7.24.2008

The Reverse Nader Effect

I've commented once before on how Ralph Nader could actually wind up helping Barack Obama, but until Chris Bowers pointed it out, I hadn't realized how much better Obama was running in polls where the third-party candidates are called out by name. According to Chris's data, Obama is polling fully two-and-a-half points better in national polls that have run versions both with and without Nader and Bob Barr -- and the differences seem to be increasing rather than decreasing.

There is a fancier explanation here involving green M&M's and the Monty Hall Problem, but the the basic one is commonsensical. When a voter indicates that their first choice is Ralph Nader, we can reasonably infer that they do not like Barack Obama. These Nader votes are not coming from people on the progressive left who are trying to play it cute; 2000 taught Democrats a lesson that they won't forget until they take back the White House. Instead, they're coming from PUMAs and other left-of-center voters who find Obama unacceptable for one or another reason (if they were right-of-center voters who found Obama unacceptable, they'd just vote for McCain). We should not be surprised that, having determined that these voters consider Obama unacceptable, they'd pledge their votes to McCain if he's the only other choice.

But McCain isn't the only other choice; Nader and Barr will appear on the ballot in most states, and you can always sit out the election, undervote the Presidential race, or write somebody's (Hillary's?) name in. The general rule of thumb is that third party votes decrease as we get nearer to the election; that's why most polling -- and almost all of our state polling -- does not call out Nader and Barr. But if McCain is picking up 2 or 3 points' worth of support from aggrieved Clinton voters who say they prefer Nader when given the choice, I'm not sure how many of those votes he can expect on Election Day.

162 comments

Anonymous said...

Doesn't WSJ have any cross-tabs on the third-party vote?

Nate said...

@8:25. No, there's nothing. Some of the other polls that Bowers mentioned might, but I'm too lazy to look through them.

Anonymous said...

Usually by election day third parties fade but there are enough conservatives unhappy with McCain who may actually vote third party in protest.
Obama may actually be doing better than we believe. Also even people who will vote for McCain are not very excited.
Obama will really have to screw up to lose this election.

Veritas said...

Come election day, the doddering Nader and hypocrite Bob Barr will each get no more than 1% of the vote, but the morons who vote for those sure-loser creeps could matter in a super-close state.

Anonymous said...

One more reason to track Rasmussen without leaners.

Anonymous said...

@ Veritas,

I take offense at being called a moron for voting for Bob Barr rather than John McCain.

Your comment is way off base and you should apologise.

Anonymous said...

That's basically it.

Most of Obama's support is pro-Obama support.

McCain's is a mix of pro-McCain and anti-Obama sentiment.

In most polls, Obamna keeps most of his % when 3rd parties are folded in (usually mid to high 40s), but McCain generally drops from low to mid 40s to mid 30s when 3rd parties are thrown in.

I think I've yet to see a poll that included 3rd party candidates where McCain was as high as 40%.

If you say Obama or McCain...choose! you're pretty much forcing people with residula resentment of Obama, as well as those who think he's unprepared for the job to say McCain.

If you open up the choices, McCain loses a lot of that group, but Obama doesn't. People who are for Obama are really FOR Obama, whether is is one of two choices or one of four.

Reality Sucks said...

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Allen said...

As I posted over at OpenLeft:

Third party candidates only matter in swing states. The national numbers don't matter, nor do supporters of thirty party candidates in solidly blue or red states. They are not going to effect the election anyway, so why not support a third party candidate? The only thing that matters is voters who are willing to "throw their votes away" by voting for a third party candidate in a swing state. I think that number is much smaller. See Florida in 2004: the number of Nader voters was less than 0.5% (perhaps they learned their lesson in 2000).

jsh1120 said...

The media continues, as it always does, to insist that third party candidates be assessed in terms of their place on a left-right continuum. In fact, what both Nader and Barr represent to a large extent is an anti-political perspective that isn't captured by that continuum.

It's especially noteworthy that Nader hurts McCain more than Barr. The reason is simple; name recognition as a long-standing anti-establishment figure. For a significant minority of Americans endorsement by either major political party is a minus, not a plus. And the particular ideological predisposition of a third party candidate is largely irrelevant.

Neither the media nor the polling organizations they employ are well-suited to interpret this contrarian perspective, but it continues to be a significant part of the American political scene.

Anonymous said...

I really like the insight that McCain may suffer from Nader as well because of left of center Clinton supporters. I would not underestimate how much some of them loathe Sen. Obama though.

I mean they really really really dislike him. Some of these left of center voters are probably going to vote for McCain particularly if the race in their state is close. They would like nothing more than to actually have their vote matter and if they are in a swing state it will. Either way, the "PUMA" vote is pretty small and probably shrinking.

Hey Anonymi Just Pick A Name! said...

Today's Ras tracking: Obama 45 to 41, 48 to 45 w/leaners; slightly larger lead than Rasmussen has been showing.

Doesn't look like they are releasing any state polls today, usually mentioned in the press release.

Anonymous said...

BAD DAY FOR OBAMA IN QUINNIPIAC POLLS!!!!

DOWN BY 2 IN COLORADO!!!

UP ONLY 2 IN MINNESOTA!!!

UP ONLY 4 IN MICHIGAN!!!

GOOD LEAD IN WISCONSIN--11 POINTS!!!

Anonymous said...

Clearly, anti-Obama democrats are better off voting for Nader than McCain.

It would be interesting to see that effect in every state.

Pete Kent said...

Take a look at what I wrote @ 8:11 last night in the Today's Polls 7/23 Thread:

"In the four man race Nader seems to pull more from McCain than Obama and Barr is barely a factor. This suggests to me that in polling at least McCain is attracting some protest votes among the PUMAs and the Daily KOS crowd."

This is precisely the point that Nate is making today! Great minds think alike! And I scooped our host!

Many of you like to mock me and deride what I have to say, but I think I come closer than many in seeing what's out there and how these tea leaves ought to be read.

Sorry for the bragging, but I get kicked around so much on this site, that I could not help defending myself.

So many of you post drivel and confabulate over nonsense. I know the names and skip over their posts. Y'all can't see the forrest for the trees most times.

lilnev said...

New Q polls, don't look good for Obama:

COLORADO: McCain 46 - Obama 44
MICHIGAN: Obama 46 - McCain 42
MINNESOTA: Obama 46 - McCain 44
WISCONSIN: Obama 50 - McCain 39

McCain's first lead in CO, and a miniscule 2 points in MN (down from 17 last month -- that's going to hurt the Super Tracker). MI and WI are more in line with our expectations, though still a 2 pt drop in each.

Hey Anonymi Just Pick A Name! said...

Ugh, don't like those Quinnipiac polls. But +11 in Wisconsin vs. only +2 in Minnesota doesn't seem logical. Also strange that Q would be so out of line with Rasmussen on MN.

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Anonymous said...

OBAMA IS ABROAD DOING A HOLIDAY

MCCAIN IS WINNING

HE'S UP EVERYWHERE

MCCAIN WILL WIN

YES WE WILL

Pete Kent said...

Those Q polls other than WI do look bad for Obama. He needs a margin of soemthing like 3 points at least to counter the risk of a Bradley effect and has to watch the undecideds. If they are high and break for McCain 6 to 4 sort of like they did for Clinton, what appears to be a modest lead in the election day polls will turn out to be a win for McCain.

While nationally BO is getting a small boost from his Rainbow Tour, in certain pockets, like MI, I think it plays badly as it seems in disregard to the lunch bucket issues that heartland voters care about. Put OH and parts of PA in this category as well.

Undecided said...

The Q polls will be easily explained away, just watch...

Anonymous said...

There is just no way that MN is only +2 for O.

There is just absolutely no way he underperforms Kerry in the upper midwest, at least not with the way things currently stand...

Hey Anonymi Just Pick A Name! said...

Odd that anyone would think that caps lock makes their post in any way more persuasive.

lilnev said...

The internals on the Q polls all look reasonable age- and gender-wise. These are Likely Voters, with leaners, no third party candidates, large sample sizes, and no "set-up" questions before the headline choice question; so it all looks legit.

Of interest -- in all four states, energy policy is considered more important than the war in Iraq. Obama leads narrowly on "who has the better energy policy", except CO where they're tied -- but lots of undecideds on that question as well.

Anonymous said...

EXPLAIN AWAY PEOPLE, EXPLAIN AWAY!!! IS TODAY A DAY WHERE WE LIKE RASMUSSEN OR DISLIKE HIM?? FOR COLORADO AND MINNESOTA, WE LIKE HIM....FOR OHIO, NOT SO MUCH...HAHAHAHHAHAHH

Hey Anonymi Just Pick A Name! said...

Well lilnev, it's clear then that after he returns Obama his work cut out for him explaining -- and absolutely running ads -- on energy policy, and on the economy in general.

But I'm sure the campaign is well aware of this.

Juris said...

I love the reference to the Monty Hall game. I suspect Nate has a special affinity for that decision problem.

As for the choice between candidates, when you vote for a small party candidate you are very likely throwing away your vote -- if your objective is to elect that minor party candidate. (At least in our plurality/majority winner take all electoral system. There is of course another scenario, in which you may hope to throw the ultimate decision into the House of Representatives, and perhaps give your third party candidate some leverage in the political negotiations; but the odds of that are, well, there's an article about that on this site somewhere.)

It's not even the best way to go if you're seeking to punish a particular major party candidate who you may want to punish -- let's say it's Obama for the sake of argument -- because you can do more damage to him if you vote for an opponent who has a real chance of winning, i.e., McCain. But maybe you don't really like McCain either; or you like him less than you do Obama.

So why don't you just abstain rather than vote for #3 (Barr, Nader)? Because you're a committed citizen. Yes you can skip voting for President (it does happen -- see the Caltech/MIT Voting Technology Project).

But you want more "satisfaction" or "revenge" or to register a "protest" and for that purpose merely not showing up (or undervoting) doesn't allow you to record your objection. Nor does joining the herd and voting for the major party opponent, who in any case may be a candidate you dislike.

So instead you do vote but for a third party candidate. That vote says, "I care." But you've done your most-hated candidate a favor, since it's likely to increase his chances of winning relative to what would happen if you had voted for the major party opponent.

And maybe that's the message you want to deliver anyway: "OK Obama, I don't mind your winning, actually, but I've got my revenge and you'd better remember me."

Anonymous said...

great analysis. The lefties (mostly pro-Clinton) who hate Obama may choose McCain in a two choice poll, but choose Nader in a 4 choice poll or the election itself. I think you're right that McCain can't count on all of these voters to come to him in the end. Some of them still might yet go back to Obama, if the primaries are enough in the past and/or if they are particularly concerned about an issue like the economy that they think only a democrat could fix. Others will remain angry with Obama and just not vote, or vote for the third party. Perhaps only a few will migrate all the way to McCain.

Alex S. said...

The 3rd party issue seems to strengthen the narrative that this election is Obama´s to win or lose. On the one hand, many of these voters might end up in McCain´s camp, on the other hand Obama can win them over, they are not pro-McCain. So the most likely result between with-3rd-party-candidates and without will be somewhere in the middle, depending on Obama´s actions.

Regarding the new Quinnipiac polls, argh, more confusion... 2 in Minnesota, 11 in Wisconsin... weird.

Alex S. said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Once again you mention PUMA. Do some research, PUMA was started by a McCain supporter not a Hillary supporter, it's a farce that the media perpetuates. Any so called Hillary supporter in this group is an idiot as a quick check of McCain's voting record shows he is no friend to women. People that are so gullible to vote for McCain despite his obious ling standing record demonstrate a unabashed stupidity.

Dan said...

That 47-48 number is solid for Obama, it's McCain's support that's much softer.

Strategy '08

Incoming Message from Dr. Light said...

Quinnipiac-MN and Quinnipiac-CO aren't unreasonable; SUSA's always had MN as being closer than the rest of the pollsters, and McCain has led in CO in the past, albeit in polls that have dropped off the tracker.

Juris said...

Look at field dates of the Quinnipiac Polls. From a quick perusal of their website, it appears that the field dates were July 14-22 -- for all of them? The median date (not necessarily median in terms of when interviews were completed) is thus July 18 -- prior to Obama's trip abroad.

Thus, they are not favorable to Obama but they also don't speak to whether there is any bump from the recent international trip.

Adam said...

That 47-48 might be solid for Obama - but he's not going to win if the undecideds break heavily against him as they did in a lot of primary states.

Anonymous said...

SHOULD I VOTE FOR NADER OR MCKINNEY? I'M NOT VOTING FOR PRO-DEATH PENALTY, PRO-ISRAEL, PRO-ETHANOL PANDERING, PRO-FISA BARACK....I THINK NADER IS MORE EXPERIENCED BUT I WOULD FEEL GUILTY NOT VOTING FOR FIRST AFRICAN-AMERICAN MAJOR PARTY CANDIDATE SO I MIGHT GO WITH MCKINNEY TO ASSUAGE MY GUILT (ALTHOUGH I SUPPOSE NADER IS BROWN AS WELL)

jeremy said...

If I'm reading this right one thing about the CO poll is both candidates are getting equal support from their respective parties, but Obama has an 8 point leas with indies. In 2004 the party id difference was a 4 point lead for the GOP. Could this gap really have doubled for Republicans in the state while moving significantly towards Democrats nationally?

Anonymous said...

Well it's becoming very obvious pollsters are using completely different demographic break downs of republican, dems, independents and thus different methodoligies. There is no way a poll taken 1 day apart should have a 11 point difference as in MN or in the case of OH earlier this week 18 point difference(Obama +8 to McCain +10). What is interesting is that I can no longer find the Dem, Repub, Indepndent breakdowns as easy as before. Qinnipiac does a long report of it's polls today and doesn't mention it. They tell you how many support each but don;t say how they weighted each in the poll..ie. what % of the total surveyed.

Guy said...

Another reason why Nader may help Obama in polls is the contrast effect: with Nader in mind, Obama doesn't look so liberal anymore.

Justin said...

As Juris pointed out, the Quinnipiac polls were conducted mostly before Obama's trip--while the media was pushing the FISA story and flip-flopper meme. So, you have to expect his support to be a bit soft during that period. While it doesn't look that good for Obama right now, we could see him rebound from those numbers very quickly in polls taken primarily during and after this week.

MVRed.com said...

Quinnipiac Polls
* Michigan: Obama 46, McCain 42
* Minnesota: Obama 46, McCain 44
* Colorado: McCain 46, Obama 44
* Wisconsin: Obama 50, McCain 39

Michigan seems in line with the 538 tracker, with Obama up 3-4 points.

Minnesota is a shocker, even I think Obama has this state won and leads around 8-10 points [outlier].

Colorado is interesting. It is the first poll this year I believe McCain has a lead in, but it is not an outlier, since Obama only leads in the averages around 2-3 points, so it's not out of the realm to say McCain could be up here.

Wisconsin is also in line with the averages, Obama will win here.

The Bottom Line: Bad polls for Obama in Michigan and Colorado. These are two states Romney could push McCain to victory in. There are a lot of mormons in Colorado, and Romney is well liked in Michigan although you guys beg to differ.

Minnesota and Wisconsin are locks for Obama.

Michigan is a toss-up leaning Obama.

Colorado is now in my book a pure toss-up.

It does not appear Rasmussen will have anymore state polls for today I presume??

Juris said...

I seem to recall that Rasmussen said they'd have some state polls to report every day this week. So there may yet be more coming today.

tibor75 said...

I just gotta laugh at some of these hysterical comments from Obama's supporters. Oh no! Down 10 in Ohio - we should have picked Hillary. Yes! Up 2 in Florida. All the way baby! Oh my God! barely winning in Minnesota. The sky is falling!

Just pathetic. Grow a spine. Obama is doing fine. Minnesota is his. There are zero polls that show him down in the state. Down 2 in Colorado is the same as being up 2 - have you heard about margin of error?

Anonymous said...

Colorado is close but an 8 point GOP party id lead in that poll is oversampling Republicans.

Anonymous said...

TO JEREMY AND ANONYMOUS---

PARTY ID WAS COMPARED BY NATE FOR PPP AND RASMUSSEN OH POLLS..AND HE SAID THE DIFFERENCE THERE WAS NEGLIGIBLE....

AS FOR CO PARTY ID, THAT SEEMS ODD, AND COULD EXPLAIN WHY THE DROP IN THE SENATE RACE (10 POINTS) IS ACTUALLY MORE PRECIPITOUS THAN OBAMA'S DROP FROM LAST Q POLL (7 POINTS)

I HATE TO SAY I AGREE WITH MV-RED, BUT I DO. MN AND WI ARE LOCKS. CO IS TOSS-UP. MI LEANS OBAMA (I WOULD NOT SAY TOSSUP LEANING OBAMA--AND I DO THINK ROMNEY CAN HELP MCCAIN HERE)

OH IS ALSO TOSS-UP DESPITE WHAT MV-RED SAYS BASED ON HIS PERSONAL FRIENDS

Adam said...

I thought someone said that Q was going to release a poll for FL today. Anyone know? I could be mistaken.

unertl said...

Any clues about the widely disparate Minnesota polls? They either have Obama crushing with a huge double digit lead or Obama leading by just a hair. There's no in-between.

markyt said...

re. previous comment, just because CO is next to UT doesn't mean it has a "lot of Mormons":

http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2007/04/04/GR2007040400256.gif

Anonymous said...

Nate, there haven't been that many polls that ask Nader, and the ones that do tend to be really bad (look at Zogby), so you really can't make these statements when the data beg a question.

Clark Miller said...

I would be seriously surprised if the Party ID numbers for the Colorado survey by Q turn out to be even close. If you look at the details of that survey, you see two very good things for Obama:

1. He matches McCain's numbers among republicans with his numbers among democrats, and

2. He wins independents by 10.

My guess is that Colorado is still leaning Obama's way by a couple of points.

It should also be noted that the bulk of the Q polling in all four states occurred prior to Obama's trip abroad (July 14-21 are the survey dates), which was pretty much Obama's worst few days in a month. I think these are good numbers for Obama.

Michael said...

I want to see more polling on Indiana. And by the way, I'm not convinced that Obama couldn't lose Ohio and win Indiana, for three reasons:

(1) Since Indiana is next to Illinois and part of it is in the Chicago media market, Obama has high recognition there.
(2) Perhaps because they know him well, he is clearly popular there, as shown by his near-victory in the primaries.
(3) Hillary drubbed Obama in the Ohio primaries.

Anonymous said...

I'm sick of these damn concern trolls - Obama's only up by 2! Obama's only up by 4! Why isnt he doing better??!!!

Get a life and get back to me when your candidate starts to show any signs of running a competent campaign.

Anonymous said...

I'm really not sure why so many people think that it is odd that MN and WI are different. I live in MN and this state is going to be close, a lot of rural white democrats are pro-life and not real excited about Obama, especially against a "war-hero" with McCain. This state really depends on the suburbs of the Twin Cities, if they go for McCain, he will win the state.

Juris said...

To those who are shouting in all caps. Why so hysterical? Can't you just talk? Always a signal just to skip over the comment.

To Clark and Justin: I don't see the Q polls as particularly favorable to Obama, but I do think the timing has to be taken into account. Also, to the extent that some national polls have become more favorable to Obama in recent days (e.g., WSJ/NBC, Gallup Tracking and Rasmussen) there is some counterbalance in momentum.

But as it's sometimes said, "It's a marathon, not a sprint." There's a race to be run yet.

Hey Anonymi Just Pick A Name! said...

Down 2 in Colorado is the same as being up 2 -

No, no it isn't. Have you read nothing about polling?

have you heard about margin of error?

Gee, I dunno, you think people commenting at 538 have heard of MoE? It doesn't mean that being down 2 is the same as being up 2.

Win1withme said...

People said I was nuts 2 days ago when I said McCain will win CO by at least 5 and that he will own OH. Once Obama stumbles home from his follies in Europe and the Middle East his numbers will get even worse.

Anonymous said...
BAD DAY FOR OBAMA IN QUINNIPIAC POLLS!!!!

DOWN BY 2 IN COLORADO!!!

UP ONLY 2 IN MINNESOTA!!!

UP ONLY 4 IN MICHIGAN!!!

GOOD LEAD IN WISCONSIN--11 POINTS!!!

jsh1120 said...

I've been impressed by Quinnipiac's work in the states where they have experience, none of which are included here.

The CO results are especially difficult to understand and look like a suspiciously heavy GOP sample. From the x-tabs that appears to be the only way McCain could be leading.

Likewise, Minnesota results seem very odd, both in terms of Q's own past results and that of virtually all the other polling in the state.

I don't know anything about Q's "likely voter" screen and perhaps it's to blame, but I don't understand how it could account for such discrepant results.

Anonymous said...

MVRed- I thought your analysis was quite good- a reasoned approach to the data rather than troll-like spin every other conservative seems to put on every poll.
However- CO has only 2% mormon population. Considering that this population is a safe Republican base anyway I find it hard to believe that Romney will help out due to this. Unless he can bring out their vote at a higher rate than before (or perhaps keep them voting if they wouldn't like to vote for McCain otherwise) I don't see how this is so important.
Although- it is reasonable to guess he could help there otherwise. I think he speaks incredibly well- and his advisors do as well. As someone who is very liberal even I don't mind Romney so much. His advisor that is on MSNBC all the time is a refreshing conservative voice- and somehow I find myself liking him despite being against all his policies. While I would of course never vote for him-I feel that Romney can help McCain run a much smoother cmapaign- and can really contrast him in excitement and speaking- which can help with swing voters perhaps.

Anonymous said...

LMAO, OBAMABOTS ARE ABOUT TO START COMPLAINING ABOUT Q'S POLLS JUST LIKE THEY WHINED ABOUT RASMUSSEN NUMBERS IN OH ... BUNCH OF WHINERS, OBAMA IS GOING TO LOSE. NATE PLEASE UPDATE TO SHOW THE UPSURGE IN MCCAIN'S NUMBERS!

Adam said...

CO is only two percent Mormon - but those Mormons will work the phones and knock on doors with unprecedented energy if McCain chooses Romney as his running mate.

If the Republicans can match Barry's groundgame they'll win in Colorado. But I don't see how they can do it without Romney.

Anonymous said...

Only up by 2 in MN? It's not possible.

Every other poll has obama with big lead.

Quinnipiac has changed is crosstabs i think.

Adam said...

And by the way this comes from someone that didn't support Romney in the primaries. The guy is a serial flip-flopper. Lucky for him, so is Obama.

Anonymous said...

---"LMAO, OBAMABOTS ARE ABOUT TO START COMPLAINING ABOUT Q'S POLLS JUST LIKE THEY WHINED ABOUT RASMUSSEN NUMBERS IN OH ... BUNCH OF WHINERS, OBAMA IS GOING TO LOSE. NATE PLEASE UPDATE TO SHOW THE UPSURGE IN MCCAIN'S NUMBERS!"

This lack of brilliance expains why you are a RepubliCon and got towo time Bush wacked!

Only an idiot would not think there is something strange for two polls taken days apart in OH to have a 18point swing or a poll taken days apart in MN to have 11 point difference. They are using obvious completely different samplings on party affiliations. Obvious to mos,t but not to you.

Have you been on the short buys all your life?

jeremy said...

Sorry but those Mormons are on the far Western edge of the state which is mostly all Republican and relatively sparsely populated. They won't have any effect on the vote here. These Western swing states + Utah have vastly different demographics and comparing them electorally is an exercise in futility.

Anonymous said...

Ras poll in NH has Obama +4 (down from +11 last month).

Favorability - McCain at 63 (up 4), Obama at 57 (down 4).

Trend again favors McCain.

Anonymous said...

Some new Quinnipiac polls were released; no word on effect of Barr/Nader, though.

Adam said...

jeremy,

If that's directed at me I'm not comparing them electorally. The important thing is that the Mormons will be more enthused to organize for the Republicans with one of their own on the ticket. They'll travel the state. From what I understand those Mormons are very organized. Organization builds turnout. The Republicans won CO in this way. They have a good shot of doing it again if they can repeat what they did four years ago.

Hey Anonymi Just Pick A Name! said...

Ras poll in NH has Obama +4 (down from +11 last month).

Well, actually, to be consistent, the +11 from last month (50-39) is without leaners, and this month's number without leaners is +6 (47-41). So -5 from last month, which is well in line with other recent NH polls.

Anonymous said...

VERY good day for McCain today:

AHEAD in Colorado
CLOSE in Minnesota
CLOSE in Michigan
CLOSE in New Hampshire
Way back in Wisconsin (but still a small gin from last month)

AND in each and every state poll today, he has made GAINS from the same poll conducted last month!

Redshift said...

CO is only two percent Mormon - but those Mormons will work the phones and knock on doors with unprecedented energy if McCain chooses Romney as his running mate.

That's true to a certain extent, but it's still only two percent, and even with an energized group, only a small portion are able to devote much time to campaign work. It will have an effect (as will supporters coming over from Utah), but I think it's unlikely it'll be a large effect.

On the other hand, if CO is very, very close, it could be significant, and McCain needs all the chances he can get. Then it's a matter of whether Romney would hurt him in other states.

ajb said...

On Mormons in Colorado -- aren't there also a large number of Evangelical Christians, who are already not that enthusiastic about McCain, and who won't be more enthusiastic about him with Romney n the ticket?

Adam said...

ajb,

I thought of that. You're right about the Evangelicals. But they're already not too keen on McCain and won't volunteer to work for his campaign the way they did for Dubya. They WILL vote for McCain over Obama though - regardless of Veep, and even if they hold their noses while they do it. So the Republicans need some group of people to pick up the slack since the evangelicals are pouting like five-year old children. The Mormons will do it if they havea good enough reason to do so. Romney gives them that reason. Plus, Mormons are, as a rule, more wealthy than a lot of the evangelicals. SO even though they are fewer in number, they have more of a means to pitch in.

Anonymous said...

Please explain:

From Colorado poll internals
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/interactives/campaign08/battleground-polls/battlegrounds_co_072408.html)

Tot Rep Dem Ind

Obama 44% 7% 86% 47%

McCain 46 87 7 39

How does Obama getting 7 R, 86 D and 47 I to McCain 87 R, 7 D and 39 I
(about same by party and 8% more Independents for Obama) translate into 2% more for Mccain?

Really confused...

Adam said...

Anon,

Republicans had a 9-point participation edge in 2004. Granted it's probably going to be less this year, but even if it's only a few points that result is possible.

Remember, Kerry won Indies by 7 points in 2004 and the state went for Bush by 5 points.

ajb said...

btw...
I think perhaps the most telling number from the NBC/WSJ poll (and it relates to the title of this thread) is how they feel about their candidate:

McCain Voters:
Excited 14
Satisfied 42
Lesser of Two Evils 43

Obama Voters:
Excited 44
Satisfied 33
Lesser of Two Evils 22

This seems to match the Rasmussen favorability numbers for most states, which show a huge bulge for McCain in the "Somewhat Favorable" category, e.g. in today's NH poll where he's 24% Very Favorable, 39% Somewhat Favorable, 19% Somewhat Unfavorable, 16% Very Unfavorable.
Obama tends to the two extremes -- higher Very Favorable and higher Very Unfavorable.
One of the biggest risks for McCain is that a significant chunk of this grudging support could disappear. There's a sizeable core of voters in many states who will never vote for Obama, but those who do like him, like him a great deal, and are likely to stay with him.

ajb said...

Adam -- good point on Evangelicals in Colorado. But I think McCain/Romney would hurt Evangelical turnout (and shift a few votes towards Obama), and given their larger numbers that might counteract any boost from within the Mormon community.

MVRed.com said...

New Hampshire Rasmussen Poll:
Obama: 49%
McCain: 45%

Good positioning for McCain, he has gained 7 points since the past NH poll!

Becky Sharp said...

Tuesday: good day for McCain
Wednesday: good day for Obama
Thursday: good day for McCain

Its clearly not worth getting too happy or too sad over one day's polling. At this stage in the race its all about trends, not individual polls - and trends are what Nate's here for.

P.S. to those who write in caps - I skip your posts - as do many others I'm sure

judas_priest said...

People seem to be getting excited over nothing much. You're too busy interpreting information which is 90% noise. This is summer.

Most ordinary people (if you're reading this site you're not ordinary) aren't paying a whole lot of attention to politics. Not only is there sampling error, but Poller Introduced Error (PIE) is higher now since we haven't got close enough to the elections for many voter's ideas to become solid and survey respondents are much more easily affected by how the survey is done.

On top of that people without a solid fix on what they are doing are much more easily swayed temporarily by whatever is in the news - which effect will fade away as new events capture peoples short term attention.

In order to have a decent idea what polls are sayaing at this time you need a longer time base (a couple of weeks) and the aggregation of polls from many pollsters - with PIE having a realtively large effect now any individual supplier is far more subject to distortion. No one poll is going to mean very much.

What can we determine by reviewing the last several weeks of polling?

1. Obama has held a relatively steady, if not especially big, lead.

2. Obama is in the lead in several states which are reachable by McCain,like Ohio, CO and MI.

3. McCain is in the lead in several states which are reachable by Obama, like IN & FL.

4. VA and NV are truly toss-ups.

I should say that I won't pay attention to the polls until political season really begins, which is in September, but I'm such a political junkie I will anyway. But I won't take seriously any change until then which isn't sustained for a couple of weeks.

On state polls, they have a typical sampling MOE of 4-5%. I we assume a 2% error caused by respondents dealing only what what has happened in the couple of days immeidately prior to the polls, and 4% for PIE at this stage, this would yield a total MOE of about 6.5% (assuming the errors are independent of each other).

Also remember that even on these terms, 1 poll in 20 will have an sample that is an outlier.

Actually, I think that the 4% for PIE is too small. It's summer and people are harder to reach since they're at home less. This would be truer for the tracking polls, which have a shorter time base. I believe that Gallup will not call back even the next day, which is a significant source of potential error. (I believe that Rasmussen does call back the next day, but that the respondent wouldthen become part of that second day's sample.)

Anonymous said...

I cannot believe that some Left of Center PUMA types haven't learned a thing from 2000.

Instead of pushing the DEMS left, as many thought the Nader candidacy would, circumstances conspired to push them right. I know that the Nader supporters I knew then won't do it again. Even if they don't think they were wrong in 2000, they do see that in close elections it makes a difference and we got even worse with W in the WH than Gore.

Anyway, those are interesting stats, thanks for sharing them.

Oh, and that ad on the bottom about Obama and SS? Totally misleading and WRONG. SS is a welfare plan? How insulting to the millions of Americans that have worked and put money into it...

ajb said...

Oh, and to return to a theme I've touched on before:
Political Wire says that big majorities in CO/MI/MN/WI all support offshore drilling in the Q-Pac polls.
http://politicalwire.com/archives/2008/07/24/quinnipiac_mccain_gains_in_key_battleground_states.html

But the Q-Pac page itself shows that, in three of these states, voters think Obama has the better energy policy, while in CO they're tied 33-33.
http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1284.xml?ReleaseID=1195&What=&strArea=;&strTime=0

Dan in MINN said...

Anon at 10:32 —

The Twin Cities suburbs all went Bush in 2004 and Kerry still won.

Obama will run up his numbers in Hennepin and Ramsey Counties and will roll in college towns like Mankato, St. Cloud, Winona and Duluth.

There is no way McCain wins in Minnesota... absolutely none.

michael said...

The thread was not on today's polls but on third party effect...passing over those who type all in caps or ask money for Obama, on the main point (and pollster.com bears this out) Obama leads by an average of 10 points when Nader/Barr are in the mix. Yesterday's NBC/WSJ poll is just the latest: Obama-McCain: 47-41, Obama-McVain-Nader-Barr 48-33-5-2...Anyone who voted for Hillary Clinton for a reason other than hating Obama (i.e. actually agreed with her positions, of which Obama shares about 98%) will either end up voting for Obama. It looks like a significant portion of those who voted for Clinton as an anti-Obama vote, will end up for Nader (BTW, I think PUMA will soon be a new condition in the DSM-IV).

On another national poll note, how do you all see the massive Pew Poll of Latinos (over 2000) with Obama leading 66-23? That cannot be good news for McCain in states such as Col, NM, Nev, Fla and even Texas...

Anonymous said...

i KEEP SAYING, NONE OF THESE POLLS MEAN ANYTHING EXCEPT AS A BASE UNTIL AFTER THE CONVENTIONS AND A DEBATE OR TWO.

Anonymous said...

---"Anon,

Republicans had a 9-point participation edge in 2004. Granted it's probably going to be less this year, but even if it's only a few points that result is possible.

Remember, Kerry won Indies by 7 points in 2004 and the state went for Bush by 5 points"

The July based CO voter rolls show that from 2004 to July 2008 that the repub advanatge in registration has dropped from 177K to 117K...that's a 60K drop and the number of Independents is equal to Repubb at 35% and Dems 31%. Obama's 8% lead in independents is being overlooked as there numbers have signifcantly risen since 2004 in CO. This is an error that could explain the other posters since of being baffled how McCain has a 2pt lead with each getting the same % of their party and equal cross over and Obama up 8 in independents. Actually each pullinf 7% of crossover helps Obama since their are more Repub and he has 8pt lead in independents. Q's lead for McCain seems to be an error in methodology.

Adam said...

michael,

Smart liberals wouldn't use mid-summer polling of third-party candidates as comfort to convince themselves of Barry's inevitable success.

Nader + Barr will be less than 7 percent in November. Probably much less.

Adam said...

michael,

66-23 leaves lots of undecideds. Undecideds are hardly guaranteed to break for Obama.

Also, Texas Hispanics aren't going to vote for Obama by 40 points. Neither will Cubans in FL - which are a big chunk of the lationo population.

Cugel said...

I know all the right-wing trolls will howl, but I live in Colorado and this poll is pretty good news for OBAMA, not McCain! The good news is that he's getting 86% of Democrats, not 76%, and he's leading among Independents by 8%.

Registered voters in Colorado are: 35% Republican, 31% Democrat, and 34% Independent. Democrats have also out-registered Republicans since 2006.

The Quinnipiac poll has too heavy a Republican sample by 4%, which makes all the difference. Right-wing trolls can complain all they want to, but typing with the cap-locks key on won't make them any more correct.

Rasmussen polled Colorado a week ago and found Obama +3. The previous poll here was PPP on 7/10 with Obama +4. With a correct voter ID mix, this poll would fall right in with those others and show about a McCain +1 or essentially tied.

Did McCain surge by about 3% over the past week? Probably not. Differences in the dreaded "likely voter screens" plus the fact that it's July and lots of people are out of town on vacations, and not thinking at all about the election probably accounts for all of it.

Colorado has a -4% Republican edge, not 8% as this poll has it.

McCain gets 87% of Republicans and Obama 86% of Democrats, so given the partisan ID of the state, if turnout is equal, then McCain's natural advantage would be (35% R x 87% of Reps) - (31% D x 86% of Dems) = 3.8%.

From this you can see that Independents determine most if not all Colorado elections.

Unfortunately for Republicans, they've been leaning heavily Democratic in the last 2 elections, which is why Colorado has a Democratic Governor, 1 New Democratic Senator, and soon to be another, plus 2 more Democratic Congressmen, and both houses of the state legislature are now controlled by Democrats.

For Obama to win given his current level of support among Democrats and McCain's current level of support among Republicans, and assuming equal turnout among Democrats and Republicans, he'd have to win Colorado Independents by at least 3.8% and probably around 4%. If he's up by 8% on election day among Independents he's going to win and it won't be that close.

Best thing you can say for McCain: IF Republicans have a Partisan ID advantage of 8% in November he's likely to win a narrow victory in Colorado DESPITE Independents leaning towards Obama. If I were putting money on the trading market I wouldn't bet on it.

Anonymous humanist said...

Scott, I hope you're reading this. I'll chase you down the threads if you're not. Nate really should set up a fan forum on the site where we could have our own threads.

You're right and I was wrong about the overall effect of combined Obama+McCain excluding leaners. Let's say this number has several causes, some tend to help Obama and some tend to help McCain.

I do believe, very strongly, in my interpretation of the Georgia numbers. You can't get to 95 without pushing leaners, not in Georgia. Plus, we have a motive here for pushing leaners. There's a smoking gun there.

I have one more general point generalizing from the more basic question of including leaners. I post it separately as it might potentially interest people beyond our private Scott-to-Humanist exchange.

Anonymous humanist said...

Nate’s post is brilliant as usual and is closely related to the discussion some of us are having are as to whether Rasmussen should be tracked with or without leaners.

So far, we have discussed this from a very narrow perspective: clearly if we compare with-leaners to without-leaners we get a distortion, so there’s a cleaning up required in Nate’s numbers, though how to go about this is not clear.

But there’s a much deeper point I think.

We were thinking that perhaps Nate ought to start an ad-hoc policy of taking two variables associated with Rasmussen, one with and one without leaners, because we don’t want to lost the new with-leaners info but we also don’t want to use the previous without-leaners comparison. We thought of this as a kind of compromise.

Now, it would clearly be best if Rasmussen could retrospectively publish all his leaners-included past numbers (which I now tend to believe he does hold, close to his chest), so that we could make the direct comparison. But would it be correct, then, simply to ignore the leaners-excluded? Nate shows us now exactly why not, and for an obvious reason –

Leaners-excluded numbers contain some information which leaners-included numbers do not.

And vice versa.

So that we should in principle include both numbers. From all pollsters, when we have them. And the same reasoning holds for any form of the internal breaking within a poll, RV versus LV, even, let’s say, weighted and unweighted.

Because you see: the debate as to whether we should weight or not, screen or not, push or not, is an honest one with good arguments on all sides so that what we should really do is EVERYTHING – weight and unweight, screen and unscreen, push and unpush, and then combine all. The net result would probably be a regression to the mean; always a good thing.

How to go about this? Here is what I think. To be clear: I’m not making a policy proposal for 538 – the change I advocate is not feasible, I think, for 538 during the 2008 campaign. But I propose for discussion a possible advancement of the art of reading polls. (For 538/2012? But then again wouldn’t Obama’s landslide re-election be too boring?)

So: first of all, we should of course ignore the journalistic shortcut of treating a poll as if it provides us with a couple of numbers, Obama X, McCain Y. A poll provides us with a couple of bell-curve functions (derived from X, Y and N=sample size), the one associating a probability to each McCain number, the other associating a probability to each Obama number.

(Nate of course sees this point and this is one reason why he is so much more intelligent than any other interpreter of polls around. He does archive polls as numbers, not as functions, but this is because he works with bell curves that are symmetrical about their axis so that manipulating a single number is a perfectly good simplification; once he’s weighted all polls for a State, he then uses the number he gets to generate a bell curve).

Now, let’s say we switch to a multi-focal picture of a poll: the poll says Obama X with leaners, Obama X’ without them; McCain Y with leaners, McCain Y’ without them. So now, for the sake of the argument, let’s assume we believe the two methodologies carry equal informational weight. Then what we need to do is to produce an Obama function which is the superposition of two similar bell curves, with X and X’ as axes, and a McCain function which does the same with Y, Y’. If the internal picture is more complicated, we may need to superimpose more than two bell curves for each function.

It is now possible to take the various polls taken in a State, trend (=linear manipulation of the function) and weigh them and then average them as functions, resulting with a final couple of functions which associate probabilities to each Obama and McCain numbers. The bottom line numbers for Obama and for McCain are then best found, I think, from the center of gravity of the areas bounded by the functions; but of course the real predictive tool is the function itself and not its bottom-line-number representation.

Any thoughts on the feasibility/desirability of this approach?

Anonymous said...

POLL THIS

OBAMA BERLIN SPEECH: 'A WORLD THAT STANDS AS ONE'

Adam said...

Cugel,

But if Republican registration dropped because those voters became Independents we would expected Independents to be more GOP-friendly than we saw in 2004.

I'm not sure what the margin of error in the CO Q-Poll was but assuming it was 4 percent, that % error is much higher among Independents, since they only compose roughly 1/3 of the sample-size.

Bottom line is that it's close. Whichever candidate is ahead, isn't ahead by much. And it's all going to come down to turnout.

Adam said...

Cugel,

But if Republican registration dropped because those voters became Independents we would expected Independents to be more GOP-friendly than we saw in 2004.

I'm not sure what the margin of error in the CO Q-Poll was but assuming it was 4 percent, that % error is much higher among Independents, since they only compose roughly 1/3 of the sample-size.

Bottom line is that it's close. Whichever candidate is ahead, isn't ahead by much. And it's all going to come down to turnout.

Afghanistan said...

Hello everyone,
As you know I am not a very political person. I just wanted to pass along that Senator Obama came to Bagram Afghanistan for about an hour on his visit to 'The War Zone'. I wanted to share with you what happened.
He got off the plane and got into a bullet proof vehicle, got to the area to meet with the Major General (2 Star) who is the commander here at Bagram.

As the Soldiers were lined up to shake his hand, he blew them off and didn't say a word as he went into the conference room to meet the General. As he finished, the vehicles took him to the ClamShell (pretty much a big top tent that military personnel can play basketball or work out in with weights) so he could take his publicity pictures playing basketball. He again shunned the opportunity to talk to Soldiers to thank them for their service.

So really he was just here to make a showing for the American's back home that he is their candidate for President. I think that if you are going to make an effort to come all the way over here you would thank those that are providing the freedom that they are providing for you.

I swear we got more thanks from the NBA Basketball Players or the Dallas Cowboy Cheer leaders than from one of the Senators, who wants to be the President of the United States . I just don't understand how anyone would want him to be our Commander-and-Chief. It was almost that he was scared to be around those that provide the freedom for him and our great country.
If this is blunt and to the point... I am sorry but I wanted you all to know
what kind of caliber of person he really is. What you see in the news is all fake.

In service,
CPT Jeffrey S. Porter
Battle Captain
TF Wasatch
American Soldier

Cugel said...

"The July based CO voter rolls show that from 2004 to July 2008 that the repub advanatge in registration has dropped from 177K to 117K...that's a 60K drop and the number of Independents is equal to Repubb at 35% and Dems 31%. Obama's 8% lead in independents is being overlooked as there numbers have signifcantly risen since 2004 in CO. This is an error that could explain the other posters since of being baffled how McCain has a 2pt lead with each getting the same % of their party and equal cross over and Obama up 8 in independents. Actually each pullinf 7% of crossover helps Obama since their are more Repub and he has 8pt lead in independents. Q's lead for McCain seems to be an error in methodology."

DAMN! While I was typing my post, you slipped in and said it better!

I didn't have the exact percentage increase in Indpendents since 2004.

The Partisan ID advantage to Republicans in 2004 was due to Kerry being out-organized by Bush in GOTV and then abandoning the state in September to concentrate on Ohio.

Colorado Democrats have come a long way since 2004 and we've elected a Governor, 1 Senator (soon to be 2), 2 new Congressmen, and taken control of the State legislature: all despite the 4% Republican ID advantage over Democrats.

Independents have made all the difference.

Republican turnout won't top Democratic much if at all this year, especially since new registrations are continuing and Democrats are piling up their advantages there. Plus, Obama is blanketing the state and organizers are already calling me on the phone.

I assume McCain is doing the same thing, but I haven't seen any evidence of it (I live in Denver, so he's probably concentrating his efforts in Colorado Springs where his natural base is).

I don't know, but it's easy to imagine that these GOTV efforts will cancel each other out and that turnout will be essentially even, means the election comes down to whether McCain can limit Obama's edge among Independents to around 5% or less. If he can, he'll win.

If it stays around 8% Obama will win.

Matthew H said...

Don't forget...

Republicans are spending serious money in Minnesota right now, both directly for the convention and indirectly to make sure that the news coming out of there is good.

Meanwhile, I don't think Obama has spent much here.

It doesn't surprise me at all that McCain is close in Minnesota.

judas_priest said...

As an additional fillip to my post above (@11:47), I excerpted the following from Mark Blumenthal’s column in NationalJournal.com. Blumenthal is ”The Mystery Pollster” on Pollster.com, a site which all who want to discuss polls intelligently should be familiar with. (I trust all of you are.)
‘All of this points to something important: Most registered voters -- and especially those who are uncertain about their choice -- recognize the names of the presidential candidates but know very little else about them, even at this stage in the campaign. Such a pattern is not unusual and tends to support the pattern of voter "ambivalence" my colleague Ronald Brownstein observed recently in a series of interviews with voters in Colorado. "The political commentariat," he wrote, "may be obsessively grading each thrust and parry in the nonstop jousting between the Obama and McCain campaigns, but virtually none of that dueling is reaching the voters I met."’

Link: http://www.nationaljournal.com/njonline/mp_20080724_5402.php

Anonymous said...

Re: Afghanistan @ 12:19

Man, you are shameless to cut & paste that faux 'letter' attempting to wound Obama, especially on this site where people are not low-info types.

Most of us have already seen this exact same spam - and know it is nothing but a character assasination attempt.

This site is about electoral polling - NOT partisan politics. Please take your smelly spam & go back to whatever hole you crawled out of.

Juris said...

In the spirit of some of the later posts, and returning to the theme of this article (though I agree with some of the detailed, reasoned comments offered here -- again overlooking all ALL-CAPS posts), the most interesting finding reported today is exactly what Nate wrote about.

Third party candidates are more likely to hurt McCain than Obama. And this omission of third party candidates from the most polls is keeping us from some very useful information -- even if this election follows past ones of third party candidate numbers tending to fade as election day approaches.

What the pollsters should be doing in any case, however, is asking their survey question two ways -- one with just McCain and Obama, and one with third party candidates. (However, there could be some "order effects" if respondents were first asked the question with third party candidates and then the two-party version.)

ajb said...

Adam,
On that Pew Hispanic poll...
Yes, 66-23 leaves room for undecideds. But even if the whole 11% votes for McCain, he'd still be behind Bush in 2000, never mind Bush in 2004.
And, although the Pew release and pdf don't contain this statistic, the Houston Chronicle reports that the poll shows Obama leading among Cuban-Americans 53-29, which would be huge, if true. Even if that moved to 53-47 in the end, that would still be a big bump, and would make FL very competitive.
The same Chronicle article also shows Obama winning among Mexican-Americans 70-21. They don't break down how those in TX feel, unfortunately.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5905184.html

JustAGuy said...

Any idea how, in CO, Obama can be winning Dems 86 to 7 AND independents 47 to 39, yet be losing the race by two points?

I'm not going to whine about cross tabs because I don't like the results; it's not a good poll for Obama. Still, knowing the overall party ID trend in Colorado over the last few years, the poll is not striking fear in my heart. Plus there's another reason I'm less inclined to be bothered by relatively close CO polling: barring some kind of disaster, I think it's safe to assume that the statewide bounce for Obama will be markedly sharper here than nationally.

Not to imply that it's a state Obama can take for granted; further complicating matters is that, because of demographic factors, it's one of the more susceptible states to sway towards McCain based on VP selection. A Romney tap could mobilize the growing Mormon population, while the evangelical base (James Dobson's group is centered here) may be motivated by a Mike Huckabee or other strong Christian social conservative.

Cugel said...

"Cugel,

But if Republican registration dropped because those voters became Independents we would expected Independents to be more GOP-friendly than we saw in 2004."


Republican registration did NOT drop much in Colorado. They were at 35% and they're STILL at 35% which means overall, they've treaded water.

Democratic registration is increased, but Democrats are still around 31%. Perhaps the new registration figures might raise that to 32%, but that's at MOST.

It's mostly that more Coloradoans are now Independents, and they are NOT repentant former Republicans, they are PURE INDEPENDENT. They've leaned towards Democrats in recent elections because Republicans have swung too far right. The evangelical crusaders from Colo. Springs haven't help Republicans image in this state either.

The scene was pretty ugly in 2004 with endless rallies of Bush-robots congregating at Red Rocks all singing "flip-flop, flip-flop" (about Kerry) and swaying back in forth in unison like some mutant religious revival, except instead of loving Jesus, they were all hating Kerry.

Republican campaigns have echoed Bush's entirely negative strategy here which REALLY turns off Independent voters. (Why Pete Coors isn't Governor).

The proof is in the pudding. Since 2004 they've swung Democratic and we've won a bunch of local elections and now dominate state politics here.

Bush didn't care that Independents were turned off by his excessive partisanship and endless attack ads, because he had the same GOTV effort that he used to rally evangelicals and other right-wingers every else. Bush GOTV efforts, plus Kerry abandoning the state led to a 9% Republican voter ID advantage, so even though Kerry won independents, Bush won Colorado.

That isn't happening this year.

Paul Bradford said...

I can't participate in a discussion about third parties without pointing out that most of the problems we have for this issue can be easily fixed.

Since this is a 'site for political junkies, I expect that a lot of you have heard about arrangement such as :



preferential voting
run off elections
nonpartisan preliminary elections
instant run offs



If you're not familiar with these schemes I can direct you to Fair Vote which has plenty of interesting information.

The main point is that we can easily set things up so that 3rd party candidates have a chance to compete for voters without putting their candidacies in a position to thwart the will of the people as they did in FL in '00 (speaking of which, Nader wasn't the only candidate who might have denied the election to Gore. There were actually eight candidates on the Florida ballot who attracted more than 537 votes -- votes that might have gone to Gore and might have changed the outcome of the election.)

An improved voting system means that voters will no longer have to choose between the option of expressing a preference for a candidate who didn't get a Rep or Dem nomination and getting to choose 'the lesser of two evils' between the major party candidates.

Electoral reform means more choice for voters, a better chance for 3rd parties, and freedom from anti-democratic mischief.

Don't be satisfied with leaving things as they are. Talk up the idea of electoral reform. It's simple, it's intelligent and it's democratic.

Jack-be-nimble said...

Hope that speechifying in the Motherland is good!

Gallup daily tracker down to Obama +2

Charles Douglas said...

Attention Demopublican and Republocrat haters:

I have never voted for a presidential candidate from either of your corrupted and corporate-controlled parties.

I will never vote for a presidential candidate from either of your corrupted and corporate-controlled parties.

Get used to it. I was never yours to count on, and I never will be. Your insults against the concept of democracy (you know, freedom of choice) only makes me resist you harder.

Win1withme said...

From Zogby

State: Colorado

Updated: 7/8/2008

Summary:
Obama - 40%
McCain - 38%
Barr - 8%
Nader - 2%
Someone else - 4%
Undecided - 8%

Todays Q just builds on McCains continued gains in key states

Adam said...

Well even if you're right about the GOP treading water and Democrats increasing their numbers, McCain is not Bush. If he were then Obama would be ahead by double digits. Polling crosstabs will always have huge margins of error for individual parties or Independents. So that the Q-Poll or any other poll shows Obama ahead by 8 among Independents is not all that helpful for our purposes. It could easily be 15, but it could just as easily be an even split. McCain has a better track record with Independents than Bush anyway. Obama *should* be doing better with Independents than Kerry considering the GOP woes but he is only doing about as well if we take these numbers as gospel.

If the GOP maintains a three-point registration edge and can mobilize its base there is no reason to believe that McCain can't come out on top.

Jonker said...

JustAGuy - Why does Obama lead with Dems and Independants, but still lose the poll?

There are more registered Republicans in Colorado, and the poll sample includes even more Republicans that the registered percentage.

I living in Colorado outside of Denver and I generally find myself agreeing with Cugel on the local specifics of Colorado. The Mormons are a relatively minor group in Colorado so don't pin your hopes on them. The Latino vote is significant. The Republicans have supported some deeply conservative candidates, which may distrust McCain. I firmly believe this is a swing state which is close. I am not surprised by a poll putting McCain 2% up, and I would not be surprised if Obama won by 2%.

Anonymous said...

requote:
http://209.85.215.104/search?q=cache:dq9LUI86YvsJ:newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Uk/uk.philosophy.humanism/2008-04/msg00053.html+green+M%26Ms+and+the+monty+hall+problem&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us&client=firefox-a

Anonymous said...

Is everyone just ignoring the Rasmussen poll in Minnesota that has Obama by 13?

Obama doesn't have a problem in Minnesota:

a) Ignore the poll as an outlier and Obama is over 10%

b) Average them together and Obama is around 8.

stfu.

Becky Sharp said...

New fox poll suggests reverse Nader effect in full force

With third parties
Obama 40 McCain 37
Without
Obama 41 McCain 40

Looking at the xtabs - seems to be an anyone but Obama attitude amongst a small percentage of democrats. Sad actually

http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/FoxPoll.pdf

Win1withme said...

More proof the 3rd party cans are having no impact

"The significant news coverage Barack Obama is receiving on his foreign trip has not translated into a bounce in his numbers, a just-released Opinion Dynamics Corp shows. Obama now holds the slimmest possible edge over John McCain, leading by just 41 percent - 40 percent in a head-to-head contest. In fact, Obama’s support is down slightly from his 45 percent - 41 percent advantage last month."

"McCain’s support declines a little when third party candidates are included, even though Libertarian Bob Barr receives less than 1 percent and independent Ralph Nader receives only 2 percent, Obama’s advantage goes to 3 percentage points (40 percent to 37 percent). Another 17 percent are undecided."

Anonymous said...



PUMA NEWS ALERT

OBAMA WILL LOOSE THIS THING

MCCAIN IS THE NEXT PRESIDENT

MCCAIN IS RISING !!

YES WE WILL

PUMA POWER !!

Cugel said...

Adam - "McCain is not Bush" is a Republican talking point! REPUBLICANS believe that despite McCain's 96% voting record of support for Bush and his taking the same position as Bush on almost all major issues.

The major difference is that Republicans and Republican-leaning Independents are in denial. They don't want to admit they were wrong in 2000, wrong in 2004 and are wrong again now. So, they're looking for a new flag-waver who will support all the old failed Bush policies . . . but ISN'T Bush. Voila! McCain.

The majority of Americans believe that McCain IS Bush, which is why Obama is winning.

As for Colorado, McCain CAN win Colorado, but he's not going to have an 8% Partisan ID advantage like Bush had in 2004, in fact he's not likely to have ANY turnout advantage, so he'd better start converting some Independents.

Bush won Colorado by 4.8%, slightly more than the Republican registration advantage, which means his GOTV accounted for his entire win, despite Kerry winning by 7% among Independents.

That won't happen this time.

Independents are going to decide the election in Colorado this year. And if they continue to back Obama by 8% McCain has no chance.

Anonymous said...

A couple of thoughts on the FOX poll.

Why are they saying that Independents favor McCain? They favor Obama by a hair and many seem to be undecided.

Also, interesting that Obama/Clinton vs. McCain/Romney gives Obama quite a bigger lead.

I am personally leaning towards Obama selecting Hillary.

MVRed.com said...

FOX POLL - [3 Pt Gain for McCain]

* Barack Obama 41%
* John McCain 40%

Let’s say the Democratic ticket is Barack Obama for president and Hillary Clinton on the ticket with him as vice president and the Republican ticket is John McCain for president and Mitt Romney on the ticket with him as vice president. If you were voting today, how would you vote?

* Obama/Clinton 48% (48%)
* McCain/Romney 39% (41%)

McCain leads on Iraq, Judges, Terrorism; Obama leads on Economy and Health Care.

Anonymous said...

The Gallup poll almost always tightens at the end of the week, then Obama gains a bigger lead over the weekend.

Not really sure what any of this means, but actually today's results shouldn't be that surprising.

As for bounces, I remember some McCain fans screaming on June 10 about where is Obama's bounce. The bounce came a week later. So...he got a bounce...and it was delayed. I wonder if we'll see a delayed bounce on the trip...

Anonymous said...

Somehow, I doubt that an "American Soldier" would typo CIC into CAC.

SG said...

For those who say that Obama can't possibly be underperforming John Kerry in the Mid-West or West...

Don't forget that John Kerry was up against a braindead hick.

Obama is up against a far less objectionable moderate who will be able to pick up many of those centrist upper-midwest and mountain votes that the hick was unable to secure in 2004.

SG said...

Also, Obama could get a lot of the Hillary voters WITHOUT all the Hillary-headaches by choosing Evan Bayh as his VP.

Obama/Bayh - two young, cleancut, articulate men from neighboring states.

Gee...what WINNING political team does THAT remind you of?

Anonymous said...

Pew poll of Hispanic voters:

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2008/images/07/23/nsl.2008.hispanics.in.the.2008.election_embargoed.pdf

EMBARGOED FOR 10 am EST July 24, 2008

Obama 66, McCain 23

In New Mexico Hispanics make up 37% of state's eligible electorate, in Florida 14%, in Nevada 12%, and in Colorado 12%.

SarahLawrenceScott said...

Anonymous humanist:

I finally gave in and sent Rasmussen $20 to be a "premium" member. Otherwise I keep wondering if the answers are hiding there somewhere.

They aren't.

But here are the clues.

For Georgia early June, the topline just says "2008 Presidential General Election Match-Ups" and the choices are McCain (51%), Obama (41%), Other (6%), and Not sure (2%).

For Georgia late June, the topline says "If the Presidential Election were held today, would you vote for Republican John McCain, Democrat Barack Obama or Libertarian Bob Barr?" The choices are McCain (53%), Obama (43%), Barr (1%), and Not sure (3%). Notice the absence of "other"--Nader voters have to go somewhere.

Georgia mid-July--now the topline says "If the Presidential Election were held today, would you vote for Republican John McCain or Democrat Barack Obama?" Now choices are given with and without leaners: McCain (48/53), Obama (39/42), Barr (5/1), Not sure (7/4).

So you're right--the late June poll is damn suspicious--some kind of push to get leaners to jump must have been included. My guess, since the Barr number goes way down when leaners are allowed, is that the robot says something like "If you had to decide, which way are you leaning? Remember, it's 1 for McCain and 2 for Obama." That would cause some people who had chosen 3 (Barr) to think they couldn't do it any more, while a few would still stubbornly push 3.

I compared to the wording in other states. July New Hampshire asks "If the Presidential Election were held today, would you vote for Republican John McCain or Democrat Barack Obama?" and includes the choice "Other," but not Barr explicitly.

North Carolina also has Other but not Barr. Same with Alaska. And again, by the way, including leaners suppresses third party votes, but doesn't eliminate them: "Other" is 7% in Alaska without leaners, and 2% with.

So where's that leave us?

I think the late June Georgia poll was an experiment. After all, why poll Georgia twice in one month? To see the effect of Barr explicitly. And in so doing, Ramussen realized he could get the "other" category to go down by repeating the question with only the first two choices given. That became part of his standard methodology a few weeks later, and was reported as "with leaners."

So once again, the numbers without leaners are appropriate to compare with the earlier state polls--except that one from Georgia in late June, which was a preview of what the "with leaners" numbers would look like.

Much of this is speculation on my part, of course. I am not suggesting Nate should single out that last Georgia poll--if Rasmussen is not being open with what he did there, so be it; it's just one little data point which will quickly be lost in the overall noise. But for more recent polls, which are identified as having leaner and no-leaner numbers, it's the no-leaner numbers which should be treated as being in the same series as the old polls. That's not really hermeneutics; it's just taking what Rasmussen says at face value and seeing that it's also consistent with the trends in the poll numbers.

Whew! I never should have started visiting this blog... :D

--Scott

Laura in WA said...

I also wonder how McCain's recent factual mistakes will affect the polls, once they become more widely known. It was bad enough when he got the timing of the Sunni Awakening wrong (ironically, as he was accusing Obama of having HIS facts wrong!)...but his statement yesterday trying to correct his mistake, when he started talking about the surge having actually begun before Bush ever announced it (and before the extra troops were ever sent), and how all counterinsurgency efforts (including those before the surge was announced) were really part of the "surge" -- that was just disturbing. Either he was just saying anything he could think of to avoid admitting to having made a mistake, and was just hoping no one would challenge him on the facts of his new statement, or he really is very confused about basic facts with regard to Iraq.

I remember when Maliki endorsed Obama's timetable, Nate speculated that it might help Obama indirectly by putting McCain on the defensive. It's now looking like that was a huge understatement...

Anonymous said...

Wow in regards to the Fox poll. 23%are either undecided or voting for someone else! Isn't that just a bit high? But with Hillary on the ticket 9% are now willing to vote for Obama.

This presents unique challenges and opportunities for Obama camp. You know that you need somebody that is experienced and more known, but the fact that you automatically get 9 points with Hillary on the ticket is worrisome. Is it that people want to vote for Obama, but are just uncomfortable pulling the lever for whatever reason? Experience, race come to mind. Or is it all Hillary support, and they are just pissed at Obama?

If it is the latter they will come around because they are more pissed at Bush than Obama. But if it's because they are just not comfortable that is a much bigger challenge to address.

But while Obama knows what he needs to do to win and what his downfalls are, it seems to me that McCain is just stuck in lower 40s and Romney per Fox poll doesn't do anything for him.

Juris said...

SLC: Excellent detective work on Rasmussen. Thank you.

Juris said...

SLS -- sorry that was directed at YOU. Thanks again for all your detective work on Rasmussen both today more generally.

sdf said...

If the Pew Hispanic poll is accurate and Cuban-Americans are really tilting 53-29 for Obama, that is indeed very significant news and suggests why Florida may be much more winnable for Obama than conventional wisdom had anticipated.

Incoming Message from Dr. Light said...

Everyone who frequents this place has probably already seen this, but new Research 2000 poll of MS. Musgrave is within 1 of Wicker, and Obama is within 9 of McCain, though McCain is still above 50%. MS isn't going to Obama unless there's a landslide or Romney backfires horribly, of course.

sdf said...

New MS poll, Research 2000 for Daily Kos.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/7/24/133625/873/1018/556308

7/21-23. Likely voters. MoE 4% (5/22 results)

Senate:

Wicker (R) 45 (46)
Musgrove (D) 44 (42)

Presidential:

McCain (R) 51 (54)
Obama (D) 42 (39)

John Peterson said...

Here in New Mexico, there are plenty of libertarians who will vote for Bob Barr and not John McCain. Such is their prerogative. These people are not to be forced into a political calculation, their interests assimilated into a vague party.

Similarly, there are super-environmentalists here who might even go so far as to vote Green instead of Democrat. I doubt that number is even close to the number of Barr-voting libertarians, though. Obama-love is strong among the hippies.

"Throwing your vote away." What a strange concept. People can vote for whomever they want.

Anonymous said...

Faux News has Obama +1.

That might as well be the entire election right there. Even the most biased organization in the universe has Obama +1.

Just look at their polling questions! rofl!

Many people believe Obama is a secret Muslim terrorist. Do you believe Obama is secretly a Muslim terrorist? For yes, press 1, for no press *BEEEEEEEP*

Tulle said...

If Obama can get more than 50% of the Cuban vote then he does indeed have a chance to carry Florida.

Anonymous said...

There is something strange that happens this year when pollsters include the two minor candidate names. McCain's numbers generally go down while Obama's rise slightly. For example, Pollster.Com now has it McCain-Obama 42.8 v. 45.4 in just a two person race but 36.3 v. 47.1 with Barr at 1.3 and Nader 3.7%.

This particular effect that favors Obama has not been explained well by any of the commentary offered so far here.

Juris said...

SDF: From stories I've read there is a huge age gradient in support for Obama among Latinos of every nationality.

The support for Obama among younger persons in general in the country also reflects a much more tolerant (read: less racist) view of the world. This is true among Anglos as well as Hispanics, for that matter.

I agree that the Pew results for Cubans are very impressive.

Anonymous humanist said...

Brilliant, Scott. The Georgia experiment theory is helpful because then:

- we can actually dismiss Georgia June as an exception and assume that all other pre-Julys are unpushed.
- We have good reason to believe there are no pre-July pushed results that Rasmussen didn't publish. (Silly to think that, anyway).

I don't really understand why Rasmussen always pushed national polls but, until July, not state ones. What's the difference between the two as far as the individual interview goes?

I'm with you there on this becoming a bit obssessive - though I do like my new excuse for procrastination!

judas_priest said...

A bit off topic but I found it interesting. (Hey, I wrote it)

Obama v. McCain - Who's telling the Truth?

The site linked below evaluates the accuracy of statements made by the candidates and various political players, such as the national committees. It is put together by Congressional Quarterly and St. Petersburg Times They score statements as True, Mostly True, Half True, Barely True and False. Then they have a special category, which consists of statements so blatantly false that they qualify for the label, “Pants On Fire.” (For those who don’t recognize the source – presumably none o the regulars here – it’s the children’s taunt, “Liar, Liar; Pants on Fire.”)

They list 88 statements made by Obama,. Of those 30 were true, 18 each mostly true and half true, 7 barely true, 15 false and no blatant lies. For McCain the numbers were 84 statements with 21 true, 16 mostly true, 15 half true, 11 barely true, 18 false, with three additional “Pants On Fire.”

Of McCain’s statements, 25% were false or worse. Obama had 17% false, and none of them was a blatant lie. Crerating an measurement index, I scored 10 for each true statement, 8 for mostly true, 5 for half true and 3 for barely true. False got no points and “Pants On Fire” I scored as a -20.

Applying these scores, Obama had a total of 555 points spread out over 88 statements for an average score of 6.3. McCain had 386 points over 84 statements for an average score of 4.6. (Obviously the specific scores depend on the scoring model I used, but I think it is reasonable and any scoring system that maintains the uni-dimensional scoring system in the logical order will have similar results.

This suggests that the “Straight Talk Express” is having some problems staying on track.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2008/jul/18/our-state-union-quiz/

Also, factcheck.org has a similar purpose. There is some evaluation of political statements at snopes.com

John Peterson said...

Juris:
The support for Obama among younger persons in general in the country also reflects a much more tolerant (read: less racist) view of the world.

I'd call you out for being simple and ignorant, but this seems to be Obama's platform as well. People will vote for me because they're not racist. You're not racist, are you? Then I think you know how to vote.

That's pretty horrible.

Juris said...

JP: Let me restate the substantive point and avoid the ad hominem.

It is a fact well supported by all kinds of survey research the younger people in the U.S. are more tolerant of diversity on multiple dimensions.

This by itself doesn't attract them diffentially to Obama. But it means that they are less likely to judge him only or primarily by his race.

Michael said...

Judas, what's the difference between false and blatantly false? Can you please give an example or two? (I realize this is a tangent, but I'm interested.)

Jean Q Publique said...

I see the resident dillweed @ 9:21 AM was honkin' and tootin' on his own flugal horn, and playing the normal sad-sack-winger victim card.

> > "Sorry for the bragging, but I get kicked around so much
> > on this site, that I could not help defending myself."

Although ... The way too obvious problem he refuses to face is that the folks he accuses of kicking him around are kicking him around because of his previous propensity to post infantile Rove/Limbaugh/Hannity talking points. No one has been kicking him around for staying on the topic of a thread.

His MO is a perfect example of an authoritarian enabler without an idea of substance of his own.

Although, so far today in this thread he's down to two posts. One of which was even a comment on polling.

That's a positive step in the correct direction.

I won't hold my breath.

~JQP~ @ Silly as it Seems

judas_priest said...

Michael:

The best way to get a real feel for the distinction would be to go to the site, the link to which I had provided. But I am posting these two examples. The first is the most recent “False” score; the second, the most recent, “Pants On Fire” one. Subjectively, the analogy I came up with is between being wrong on the one hand and being recklessly or maliciously wrong on the other. This derives from the law of defamation, which would have some relationship to this area. When the person about whom a statement is made is a public figure, even though the statement might be false, it is not defamation if the publisher of the statement acted n good faith. When, however, when the published acted with knowledge that the statement was false or else acted with “reckless disregard for the truth or falsity of the statement,” (The Ann Coulter standard, as it were), that does constitute defamation. (If the person allegedly defame is not a public figure or engaged in a matter or public interest, then the level of mental sate of the published is lowered.)

"Who can you thank for rising prices at the pump? O-ba-ma! O-ba-ma!"
John McCain on Monday, July 21st, 2008 in a TV ad

Sure, and blame Obama for bad tomatoes, too

A new television ad by Sen. John McCain's campaign seeks to exploit anger over gas prices by directing it toward his opponent.

"Gas prices: four dollars, five dollars, no end in sight," says the narrator in the advertisement, which the McCain campaign released July 21, 2008. "Because some in Washington are still saying no to drilling in America."

Oil drilling goes on all the time in America. What Sen. Barack Obama and others oppose is certain new drilling off the coasts. But let's leave that aside.

Some in Washington, the ad continues, say "no to independence from foreign oil." Almost no one opposes the notion of independence from foreign oil. The dispute is over how to get there. But let's leave that aside as well.

The ad culminates with this question: "Who can you thank for rising prices at the pump?" Then we hear a chant familiar to anyone who has watched a fevered Obama rally: "O-ba-ma! O-ba-ma! O-ba-ma!" So the central claim of the ad, and the one we decided to check, is that Obama is to blame for rising gas prices.

In its news release announcing the ad, the McCain campaign cited everything from Obama's criticism of McCain's electric car contest to Obama's reservations about nuclear power. But in our view those things don't sufficiently back up McCain's sweeping contention that the junior senator from Illinois is to blame for rising gas prices.

The main implication of the ad is that the ban on some offshore drilling — a ban that McCain has long opposed, more explicitly lately than in the past — has contributed to rising prices, and since Obama supports it, it is fair to blame him for it.

The last part is highly dubious. Obama has only been in the U.S. Senate since 2005, and the congressional moratorium prohibiting oil and gas leasing on most of the outer continental shelf dates to 1982.

Granted, Congress has renewed it every year since. But there was also a presidential order banning oil exploration off the coasts from 1990, when the first President Bush issued it, until July 14, 2008, when his son lifted it.

So even if the ban on offshore drilling contributed to "rising prices at the pump," it would have done so regardless of how Obama felt about it, at least until the very recent past.

Now, has the ban in fact contributed to rising prices at the pump? Probably so, though it's impossible to say how much.

Currently, drilling is allowed in about 15 percent of federally controlled waters, and those areas are the source of more than one-quarter of the oil produced in the United States, according to Ron Planting, an economist at the American Petroleum Institute. Domestic production accounts for about a quarter of the oil the country consumes, Planting said.

It is not likely that all the other offshore areas currently off limits would be as productive as the Gulf of Mexico, where most of today's offshore drilling takes place, Planting said.

"The only thing we can say is directional," Planting said. "We'd have more supply (if the moratorium hadn't been in place)] and historically more supply has downward pressure on prices."

But that's really a peripheral issue. Regardless of how the moratorium has affected prices over the years, Obama has not been a key force behind it until very recently.

True, he vows to be just that in the future. But how lifting the moratorium would affect future prices is a separate question, (and a tricky one, as we explain here).

What the ad pins on Obama — and others who are "saying no to (new offshore) drilling in America" — are the price increases the country is currently enduring. That saddles the Illinois senator with a lot more influence than he has had. If one were to line up all the leaders in Washington who share some responsibility for the offshore drilling moratorium — the first President Bush, the Republican leadership of Congress, the Democratic leadership of Congress, the Florida delegation — there would be quite a few people ahead of Obama. We find McCain's claim to be False.



Says Obama opposes innovation, the electric car and "clean, safe, nuclear energy."
John McCain on Wednesday, June 25th, 2008 in a Web ad

This 007 claim is out of ammo

A new Web video from Sen. John McCain's campaign portrays Sen. Barack Obama as an opponent of electric cars, nuclear power and energy "innovation."

With music that sounds like the 007 theme, the ad opens with Obama in silhouette and the words "Barack Obama Is Dr. No."

The words change to "No To Drilling Offshore Oil" while Obama is heard saying, "Offshore drilling would not lower gas prices today."

The screen says, "No To A Gas Tax Holiday" while Obama says, "I think John McCain's proposal for a three-month tax holiday is a bad idea."

"No To Innovation. No To The Electric Car" then appears, while Obama says "In this campaign, John McCain is offering the same old gimmicks."

The screen says "No To Clean, Safe, Nuclear Energy" while Obama says "I start off with the premise that nuclear energy is not optimal. I am not a nuclear energy proponent." The ad ends with the message: "Barack Obama Truly Is The Dr. No Of Energy Security."

The ad is part of an effort by the McCain campaign to portray Obama as an obstructionist on energy policy. The ad has a kind of split personality. While the drilling and gas tax claims were accurate, as we explain in this item, the other claims were strikingly wrong.

In this item, we'll examine the claims about electric cars, nuclear power and innovation.

Let's take electric cars first. To back this up, the McCain campaign cites Obama's statement that McCain's $300-million prize for improving car batteries was "a gimmick."

But that doesn't prove Obama said "no" to electric cars. (As our friends at FactCheck.org have pointed out, the McCain campaign ignored an Obama remark in which he was criticizing McCain for not doing more than the battery prize.)

In fact, Obama has said his energy plan will lead to more electric cars. In a speech on June 16, Obama said his proposal to invest $150-billion in energy programs would lead to new jobs "that will be created when plug-in hybrids or electric cars start rolling off the assembly line here in Michigan."

In a speech on May 14, he praised Chrysler for "working to develop a system that integrates electric motors with a fixed-gear transmission."

That doesn't sound like "no" to us.

Against innovation? To back that up, the McCain campaign cites the same line that McCain's battery plan was a gimmick.

But Obama last October proposed a decade-long, $150-billion energy program that would increase research and create new jobs developing "climate-friendly energy supplies that will move us toward energy independence."

An 11-page account of his plan, titled Barack Obama's Plan to Make America a Global Energy Leader, includes incentives for communities to invest in biofuels refineries, more emphasis on clean coal and "safe and secure nuclear energy." That sounds to us like a pretty significant attempt at innovation.

Which brings us to the McCain ad's last point, that Obama said "No To Clean, Safe, Nuclear Energy." To the contrary, it's right there on page 4 of Obama's energy plan: "Safe and Secure Nuclear Energy." It's not a blanket endorsement — Obama says it's important to protect the security of nuclear fuel and waste and determine how to store the waste — but it's still a part of his plan.

So McCain is way, way off with these charges. It's not that he's just missing nuances or exaggerating; he has completely distorted Obama's positions, falsely claiming that Obama opposes research and innovation on the most significant political issue of the summer.

He portrays Obama as a impediment to energy research when the Democratic candidate has been at least as assertive on the issue as McCain has — and has been touting his energy plan since last October. It's so wrong we have to set the meter ablaze: Pants on Fire.

Anonymous said...

The general rule of thumb you cite for excluding minor party candidates is seriously flawed. Third party votes may decrease as you get nearer to an election but there is a huge difference between the 19% for Perot or 14% for Wallace even with a decline over their peak numbers and the *** impact of the red-headed league or birthday party candidates.

Even with a fall-off by half in their current meager support, Nader and Barr could have a significant impact on the EV in November with the vote they gain in individual states. You won't be able to anticipate this result because pollsters are ignoring a potentially significant variable.

Pete Kent said...

Way up above Anonymous said...
POLL THIS

OBAMA BERLIN SPEECH: 'A WORLD THAT STANDS AS ONE'

This is America, son! We don;t give a damn! Margin of error????

Cpt. Porter gave a very interest portrait of how Obama really behaves. It's all for show.

AND Judas Priest: Man, they call be a long-winded bloviator! What a waste of time and typing. Who cares what you think and how you anlaze the issues? Whether you are right or wrong, its only the perception that matters. Americans will not sit through your gas-filled explanations on gas long enough to learn anything.

Please keep the polemics to a minimum!

Jeffrey said...

Has anybody ever done a study on how many people that say they are voting for a third party candidate actually vote?

I believe the theory that third party supporters are a group that dislikes both candidates. Third party numbers always go down on elec day. My theory is that while some of these people hold their nose and vote for the guy they dislike more, a significant number just don't bother to vote at all.

A third party vote is a protest vote. So is staying home and staying home is easier. If this was true, it would mean that the poll numbers with third parties were more accurate, because those people won't be voting for either major candidate.

This is just a theory though. I'm curious if anyone has ever done a study on it.

Jonker said...

Jeffery - I don't know of any studies, but I have often voted for third party candidates. I refuse to vote for someone I don't like, and belive would be good at the job. I also strongly believe in voting.

As a protest vote I think that third party candidates are much better options then staying home. I think that a party really notices when a third party steals the votes they need to get over the top.

1950democrat said...

As for the size of the PUMA vote, card-carrying PUMAs -- so to speak, ie members of the Justsaynodeal coalition groups -- number about 2.5 million. A Jy 4 poll in the real world found 9 million Clinton supporters refusing to vote for Obama, up 2 million from 7 million in early June.

In June it was 4 million staying home and 3 million voting for McCain.

Craig Della Penna crunched numbers and found that looks like a McCain landslide.
Details and cites at turndownobama.com

oldsam said...

McCain's problem is that the bulk of his polling against Obama is an anti-Obama vote instead of a McCain vote. With third party candidates McCain loses more than Obama. It's the reason why the polls are close yet Obama can attract big crowds and McCain can hardly fill a small hall with unenthusiastic crowd. I believe a brick would be get 40% of the vote in a two-way election with Obama.

But I think third party polling might be a bit overstated, Nader and Barr won't get more than 5% of the vote nationally.

judas_priest said...

Pete Kent:

Blow it out your ass. Go back and read the exchange before you make a comment that idotic.

But then, you're not interested in what anybody else has to say, are you? You only need to answer the pounding inside you that compels you to write and write and dump the same garbage again and again.

Jean Q Publique said...

Hey Hey judas_priest...

I'm glad I didn't hold my breath.

These Pete Kent types are the type who forego the use of the art of processing information systematically, which requires taking the time to figure out what is being requested, what the evidence is that's presented, and if contrary views are presented, or even dealt with in the first place. These people have a propensity to take short cuts, and only slightly process the information, if at all. It's all a monologue to them.

This man here has well documented these types of personality traits.

A sensible person's precious time is better spent trying to make heads or tails out of a hot steaming pile of dog feces.

If we further feed the troll it has a tendency to grow additional warts.

~JQP~ @ Silly as it Seems
.

pumaresponders said...

As Rosemary Regello stated,"This elite cast of elected leaders and party officials can't vote until the convention, yet the DNC went ahead and declared Obama the winner based on their input. Even on the official website democrats.org the Chosen One was being heralded as "the Democratic nominee" within hours of the last contest. In criminal justice parlance, this is what's called perpetrating a fraud."

If the media continues to be in the tank for Senator Obama, PUMA will have to make the decision individually who to vote for. Most, like myself, will hold our nose and vote for McCain to have a larger impact of this election.

http://www.thecityedition.com/Pages/Archive/Summer08/UndertheBus.html

MSS said...

Other than BOLD ANONYMOUS above, why doesn't anyone mention Cynthia McKinney? It has long been clear that she (not Nader, who is running nonpartisan) would be the Green nominee, and it was made official about two weeks ago.

Will she draw from weak Obama voters? Or only from potential Nader voters or others who would not vote for Obama, anyway?

I have no idea, and pollsters perhaps are too fixated on Nader and Barr to notice McKinney.

This is a strong field of third-party and independent candidates, based on objective indicators such as actual experience and name recognition.

My guess is that McKinney does little to alter Nate's (and Bowers's) basic conclusion. But it would be good to include all three of these 'minor' candidates in the discussion.

Anonymous said...

MSS,

Pollsters aren't focused on any 3rd party candidate. Few national surveys have included Barr or Nader and even fewer state surveys have. Most ask only the two-candidate question and force responders to "volunteer" another choice or none-of-the-above.

McKinney support might have shown up in the "Other" candidate category in the ABC/Post poll question two weeks ago (3%) and the Fox poll two days ago (1%).

1950democrat said...

Some talk I've seen on PUMA sites such as bitterpoliticz, pumapac.org, hillaryis44.org, etc is about making Obama the McGovern of 2008. They believe he cannot win anyway (once the GOP really goes after him), but want him to lose more states than McGovern, to discredit Obama and the Dean/Brazile faction.

To this end, in close states those PUMAs will vote for McCain; but in states where the outcome is not in doubt, they may vote third party to send a clearer message.

BruinKid said...

FYI, your link to Chris Bowers' post is broken. Here's the correct link.

Carol in Atl said...

Well I live in Georgia, and Obama is really working hard to win this state. He is on every channel every hour of the day. Therefore, as a Proud PUMA, I will be voting for John McCain!

No Hillary means no Dem vote from me. No vote for the 'selected' candidate.

TheDenverGroup!

Anonymous said...

If the McKinney campaign could gain any traction and salience, she might actually help Obama by making him seem less "exotic" or new. Conservatives and the general public would have a real black radical to evaluate who makes BHO seem politically moderate and tame by comparison (2 with the VP).

I suspect that won't happen this year. Neither Barr nor Nader have had any significant visibility in the MSM so far. I doubt that this will change for the Green entrant.

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^^ nice blog!! ^@^

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平平 said...

^^ nice blog!! thanks a lot! ^^

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