Thursday, July 24, 2008

The Reverse Nader Effect

I've commented once before on how Ralph Nader could actually wind up helping Barack Obama, but until Chris Bowers pointed it out, I hadn't realized how much better Obama was running in polls where the third-party candidates are called out by name. According to Chris's data, Obama is polling fully two-and-a-half points better in national polls that have run versions both with and without Nader and Bob Barr -- and the differences seem to be increasing rather than decreasing.

There is a fancier explanation here involving green M&M's and the Monty Hall Problem, but the the basic one is commonsensical. When a voter indicates that their first choice is Ralph Nader, we can reasonably infer that they do not like Barack Obama. These Nader votes are not coming from people on the progressive left who are trying to play it cute; 2000 taught Democrats a lesson that they won't forget until they take back the White House. Instead, they're coming from PUMAs and other left-of-center voters who find Obama unacceptable for one or another reason (if they were right-of-center voters who found Obama unacceptable, they'd just vote for McCain). We should not be surprised that, having determined that these voters consider Obama unacceptable, they'd pledge their votes to McCain if he's the only other choice.

But McCain isn't the only other choice; Nader and Barr will appear on the ballot in most states, and you can always sit out the election, undervote the Presidential race, or write somebody's (Hillary's?) name in. The general rule of thumb is that third party votes decrease as we get nearer to the election; that's why most polling -- and almost all of our state polling -- does not call out Nader and Barr. But if McCain is picking up 2 or 3 points' worth of support from aggrieved Clinton voters who say they prefer Nader when given the choice, I'm not sure how many of those votes he can expect on Election Day.

156 comments

Anonymous said...

Doesn't WSJ have any cross-tabs on the third-party vote?

Nate said...

@8:25. No, there's nothing. Some of the other polls that Bowers mentioned might, but I'm too lazy to look through them.

Anonymous said...

Usually by election day third parties fade but there are enough conservatives unhappy with McCain who may actually vote third party in protest.
Obama may actually be doing better than we believe. Also even people who will vote for McCain are not very excited.
Obama will really have to screw up to lose this election.

Veritas said...

Come election day, the doddering Nader and hypocrite Bob Barr will each get no more than 1% of the vote, but the morons who vote for those sure-loser creeps could matter in a super-close state.

Anonymous said...

One more reason to track Rasmussen without leaners.

Anonymous said...

@ Veritas,

I take offense at being called a moron for voting for Bob Barr rather than John McCain.

Your comment is way off base and you should apologise.

Anonymous said...

That's basically it.

Most of Obama's support is pro-Obama support.

McCain's is a mix of pro-McCain and anti-Obama sentiment.

In most polls, Obamna keeps most of his % when 3rd parties are folded in (usually mid to high 40s), but McCain generally drops from low to mid 40s to mid 30s when 3rd parties are thrown in.

I think I've yet to see a poll that included 3rd party candidates where McCain was as high as 40%.

If you say Obama or McCain...choose! you're pretty much forcing people with residula resentment of Obama, as well as those who think he's unprepared for the job to say McCain.

If you open up the choices, McCain loses a lot of that group, but Obama doesn't. People who are for Obama are really FOR Obama, whether is is one of two choices or one of four.

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Allen said...

As I posted over at OpenLeft:

Third party candidates only matter in swing states. The national numbers don't matter, nor do supporters of thirty party candidates in solidly blue or red states. They are not going to effect the election anyway, so why not support a third party candidate? The only thing that matters is voters who are willing to "throw their votes away" by voting for a third party candidate in a swing state. I think that number is much smaller. See Florida in 2004: the number of Nader voters was less than 0.5% (perhaps they learned their lesson in 2000).

jsh1120 said...

The media continues, as it always does, to insist that third party candidates be assessed in terms of their place on a left-right continuum. In fact, what both Nader and Barr represent to a large extent is an anti-political perspective that isn't captured by that continuum.

It's especially noteworthy that Nader hurts McCain more than Barr. The reason is simple; name recognition as a long-standing anti-establishment figure. For a significant minority of Americans endorsement by either major political party is a minus, not a plus. And the particular ideological predisposition of a third party candidate is largely irrelevant.

Neither the media nor the polling organizations they employ are well-suited to interpret this contrarian perspective, but it continues to be a significant part of the American political scene.

Anonymous said...

I really like the insight that McCain may suffer from Nader as well because of left of center Clinton supporters. I would not underestimate how much some of them loathe Sen. Obama though.

I mean they really really really dislike him. Some of these left of center voters are probably going to vote for McCain particularly if the race in their state is close. They would like nothing more than to actually have their vote matter and if they are in a swing state it will. Either way, the "PUMA" vote is pretty small and probably shrinking.

Hey Anonymi Just Pick A Name! said...

Today's Ras tracking: Obama 45 to 41, 48 to 45 w/leaners; slightly larger lead than Rasmussen has been showing.

Doesn't look like they are releasing any state polls today, usually mentioned in the press release.

Anonymous said...

BAD DAY FOR OBAMA IN QUINNIPIAC POLLS!!!!

DOWN BY 2 IN COLORADO!!!

UP ONLY 2 IN MINNESOTA!!!

UP ONLY 4 IN MICHIGAN!!!

GOOD LEAD IN WISCONSIN--11 POINTS!!!

Anonymous said...

Clearly, anti-Obama democrats are better off voting for Nader than McCain.

It would be interesting to see that effect in every state.

Pete Kent said...

Take a look at what I wrote @ 8:11 last night in the Today's Polls 7/23 Thread:

"In the four man race Nader seems to pull more from McCain than Obama and Barr is barely a factor. This suggests to me that in polling at least McCain is attracting some protest votes among the PUMAs and the Daily KOS crowd."

This is precisely the point that Nate is making today! Great minds think alike! And I scooped our host!

Many of you like to mock me and deride what I have to say, but I think I come closer than many in seeing what's out there and how these tea leaves ought to be read.

Sorry for the bragging, but I get kicked around so much on this site, that I could not help defending myself.

So many of you post drivel and confabulate over nonsense. I know the names and skip over their posts. Y'all can't see the forrest for the trees most times.

lilnev said...

New Q polls, don't look good for Obama:

COLORADO: McCain 46 - Obama 44
MICHIGAN: Obama 46 - McCain 42
MINNESOTA: Obama 46 - McCain 44
WISCONSIN: Obama 50 - McCain 39

McCain's first lead in CO, and a miniscule 2 points in MN (down from 17 last month -- that's going to hurt the Super Tracker). MI and WI are more in line with our expectations, though still a 2 pt drop in each.

Hey Anonymi Just Pick A Name! said...

Ugh, don't like those Quinnipiac polls. But +11 in Wisconsin vs. only +2 in Minnesota doesn't seem logical. Also strange that Q would be so out of line with Rasmussen on MN.

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Anonymous said...

OBAMA IS ABROAD DOING A HOLIDAY

MCCAIN IS WINNING

HE'S UP EVERYWHERE

MCCAIN WILL WIN

YES WE WILL

Pete Kent said...

Those Q polls other than WI do look bad for Obama. He needs a margin of soemthing like 3 points at least to counter the risk of a Bradley effect and has to watch the undecideds. If they are high and break for McCain 6 to 4 sort of like they did for Clinton, what appears to be a modest lead in the election day polls will turn out to be a win for McCain.

While nationally BO is getting a small boost from his Rainbow Tour, in certain pockets, like MI, I think it plays badly as it seems in disregard to the lunch bucket issues that heartland voters care about. Put OH and parts of PA in this category as well.

Undecided said...

The Q polls will be easily explained away, just watch...