lost for Obama last night, as it became clear to me how wearying all this racial discussion and politics are.
Many, many people, including those who might be inclined to vote for Obama in the abstract will shun his candidacy because he brings with him a lot of baggage.
That he cannot help it, does not excuse it.
He may have blazed a trail and we can all get out our demons in 2008, but McCain will be President and then pave the way for Condoleezza Rice or Michael Steele next time around.
That is the inflection point of which I spoke.
Expect this to show up strongly in the polls taken on Wednesday.
Not good for Obama that this is NAACP week.
Redshift said "the ground war, whatever its effect, will be reflected in the polls by then."
I am not certain of that. The ground war include the GOTV effort. As Pete Kent said, the Republicans excelled at GOTV in 2004, which insured Bush's victory.
However, I recall the AFL-CIO GOTV effort on behalf of Gore in 2000 in southeastern PA. My wife and I went to vote at 8am ET with our (then) toddler daughter. We got home to a message reminding us to vote. In the early afternoon, we had some organizers knock on our door to remind us to vote.
I believe that the GOTV effort in 2000 put PA (narrowly) into Gore's column. GOTV cannot be reflected in polling, and can have a huge impact on a state's results.
I'm in GA and I can tell you that the ground game here is very, very, real.
We've had 265 Obama Fellows here all summer and now f/t staff is up to 100++ just in Atlanta where we will have multiple offices in the metro area.
The focus is force multiplier with volunteers like me and voter registration and education about voting....
450,000 unregistered black voters alone in the Atlanta area....
GA is in play, thanks to the investment....and Bob Barr...
Anonymous McCain supporter,
A lot of very surprising poll results are appearing in individual states, which is after all what the model is mainly based upon. Examples in point - the blueing of West, with McCain in front by only four points in SD, and the shock in Montana. And bear in mind that Obama's national polls aren't exactly sky-high.
What's my point? Quite simply, some states that once were solid Republican are now competitive, not based on astronomical polling that will inevitably decline - a post-convention bump, say, or a super-enhanced unity bounce - but in what we might call ordinary circumstances. Hence, some swing states are swing states no more - in one case (touch wood) Iowa. What did Obama say... 'there are no Red states and Blue states - there's just the United States.' Well, there are certainly fewer Red States around.
As for the numbers... Nate has recently made some small adjustments that brought the chances of Obama winning down slightly (at one stage, they were 75%, which I did think ludicrous). But 60% feels about right, with the polling showing a narrow lead for Obama, but substantial enough with all the factors he has in his favour.
Ultimately, we'll see whether the model is right in November. No-one can be completely sure as to its validity, but it's as good as any I've seen.
Stop the bickering about polls being biased.
Look at the pollster rankings http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/search/label/pollster%20ratings
Rasmussen is the third best pollster and Quinnipiac is 9- but both are in fact very accurate.
The Zogby polls are garbage- andwere treatedas such with the percentage reduction. But really any poll under 2 in error is very good. Those include all the polls that this post has been blowing up about being biased.
Citing polls that show Obama winning (in states that Nate's regression and past polls say he is) doesn't mean is biased for Obama. Same for polls that show McCain winning big in red states (like the last LA poll).
FL polls go back and forth because its close and hard to poll. MO is such a swing state we'll get variances a lot (some will do with polling ID and method) but this is expected. Look at 04 polls, close states have a lot of variance at this time before elections- it doesn't mean bias or uncertainty- it means its still a long way before the election and the states are close.
Don't claim the third most accurate poller is biased because you don't like their results or because the founder was republican its idiotic. As for Quinnipiac being a dem puppet- it too is very accurate.
Stop making unfounded claims to show bias. Look at the true numbers we have in past performance. Unless the results are so unbelievable (As some Zogby seemed to be) you should look at it as reasonable. There will naturally be variations, and close states are hard to poll- deal with it- but not as a child yelling foul if you don't like what you see.
If Bob Barr siphons enough votes away from McCain for Obama to win Georgia, I'd be surprised. Third-party candidates always, always perform worse on election day than they do in polls; Al Giordano at The Field has a good post on this. If Obama wants to win Georgia, he'll have to win it on the strength of his campaigning.
any chance the ground game can cut both ways? someone not like you (a starry eyed college kid, a birkenstock wearing academic with a thinning ponytail) knocks on your working class 40 hour a week door - does that run a risk of turning you off or presuading you that you ahve more in common with the other camp?
One of the encouraging things that I see is the > 50% margin that Obama is pulling in some of these polls. Any poll that shows two candidates, both < 50% leaves a lot of room for error. It is only when you see a candidate creeping above 50% that you can begin to be confident in the results, and Obama is beginning to do that. As July melts into August and August into September, if you see Obama solidifying at 51,52, 53% or more in many of these 'swing' states, you're going to begin seeing the other side look resigned to defeat.
Kent wrote: "Obama and McCain were tied on Sunday as I predicted. There has been some vibration in the polls since then but no big move. Today's shift in the Rasmussen survey (Gallup reports in the afternoon), means little unless a trend is established."
That there is been "no big move" still leaves McCain behind -- whether you're looking at 538, Pollster, or RCP. There is no credible evidence from polls at least that McCain is within the margin of error for predicting an electoral win.
But I think many people here are forgetting the two basic truths about polls in the pre-election season. They are the same two certainties about the stock market. The old saw goes: "There are two things that are certain about the stock market. It goes up. And it goes down."
Too much of the interpreting on this blog involves speculation about what might be causing what are essentially random changes to occur. Like the stock market, there are "fundamental" as well as "technical" bases of shifts on the candidates' prospectus.
Anyone who says "I predicted" and "here's what the cause of the rise/fall" today was is playing a fool's game. Sometimes your predictions are going to be right, and sometimes wrong, especially in the short run because of random and technical factors (timing of polls, sampling error, etc.). Guessing "right," or "wrong," however, is largely just a matter of luck.
counsellorben: Yeah, I thought of some of that as soon as I posted. To speak more specifically, the Bradley effect is by definition something that defies polls. A conventional GOTV ground game is all about making sure your results live up to your polls (and can make actual results differ from polls to the extent that your GOTV is better than your opponent's.)
However, the massive ground game the Obama campaign is conducting this early is targeted not just at GOTV but also, more than a typical campaign, at persuasion, both by winning over voters and by persuading those who might not otherwise vote to come out. The results of that effort should be reflected in polls before election day to some degree.
Pete Kent - Nice try but you're being, well, untruthful. You predicted McCain would be ahead in the tracker polls by the weekend. He is behind in both tracker polls. That means you were wrong.
Short term predictions are a silly game particularly when they are baseless and based on wishful thinking.
Today you say that the New Yorker issue is the moment that Obama loses the presidency. Last week, you claimed his comments on learning a foreign language would cost him the presidency.
Here's a helpful hint. Try latching on to a real issue (rather than an ephemeral media spun froth issue) and on the off chance that McCain does win, you could even be right. McCain's only path to victory is to hammer Obama on national security issues, play the fear card and hope that the American people relegate the economy as their most important issue. So long as the economy is the main issue, McCain loses.
Charlie Black was right about needing a terrorist attack.
I am coming to agree with Bill Bishop's "The Big Sort" that the divisions we are seeing among the posters on this board are colored by our respective communities (I include myself).
In this 538.com community, I would prefer a more analytical approach, with less partisan noise.
Pete Kent, your last post confuses me. You claim that decisions will not be made by most people because of racism, but you then make an argument which appears to be about "reverse racism." You seem to be saying that America is sick of talking about race, so America will vote against Obama.
Your statement is pure punditry, probably based on your community experiences. Yesterday, there was some posting about the offensiveness of politicians speaking "for Americans." You have fallen into this trap, but you are speaking for yourself and your community, not for America.
Juris: I believe McCain has one office here, though that's not entirely indicative. Democrats win Virginia by winning big in Northern Virginia and Richmond (plus other smaller cities) and not losing too badly in the rest of the state, and for Republicans it's the reverse. Also, McCain's national headquarters is next door in Arlington.
Quinnipiac has had Obama with a huge lead during the period of the Rasmussen tie.
New National Poll from Quinn has him +9
Redshift, you are absolutely right that a well-run ground game at this time will certainly be reflected in polling between now and election day.
It follows the old military wisdom that an air war by itself cannot win, and boots on the ground are needed.
counsellorben: Thanks for calling that out-- the common phrasing of comments here in terms of "What the American people have figured out" was really starting to piss me off. I think that's what got me started thinking and posting about politicians' "The American people are smarter than that" type talk in the first place. We can all try to piece out what poll results mean with our best guesses, but we (like the politicians) should let the American people speak for themselves on November 5th.
PUMA NEWS ALERT !
MCCAIN IS WINNING !
WOOOOOOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOOOOO !
NOVEMBER ELECTION RESULT
MCCAIN 70%
OBAMA 30%
YES WE WILL
PUMA
LOL
Stephen said "we (like the politicians) should let the American people speak for themselves on November 5th"
Uh, Stephen, I agree, but I hope they speak for themselves on Tuesday, November 4th. <grin>
I agree completely with the post about the polling complaining.
But I have one point that contradicts it slightly. Especially with top pollsters the results shouldn't be seen as being biased- but there can still of course be error. In most of the polls that there is complaint about there are two types or justifications- both of which I will argue aren't reason to come to the conclusion the polling is biased (not legit).
One- there hasn't been polling in the state- and the first poll- or first poll in a longtime bucks the trend.
Examples: ND, SD, MT-- all 3 are very similar- in demographics- and in polling data and volume. Obama does seem to have a Western advantage in polling. Western democrats and independents as has been commented on by Nate and others on this site are very different from those elsewhere. Libertarians are more common, independents focus more on largely democratic concerns (climate change and environmentalism etc), and there tend to be quickly changing demographics, and many who can't be defined easily meaning there is potential for quick changes in elections. This appears to be happening now. MT seems most likely to switch, with ND slightly behind and SD probably a hard climb (Obamas favorability ratings are so low here that even tho it appears close it would be very hard to win). Just because polling iust started doesn't mean it cant be true. I'd also argue that all three states showing a similar trend at a similar time (all having been very republican before) all shifting very similarly now and at the same time makes it more likely that the trend is real.
Second group- Swing states- MO, FL swing state type vs. OH, PA, MI, type, vs. NV, vs. Southern swing states
MO and FL are hard to poll, very large, and very close. Different methodologies and ID'ing make it more confusing. There are slight edges for McCain in both,but Obama will poll up in some polls in both states making it very close. Hard toread these states- it will be very important to see how they change in the coming months. If McCain loses one its likely over-if Obama gains in one or both to the point its legitimately toss-up or his advantage he's won.
OH, PA, MI- the famed rust belt area. Win 2/3 you win is the idea. This ignores the chance that IA, NM, CO, VA etc could help Obama win even with a midwest collapse (which is unlikely but very possible). PA and MI seem to be likely Obama- but OH is scary even if it polls close to the other two. PA and MI have been dem states since Clinton- and somewhat strong- OH of course is the showdown state. Having it been so close in recent elections make Obama es supporters want to see big leads (especially since several months ago it was polling very favorably for McCain). Obama can win this losing 2/3 but it'd be very tough. Want to know who's going to win- who's up in at least 2 of these. So far thats Obama- which is hwy he has abig chance at winning. If he goes up to 85% or so winning in each state his overall win percentage chance will also be around 85- since these state are really the only way McCain wins. He may keep IA, NM, CO- but can't win just with them. Losing any state (VA, MT, ND, SD etc.) means he's in rough shape- but he may still be in play in MI and OH and can make it up and win. If McCain doesn't get leads in at least OH its over.
NV- who knows whats going on here. Its hard to poll, looks good for Obama by thenumbers but is polling well for McCain. Hard to read. Polls post VP selection (Esp. if its Romney in a state with many mormons) will tell us more.
South- GA was+1, and +2 McCain recently- but surrounded by +10s. There are always posts by volunteers on the site on the ground here saying its in play- so is it? Lot of unregistered- lots of potential- and the campaigning will certainly help- my take- the posters are partially correct-in that it will be closer than it polls for Obama. If he gets to a constant -1 or 2 it will be a nailbiter. If he gets up or even it will swing his way- if there is still fluctuation he will likely lose.
NC will likely only go after VA- so until VA is sured up its still a ling-shot. VA looks 50-50 right now- and if McCain loses here its bad for him. Especially with IA, NM, and CO looking like safe OBama a loss here means midwest can take a hit. If VA polls afer for Obama (less close McCain wins) then it can go his way- and McCain has to decide if he fights hard here- or stick to OH, PA, MI- he can't afford a loss here- epecially if NC creeps further into play.
counsellorben: you're right that would totally suck to have them all speak one day after the election...hahaha
Very wise, wise counsellor ben as usual. Where are the Barr supporters by the way? Or are they too tipsy to post?
Apparently Pete's crystal ball is now up for auction on Ebay after this gem from last week
Pete Kent said...
I think the current news cycle is taking its toll on Obama and I expect McCain to pass him in the Gallup and Rasmussen surveys by Sunday.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/latestpolls/senate.html
How is MN +13 R, and +2 D on the same day of polling for the #2 and#3 pollster???
Coleman has had a lead for the whole time- but MN is so liberal one would expect it to tighten.
I guess this means Coleman still up +6 or so until another poll clarifies that the +2 Franken is not the outlier it currently is
Thoughts anyone else....
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/latestpolls/senate.html
How is MN +13 R, and +2 D on the same day of polling for the #2 and#3 pollster???
Coleman has had a lead for the whole time- but MN is so liberal one would expect it to tighten.
I guess this means Coleman still up +6 or so until another poll clarifies that the +2 Franken is not the outlier it currently is
Thoughts anyone else....
This election is going to be about Obama and the kind of presidency he brings to the Oval Office.
It is becoming clearer by the day that Obama will bring a hyper level of race consciousness to the national scene, the likes of which we have never witnessed.
This is not a positive for his candidacy and in fact will deter voters who are looking for a President who can address their problems and concerns and not be constantly mired down in, and having to pass everything through, a racial filter.
Who you are matters. Obama last week fully assumed the mantle of the say anything do anything pol (i.e. flip flopper) to get elected. He has long been viewed with suspicion by members of the swing voter groups because of his exotic background and his elitist tendencies (the speak Spanish comment, the latest of which).
Finally, the issues themselves give voters ample reason to reject him: (1) he is for an outmoded Iraq policy that is unresponsive to the military and strategic developments of the present and is moored to his anti-war past and (2) he refuses to embrace increased domestic production and more emphasis on nuclear power as a means of bridging us to energy independent despite the popularity of the view and the simplicity with which it can be communicated.
His is a candidacy in trouble.
Again, watch for the shifts this week in the national polls. The state polls by their nature are out of date.
Off topic but it has to be said: Ventura is a pussy. (I think even Pete Kent could take him.)
Well, in defense of Pete Kent, he does realize the polls and their effects. Rasmussen DID show a draw at one (!) day. And he says there will be an "inflection point", meaning that the election will now turn to McCain´s side in spite of everything that works in Obama´s favor.
But each of these arguments can be refuted: The tie in the race was the result of a single poll of a single pollster - whose state polls give a different impression than his national polls.
The inflection point is supposed to be caused by Obama´s character and campaign flaws. Regarding the supposed overemphasis on race: If you saw Obama´s speech at the NAACP yesterday you did not get the impression of a tiring black support, quite the contrary. Apart from that, I bet Obama would wish the race issue away if he could...it´s mostly in the minds of his enemies.
The financing issue is a bit difficult. For one, we havent yet seen a candidate really crushing his opponents by outspending them this season: Romney? Hillary pre-Iowa? Obama post-Ohio/Texas? In fact, both sides will probably make an argument of getting outspent at some point. Obama´s contributions will exceed McCain´s public financing, and McCains´s 527´s might exceed Obama. I think it will be a test of the Obama ground campaign: Does he have enough money to finance his massive ground campaign? And will they spend their money wisely and effectively? If yes, the ground campaign will increase turn-out and beat TV ads. If no, the ground campaign will siphon all energy out of advertisement. But I think a pure correlation is too much wishful thinking.
Anonymous about Minnesota:
My guess would be volatility due to wording of the possibility that there could be 3rd parties. Jesse Ventura was milking the whole on-the-fence about running thing. Now that the deadline is passed, I expect the polls will be more streamlined with more moderate statistical noise.
Metapoint: One of the things I truly dislike in politics is where someone identifies a trait in one group, and then, someone else tries to come into to say everyone is doing it. For instance, clearly here the conservatives/GOP types are just making up stuff not found in the numbers or in recent historical analysis. Now, we are having to read posts that say "everyone is doing that." No- the conservatives/GOP types are doing that here. If you want analytics- the first step is to describe who is doing what, or else you aren't being anlytical. You are creating a false equivalent. In terms of evidence building of a positon you essentially allow for a total lack of differentiating and weighing of the truthfulness of both prior and present claims. It's the worse habit of the media,a nd it's no better in this situation.
Non-meta point: I once again repeat that the dynamics favor Obama heavily. This is the issue in disspute. The original post was giving an example how. The fact is- and no one is discussing this- last cycle Kerry wasn't doing this until the fall. I have a friend who works in politics who told me at the time these are the things you should be doing during 5 and 6 months out. Obama is doing exactly the right organizing. I am not saying he's going to win. I am saying it increases the chances that he will. I don't know how that's disputable when the GOP and indeed prior versions of the Democratic Party proved this in the past. The only way you can spin this as a net plus for McCain is that you are biased. It would be a net plus for McCain if Obama were unorganized.
Hey Pete Ken, you were right there WAS a shift in the national polls...
"Sen. Barack Obama has a 50 - 41 percent lead over Arizona Sen. John McCain, according to a Quinnipiac University national poll of likely voters released today."
A 9 point lead for Obama is a shift! Hahaahaha
http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1295.xml?ReleaseID=1192
PS
You will note now we get to the deeper point of the conservative/GOP frame- which has been the frame all a long since the Southern Strategy. Namely- they think Obama will lose because he's black. They will remained you ad nauseum that Obama is black, even while pretending its Obama who is bringing the issue up.
Here's the problem with that argument- the impact of race is a reflection of demographics just like a lot of things in this country. This isn't theory. It's not fact yet either. But it definitely something I can back up. Namely, that race is a matter of what part of the country you live in as to its impact with regard to political outcomes. The problem McCain faces (and the GOP/conservatives who want to use race as the Southern Strategy wedge ) is that the places where Obama is likely to win aren't as influenced by Southern Strategy politics. That's the problem with using that language from the South as code, whcih essenntially is what my grandmother (I am African American) used to call the "uppidy nigger" threat. Obama will racialize, and blah, blah, blah. ALthough in fact you are the ones racializing. You real point is look at the black guy who thinks he's special. He's bringing race because I got a problem with his race.
I should not rise to the bait, but my prediction came pretty darn close.
Anon said: "Pete Kent said...
I think the current news cycle is taking its toll on Obama and I expect McCain to pass him in the Gallup and Rasmussen surveys by Sunday."
While Gallup remained static, Rasmussen was tied on Sunday and I correctly predicted the trend which I largely attributed to the Iranian missle provocation. Indeed Obama saw his five point edge evaoprate by Saturday in Rasussen and they remained tied on Sunday. My prediction was made on 7/9 and it came to pass in three days.
I like to think I have my finger to the wind -- others here may think i have it elsewhere!
Still I know I am wiser that most of you. I am a realist. Many here are not.
asmodeus-- agreed. im so tired of Jesse Ventura. it'll be just my luck that he'll soon broker a deal with a major cable news company and become a MSNBC's new independent "political strategist". ::shudder::
Pete Kent said...
I think the current news cycle is taking its toll on Obama and I expect McCain to pass him in the Gallup and Rasmussen surveys by Sunday.
If that is a direct quote, anon, then that's a shame. At times, Petey's perhaps one of two Republican partisans here maybe worth talking to, despite the occasional wad of certifiable hooey. (Fundraising numbers, etc.)
Summer polling is fickle, and McCain may well be up by September. In the meantime, there's no need to write increasingly desperate essays on why the current media cycle represents yet another "turning point".
A 4 point lead in the summer doesn't signify victory. A reduction of said 4 point summer lead to a 3 point summer lead does not represent a crucial watershed nor vindication for your closely held narrative of choice.
The only polls worth watching now are the state polls, and even then not the week by week numbers but the general aggregate, which shows us state specific fundamentals and the backdrop against which the real election will take place.
Stephen: Well, he'd be no less insightful or accurate than 90% of the other commentators out there, though I agree that his Value Over Replacement Pundit* isn't enough to justify getting paid a huge amount.
*I'm so sorry.
It was not just Rasmussen that supported my theory: the Newsweek Poll was dramatic evidence of it, showing a marked decline in Obama's support. When it had him way up there, many here defending it. Now it is being conveniently ignored, "thrown under the bus" so to speak. You learn well!
Some of you are crowing over that Quinnipiac poll (which I have not yet read). I do know that Q is a notoriously unreliable pollster so I only use it (like you all do) when it supports my side!
As far as all those recent state polls favoring Obama they were taken before the shift in the national polls occurred. They are now out of date.
As far as the race baiting goes. It is true that it is Obama and his folks bring it up constantly. They began this in the primary in SC and have never looked back. Their miscalculation will become manifest when it is revealed that America does not want a Black President. It simply wants a President.
Far from ushering in a post-racial era in our politics Obama is now intent on creating the first racial era. Dangerous ground, and if this drum beat keeps up will it will make the flip flopping seem like a foreshock to an earthquake that will shatter the foundation of his candidacy.
For the Marxists out there beware the lure of money. Obama has created a huge financial burden for himself without much opportunity. As another poster pointed out it did not do him or Romney much good as both were trounced by underfunded candidates repeatedly in the campaign.
Money cannot change who you are.
Incoming Message from Dr. Light said "I agree that his Value Over Replacement Pundit* isn't enough to justify getting paid a huge amount.
*I'm so sorry."
Please, don't be sorry. That has to be candidate for funniest comment ever on this site!
I propose we petition Nate to adopt it as a new metric for this site.
Theres a reason every expert and experienced pundit(even though I despise them) say the numbers don't matter until after the conventions. They don't. All this bickering is pointless. The polls are irrelevant. Anything can happen in the next 4 months so just relax, let Nate do his job. Everyone is interpreting results when Nate does it for us.
Haha Dr. Light-- yes it's the poor quality of commentary from ridiculously unqualified "strategists" that makes me fear and expect them to hire Ventura-- cause he's so edgy and post-partisan. if so i shall shoot myself
Anyone-- I'm watching cable news, which is more interesting today cause everyone's giving speeches rather than the same exact coverage every hour. So first Bush speaks on the economy, then Obama speaks on Iraq, then McCain speaks underneath a banner called "Jobs America New Mexico John McCain" (it might be a bit more of a cogent than that, I can't quite read one of the words) but only talks from prepared notes on foreign policy. Does anyone else find that strange? I would have thought Obama's speech would seem out of place today, cause McCain and Bush could have made the day on the economy, but now it's like Obama set the agenda. I won't get into which policies I support (Obama Obama) I just thought that was interesting.
"Theres a reason every expert and experienced pundit(even though I despise them) say the numbers don't matter until after the conventions. They don't. All this bickering is pointless. The polls are irrelevant. Anything can happen in the next 4 months so just relax, let Nate do his job. Everyone is interpreting results when Nate does it for us."
Again, the rationalization by the McCain (assuming you are) camp is fascinating, and strikingly similar to some of the stuff I heard for Kerry in 2004. Yes, it's true the- earth could fall into the sun too, but it's not a basis upon which we can analyze what's happening. What we can tell is that Obama- as is the subject matter of this post- is organizing much better than any Democratic in recent memory. That's a big deal no matter how many times you say it doesn't matter.
Anonymous -- Matt J.H. is far from a McCain camper, namely the opposite. He's just arguing to lower the spin war one either side and let things play out.
Almost everyone here is missing the point.
Obama's strength will not be evident in the polls until the very last day. MI, MO, OH, PA and VA have huge populations of unregistered potential Obama voters no poll can measure. Some of them will turn out.
You know Obama was 30 points behind the general election matchup against Hillary.
But on the ground in Iowa we had a 3-fold advantage in workers and volunteers.
What their organizing is doing is following the Iowa-Pyramid scheme. For months the 1000s of Obama ground organizers will be talking to locals and recruiting volunteers.
The last 3-4 weeks they will have battleground states organized county by county. Block by block.
Unless McCain raises considerable and realistic doubts about Obama been dangerous he will be annihilated.
Don't look at the polls too much. My suggestion would be to send all his organizing fellows to these 18 states and triple their numbers.
I think you will see that happening the last 4 weeks of the campaign.
The only tactical VP choice that makes sense right now is Bayh because he is really well known in Indiana and western Ohio and is close to Hillary.
Kathleen Sebelius is the only strategic choice that make sense to me.
pete kent,
You lurch from poll to poll, always attempting to glean some nugget that supports your view, in between posting your political commentary, and crowning yourself wiser than others here.
Such smarmy condescension, untrammeled by any factual analysis. You define yourself a "realist," yet a realist by definition shuns wishful thinking, and focuses on objective realities.
I have yet to see you offer any assessment which addresses the objective reality that Obama has a narrow lead at this time. That may change over time, but the chance that the election will be won or lost because of something happening TODAY is miniscule. In fact, it is more likely to occur for McCain as his "Social Security is a disgrace" comment is featured in ads (by Obama and AARP) in FL, OH, MI, PA and NV throughout September and October (McCain didn't just touch the third rail, he grasped it with both hands).
If you believe McCain's comments on Social Security will not harm him in the one dempgraphic where he consistently has had an edge, then you are truly engaged in wishful thinking.
McCain is trying something similar, people are not motivated though. I was asked to submit a resume to work full time between now and the election, but cannot do it because I am in private practice and need to keep my business open.
Last time around the polls were pretty close until the convention where Bush blew it open. He maintained that lead through the election.
(Check out the Graph:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/Presidential_04/chart3way.html
See the large surge the beginning of September, Thats the convention)
We'll get a much better idea of where we are during that same period this time around.
counsellorben: AARP claims to be non-partisan. I somehow doubt that they'll run ads or do anything else to get involved directly. They are a 501(c)(4), so they could, if they wanted to.
@Stephen:
I agree with your point. One nit-pick, though: Those staffers aren't making $4000/mo. I would say that, maybe, the state director is making that much ($50k/yr).
I was a local organizer in NH for a certain DNC chairman and my wage was about $1500/mo.
You don't do campaign work to get rich. I was able to do it then, as I was still in school. I wish I could work for Obama this year, but I just can't take that kind of a pay cut anymore.
Shane-- yeah thanks, someone else has pointed out my extremely generous wages, haha. Which I guess makes it an even more cost effective investment from my point of view.
Steve- Matt, and perhaps you are engaged in the false equivalancy analysis that plagues journalism. Humans are biased. They will spin. The question is here who is spin to what degree. How, for example, does a post about Obama organzing more effectively equate with spinning when ins variable? The false equivalance is where one pretends that is the same sht eposter who is claiming that Obama is plunging in the polls etc. They aren't even the same subject matter much less getting into the dynamic of whether the comment by the later poster is even true or not.
Incoming Message from Dr. Light,
As a non-profit, AARP can place issues ads. I cannot think of any issue of higher interest to seniors than Social Security.
counsellorben:
I credit your point that Obama does have a narrow lead at this time. And that lead is rooted in factors from the past and is not a forward looking view. My own elctoral tracker, BTW has Obama winning with 278 EVs right now.
The vectors in this campaign have changed. Iraq has changed, the perception of the energy crisis has changed and the narrative of who Barack Obama is and what he will bring to the Presdency has changed.
For me the reaction to the New Yorker cover cystalized it. The man's very idenity has become a huge distraction and he has become "the Black candidate". He cannot get elected from that perspective.
Who painted him into that corner is largely irrevevant, although I think he must bear some of the blame.
As an aside to answer your other point, Democrats have tried to demonize Republicans on Social Security for years (I retain vivid images of Carter on the Monday beofre the election trying to do it to Reagan) and it has not worked. Nor has the press in any meaningful way picked up the narrative.
You are sounding desperate!
That these threads are reaching 100+ posts with essentially flyby discussions is kind of depressing. The large leads a couple weeks ago were outliers. The small leads/ties this week may be outliers. The Obama campaign was pressured by the media to make a comment about the New Yorker cover.
Post hoc ergo propter hoc is a fallacy. If Obama's lead is shrinking, if summer polls mean anything, if we're sampling correctly, we could still be way off as to why. I consider it more likely, in fact, that the lead is shrinking a bit because gas prices have stabilized over the last two weeks, after months of rising a couple % a week where I am. Is that as good an explanation as "the American people dislike Obama's reaction to a satirical cover for a highly-specific magazine"? I have no idea. But the discussion is becoming a little sad.
Anonymous I've been exchanging with--
I'll easily give you that some spin is based on facts and some isn't. Pete Kent's spin is almost always based on his "finger to the wind" and hoping for something different than what is currently the case.
I too hate this "if there are two arguments they must both be equally valid points of view" mindset. It's all over the media, and infuriating.
What I'm saying here is the best thing to do now (and admittedly I can't force everyone else to do it) is to acknowledge the facts as they are and continue to observe how they change in the future.
For example, I think, personally, that Obama will trounce McCain in one on one debate and that will solidify an already slight lead in the Fall. But it's just an opinion and I don't think it's worth trying to sell this to others as an absolute truth.
Alex--
Yu miss my point: The American people don't "dislike" Obama's reaction to the cover. They dislike having to deal with it all.
Joe Biden would not present such complications. Neither, I suspect would Michale Steele."
Sorry some of you don;t like my "finger to the wind" approach, but this is a site dedicating to projections. We must extrapolate from developments.
Guys, Kent is just trying to get under all your skin, and he's succeeding. Just ignore his posts. He'll go away if you ignore him.
Redshift, I concede your point. The way I first read your post I thought you were suggesting that polls would prove inaccurate throughout the campaign due to a ground-war effect.
The organization on the ground is likely to improve Obama's numbers between now and election day, and as long as that is not outweighed in key states (or nationally) by McCain's air-war or major errors on Obama's part, it will be reflected in the October polls - and on November 4th.
Uh, for the record, Social Security is a disgrace....
And also for the record, counsellorben, you like to describe Pete Kent as having "smarmy condescension" but it only takes reading about 10 words of any of your posts to pick up the exact feeling you accuse him of....
Stephen
this post isn't even about polling. It was about organizing. It was the spin about the polling to deflect fromt he organizing discussion that's the problem. My point is look at the circumstances- thats it.
Pete, Pete Kent!
Stephen Baldwin called. He wants his brain back...
Anonymous--
true true. it'll be fun to see how it all plays out.
Their ground game seems to be fairly well organized. As an Illinois resident, they already have a grassroots outreach staffers who are responsible for dividing up all the Illinois volunteers to the various nearby battleground states.
For instance, one staffer described to us that southern Illinois volunteers would all be sent to Missouri. The very northern tier of Illinois would be going to Wisconsin, the north side of Chicago and most of the suburbs would be going to Iowa and the south side of Chicago and central Illiois would go to Indiana.
They are organizing car pools every weekend until November to all those states for Illinois volunteers. Granted this is just one state, his home state, but I find it very comforting that they are doing their best to get volunteers engaged and doing it early in the campaign.
The folks Obama plays poker with in the Senate say he is a low-risk and cautious gambler. If he's gambling on this strategy, I suspect it is the right one. He's also very frugal by nature so I doubt his campaign would spend money unwisely.
Pete, you miss mine. I don't know whether anyone at all cares about the NY cover, having to deal with it, if it affects them, etc. Your claim "we must extrapolate from developments" is the entire problem. We have no way of knowing which "developments" are meaningful in an electoral sense and by no means a complete set of "developments" from which to assign significance. I put forward the idea of gas-price stabilization as something that hasn't been discussed, but which could have an effect on polls. There ways the election could be nudged at this point are legion.
By discussing the polls (high variable data points) only in the context of whatever is dominating the media each day is not elucidative. We can look at the polls and say "there was a large uptick for Obama" and say "it looks like there's a bit of a downtick now," but attempts to tie them to a media frenzy and make bold predictions about trendlines is more a waste of time than anything else.
Pete Kent said to me "You are sounding desperate!"
Not especially at this moment, but that may change by October. For either of us.
Anonymous @12:23p says that Social Security is a disgrace and that I also am guilty of "smarmy condescension."
First, do you really believe that you are in the mainstream on Social Security?
In 2005, the Republican led Congress wanted nothing to do with Bush's proposed "reforms," because the Republican leadership saw how the issue polled, and they wanted to be re-elected. I think the Republican leadership allowed a few "show hearings" on the Bush proposals, but they failed, because polling showed the vast majority opposed the changes.
Do you believe that public opinion has shifted dramatically in your direction in the past three years? Do you really think McCain's position on Social Security (very similar to Bush's failed 2005 proposals) will help him with any portion of the electorate?
Secondly, condescension is defined here as follows:
1 : voluntary descent from one's rank or dignity in relations with an inferior
2 : patronizing attitude or behavior
Do I fit either of those definitions? Possibly. I do not feel any of my posts have been patronizing, but that is in the mind of the reader.
I certainly do not feel that I have treated anyone here as an inferior. I have challenged people to be more factual and parrot less partisan spin, but that does not translate into suggesting inferiority.
PPP, South Carolina
John McCain 45
Barack Obama 39
Bob Barr 5
Bush vs Kerry in SC: 58-41
Two things- 1- Pete it seems is posting to irritate other posters (and doing well at it), and 2- other people are posting back to not refute his claims (although many are) but rather to drop to the same level in attacking him as he is doing to Obama (which people are rightly critical of)- so it seems a little ridiculous to criticize him for the same offense many of you are in essence doing in your criticisms of him.
But Pete the cherry-picking is getting insane. And by the way Quinnipiac is a good pollster- check the rankings-but nice job admitting you only use polling for your advantage.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/latestpolls/index.html
GE polls today: 9,2, and 4 pt advantages for Obama (5 pt average). the bumb that McCain got that everyone claimed to have predicted is now over using the definitions people had to claim it existed. One weekend of polling that was close surrounded by a whole week of +5 last week, and a Tuesday +5 average means that a- either it tightened and then something happened at the end of the weekend-or b, the more likely case- that the "bump" was statistical noise- and the 5 pt advantage that has been here for quite some time is still there.
But as many are posting- until conventions and VP's- these polls aren't as important-it'll get clearer as to what will happen once those events occur.
I hope you get a lot of McCain blog spam points, Mrs. Kent!
lompe,
Regarding the SC poll, the only July 2004 poll in SC, found here, was SUSA, showing Bush +7.
We cannot draw anything positive (or negative) from this single poll, showing McCain +6. It is consistent with the current trend-adjusted polling for SC. SC will go for McCain, other than in a total Obama landslide.
Please don't force me to do these posts. I do not want to be seen as a fellow traveler with Pete Kent.
Obama's campaign is mining a resource that McCain simply doesn't have available to him: the enthusiasm of their supporters.
counsellorben,
All I said was SS was a disgrace...I didn't try and entangle myself in the politics of addressing it and why who was supporting what when because they were trying to get elected. And actually I do think the mainstream thinks SS is flawed. I don't know what "mainstream" you refer to that think it's okay.
In any event, the "mainstream" isn't always right. I bet you're part of the "mainstream" that think rampant speculation as opposed to supply/demand factors are driving up energy prices unnecessarily. You probably think it is a big behind-the-scenes conspiracy. I don't know the numbers, but I think more than half the country are blaming it on those factors. They're wrong, and if you agree, you are wrong as well. I can present mounds of evidence suggesting that speculation is not a cause.
So don't go making a point on "mainstream opinion." Aren't you the one who always demands fact-based arguments.
Isn't SS proven to be headed for a financial disaster in the next 15-50 years if something isn't done right now?
Give me a break, and give me some facts. You want facts when it's convenient to make your point, and you want to spin and use hyperbole when that's convenient.
Counsellorben: I don't think you're quite right about the significance of PPP SC. It is a data point that confirms the validity, today, of Nate' models for the South Coast. That's useful to know, as we didn't have VA and NC polled through the recent dip, or pseudo-dip.
DiggsB
You're right. If only Pete Kent could share his enthusiasm with the rest of the McCain world (...instead of here....?), McCain could have a fighting chance. haha...
This is anecdotal, but I worked the primaries for Obama in Pa the borough I canvassed was a high democrat/low performing area. We made it perform quite well. The second wave Obama are here to increase registration. I whined about cost effectiveness since we worked it so hard in the spring. We are less than half way through the drive and have added eight hundred new voters. I honestly didn't think we could scrape two hundred together.
Talk trash all you want but ask McCains people if they can turn out eight hundred new voters with 14 volunteers.
Meanwhile, back to the topic of the post. Isn't this the same conventional wisdom that we heard before the 2004 election? Namely, that Kerry's (really, Soros') paid armies of poll workers and door knockers would deliver a GOTV effort like no other? And, of course, that conventional wisdom was tured on its head after the election once the numbers came in showing that the GOP GOTV effort was much more effective because it used 1) volunteers who were passinate about their candidate who 2) knew the people that they were getting to the polls.
Paid "stranger" Dem GOTV workers weren't as successful as unpaid volunteer "known" GOP GOTV workers were in 2004.
True, the CW isn't always right, and true, Obama is certainly the favorite, and true, I fully expect the GOP GOTV effort to suffer because of a lack of enthusiasm for McCain, but. . .
it seems a stretch to laud Obama's use of the same methods that failed Kerry.
Anon in MO
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the "organizing fellows" are just that-- people organizing the local volunteers. The local volunteers are the people doing the actual talking-to-local-people-they-know deal, not the paid organizers.
Anonymous @1:43p said "Isn't SS proven to be headed for a financial disaster in the next 15-50 years if something isn't done right now?"
No, that is the baseless fear mongering. Check out this report for a good understanding of the issues. The "crisis" is that, without any changes, it is projected that Social Security will only be able to pay out 78% of scheduled benefits in 2041.
So we are 33 years from a benefit reduction, if nothing is done. Modest changes in funding, retirement age or benefits will address this manufactured "crisis."
You also accuse me of spin, which shows you could not be bothered to read my post. "Mainstream opinion" as reflected by polling in 2005 (you can find some poll results here and here) was against Bush's proposals.
The Republican led Congress did not even bother bringing Bush's proposals to the House or Senate floors for a vote. Another fact. Since the Republicans were in charge of the House and Senate, why didn't they bring Bush's proposals to either floor for a vote?
You call my arguments "spin" solely because you disagree.
Get informed.
Anonymous @1:45p
You are absolutely right that the SC poll represents more confirmation for Nate's model.
I was commenting on lompe's tying the current poll to the final Bush/Kerry results, since there is no basis for logical comparison between a June 2008 poll and the final 2004 results.
Here's a suggestion to everyone who keeps posting back-and-forth:
Get off the computer and go organize out in the real world. You're not going to win over (or register) any new voters via e-debates on obscure websites frequented by political junkies.
counsellorben made the point that SS is notheaded for a financial disaster, calling it "baseless fear mongering". And asserting: "Check out this report for a good understanding of the issues. The "crisis" is that, without any changes, it is projected that Social Security will only be able to pay out 78% of scheduled benefits in 2041."
Seems like we have other pressing issues.
The why is OPbama so anxious to raise payroll taxes on familes with household incomes over $200,000? And examining applying that tax to all sorts of income, not just wages?
Mmmmm . . . could it be fairness?
He had better watch out: that net will trap a lot of people in NY, NY and CA!
counsellorben,
For some people, paying out only 78 percent of scheduled benefits, especially those who rely on it and it's barely enough, think that might be a "financial disaster."
And "tweaking" it the way Barack Obama is expected to will only exacerbate the issue.
You only cite one source of those who stake an argument about the survival of SS down the road. I've seen other sources not as positive. Anybody can cherry-pick one source that's rosy towards their opinion.
It doesn't matter anyway because I'm socking away 20% of my own salary towards retirement. So Barack Obama can tweak it all he wants for all the "mainstream" people who want a handout and don't want to plan for their future.
I never heard your opinion on oil speculation, counsellorben. You're so condescending in telling me to get informed, but I want to know where you stand on that issue. Come on. Don't hide.
I'm starting to see a trend here, and thanks to counsellorben for being my test subject.
Democrats have finally picked up on something of late and are starting to fight back. For the longest time, the Republicans have consistently labelled Democrats as tax-and-spend and/or always wanting to raise taxes no matter what. Sometimes this has been true, while many others it has not. Anyway, the Dems are finally starting to fight back and defend themselves and point out that just because its Republican mantra, it doesn't mean it's exactly true.
However, I have to offer something the Republicans need to watch out for that Dems are starting to do more and more. Anytime there is a piece of negative news or pessimism surrounding anything in our society, particularly if it's something where the negativity might benefit Reps, the Dems accuse them of "fear-mongering." We hear it all the time now - "They're just using the politics of 'fear.'" Okay, maybe there have been some embellishments on the part of Reps, but many times they have just been speaking the truth. Yet all they get from the other side is a blind accusation of fear-mongering.
I'm sure counsellorben uses that excuse for just about any conservative ideal that runs contrary to his opinions.
Obama worst presidential candidate ever said... As a McCain supporter ...
And boy does it show; like all his supporters, ignorant and dumb as a doorknob.
I can present mounds of evidence suggesting that speculation is not a cause.
That's a mighty dumb thing to say after the price of oil just had its largest drop in 17 years, due entirely to speculation jitters.
However, I have to offer something the Republicans need to watch out for that Dems are starting to do more and more. Anytime there is a piece of negative news or pessimism surrounding anything in our society, particularly if it's something where the negativity might benefit Reps, the Dems accuse them of "fear-mongering." We hear it all the time now - "They're just using the politics of 'fear.'"
We hear it all the time because it's true all the time, cretin.
Okay, maybe there have been some embellishments on the part of Reps, but many times they have just been speaking the truth.
Name one, liar. OTOH, the right wingers accuse "libruls" of fear mongering over global warming, despite AGW being a well-established scientific truth.
Right wing/Republican == lying corrupt hypocrite ignoramus ... you can take that to the bank.
Re Fear Mongering
Chenney - 2004 - If you vote for Kerry, you may wake up to find a mushroom cloud over an American city.
McCain's campaign chief advisor 2008- A terrorist attack would benefit McCain.
If you need to delude yourself that the GOP doesn't engage in fear mongering, that's up to you. But, don't expect the rest of us to be deaf, dumb and blind along with you.
Suppose 20 million workers were able today to take their Social Security payroll taxes and invest them in the stock market, as Bush and McCain have proposed.
How much of a shortfall in Social Security would we see and how quickly would it come? Never mind "78% of benefits in 2041"; the shortfall would come far more quickly and far more dramatically.
NcCain has since "clarified" his remarks calling the very heart of Social Security a "disgrace," but I still think his original remarks are the more accurate. They reveal either the depths of his ignorance or the depths of his malice. Probably both.
Social Security, whether you like it or not, has kept millions of our elderly out of poverty. Some here want to imply that those people are simply stupid for not hoarding their money under a mattress somewhere. Maybe they are stupid; to some of the more "elitist" Republicans posting here, I'm sure working hard one's whole life, raising a family, and struggling to get by is "stupid."
It is unfortunate that not everyone can be born the son of an admiral and marry into money. It is beyond unfortunate that just such a man, who sucks yearly off the government teat, would then turn around and decry the "disgrace" of a program that helps the millions who are too stupid to join the Lucky Sperm Club.
This is perhaps more indicative of his character than any amount of military service, no matter how heroic.
But we all have our lot in life.
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酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店小姐兼職,
便服酒店工作,
酒店打工經紀,
制服酒店經紀,
專業酒店經紀,
合法酒店經紀,
酒店暑假打工,
酒店寒假打工,
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店小姐兼職,
便服酒店工作,
酒店打工經紀,
制服酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
菲
梵,
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