Our continuously-updated list of Tipping Point States -- recently represented with a snazzy new map -- tells you which states are most likely to determine the outcome of this year's election. As described in the FAQ:
'Tipping Point States' are those states that tip the outcome of the election from one candidate to the other. In each simulation run, the states are lined up from best to worst for each candidate. The states are marked off sequentially until the candidate reaches 270 electroal votes. The state responsible for putting the candidate over the top to 270 electoral votes is the tipping point state for that simulation run.Naturally, Tipping Point States are usually going to be those associated with large electoral vote counts. It's much more likely that a state like Pennsylvania, which has 21 electoral votes, will make the difference between winning and losing the election than something like Montana, which has 3. The goal of the Tipping Point States metric is to balance which states are closest to the median of the electorate with the value of each state in the Electoral College -- and it generally comes up with pretty intuitive results.
However, it is not necessarily the case that the states with the highest Tipping Point number will represent the best return on investment for the candidate. While Pennsylvania is more likely to swing the election than Montana, it is also many times more expensive. Of course, a campaign will still want to invest more in Pennsylvania than it does in Montana in the aggregate. But which state is better on a dollar-per-dollar basis?
To get at this, what we can do is divide a state's Tipping Point percentage by its population (more specifically, it's eligible voter population). What this implicitly assumes is that the expense of competing in a state is proportional to its eligible voter population. Strictly speaking, this is not true, especially when it comes to television buys, where there are a lot of idiosyncrasies related to the geography of different TV markets (something I'll be writing more about in the near future). But it's a reasonably safe and neutral assumption for our purposes here.
This calculation produces a ratio, whose value is meaningless in the abstract, but which can be compared to the ratio in the country as a whole (in other words, we're taking the ratio of the ratios). The ratio figures, for instance, that a dollar spent in Pennsylvania is about 3.5 times more likely to influence the outcome of the election than one spent in the nation as a whole. This is what we call the "Return on Investment Index". Which states have the highest ROIs?

The top state is New Mexico, which produces an ROI almost 6 times higher than the nation at large. Why New Mexico? We project it to be very close to the median of the electorate. Right now, we are predicting a 2.7-point victory for Barack Obama in New Mexico, versus a 3.7-point victory in the national popular vote. Strictly speaking, the states that deserve the most attention are not those that are closest at any given moment, but rather those that are closest to the national average. If, say, Barack Obama has built a 12-point lead in August, you will probably start to see some weird things like Mississippi being a toss-up. But that doesn't mean the Obama campaign should at that point begin to invest heavily in Mississippi, because the only time the decision to invest in an individual state matters is when the election is close. If that hypothetical 12-point lead in August reverted back to a 1-point lead in October -- the only contingency that matters, it is very likely that Mississippi would no longer be one of the closer states. Likewise, even though Obama has a "safe" lead in Pennsylvania now, he cannot stop campaigning there (nor can McCain), because if the election tightens, Pennsylvania is liable to be within a couple of points.
The other small advantage in an investment in New Mexico is that small states have more electoral votes per eligible voter: New Mexico offers one electoral vote for every 274,000 eligible voters, whereas Pennsylvania offers one per 449,000.
Overall, the map suggests a slightly more defensive-minded resource allocation strategy than the one that the Obama campaign is employing currently. It doesn't look like states like Oregon and Iowa are going to be all that close now, for instance, but it also doesn't look like the election is going to be all that close; if the polls tighten, they may be vulnerable. At the same time, the calculation validates the Obama campaign's decision to put resources into states like North Dakota (which ranks 10th by this metric), Montana (14th) and Alaska (17th). By contrast, Florida ranks just 25th. It's running about 6 points behind Obama's national averages, and it's extremely expensive to compete in.

85 comments
TYPO:Tipping Point States' are those states that tip the election of the outcome. . .
Did you intend to write "flip the election outcome . . . " (not "election of the outcome")
WTF ?
why do you have porn ads on this site
I just wanted to make a point about demographic/regional reactions. If Obama loses some of his lead -- say 3 points -- it seems unlikely to me that he loses 3 points equally everywhere. Maybe a position on offshore drilling (just an example) could irritate people in the South (say even up to 8% of them) but lose no support on the Northeast and West coasts. Couldn't this create a 3-point drop that is not felt equally everywhere? In fact, couldn't his national poll numbers be weakened but his support could actually strengthen in a place like Oregon? I guess I have my doubts over the equal distribution of the support that puts him over the top in national votes. Maybe some of his support in certain regions is "softer" than other regions.
P.S I don't see any porn ads on this site -- I don't know what that previous commenter was talking about.
Great post! All the details on Tipping Point states will be greatly appreciated by many, especially myself.
QUESTION: Why is it that smaller states get more EVs per capita? Will the census correct that or is it inherently build into the system?
I don't see any porn ads on this site
Maybe the guy meant "candidate X".
This whole site is top quality porn for us political junkies!
Sugar,
Actually, another new change that's coming online is that we are going to have a specific estimate of the variance/volatility of the polling in each state. So something like New Hampshire, where the polls have moved a lot, will have a larger range of possible outcomes associated with it than somewhere like Oregon, where they haven't.
QUESTION: Why is it that smaller states get more EVs per capita? Will the census correct that or is it inherently build into the system?
I can answer this one. It is built into the system. It was originally designed to protect agricultural and rural interests from the "tyranny" of the majority -- city slickers :-). It is the same reason every state gets 2 Senators regardless of population.
The number of electoral votes for each state is actually determined by the number of Representatives in the House + the number of Senators. That's why every state has a minimum of 3. The only other place that gets electoral votes is D.C. which also gets 3 via the 23rd Amendment to the Constitution.
This is awesome. It totally quantifies a concept I had thought about several times without being able to quantify.
A couple comments to previous posters:
1. If he drops, does he drop equally across the board. Theoretically, no but I believe practically yes. I don't think that there will be that much more regional variation for changes, some states have Rep. tilt others have Dem. If he drops nationally by 3, I think he might drop by 1.5 in some states and 4.5 in others, but I don't see many issues that could cause serious collapse.
2. EV is based on total congresspeople. Senators + Reps. Reps are based on population. Sens aren't. CA might have 53 times VT's population. That means it gets 53 reps to VT's 1. Since they both have 2 sens, VT gets a much higher EV proportion.
Obsessed:
It's inherent in the system. Each state's EVs are the sum of its number of representatives + the number of senators (2). If state A has 1 representative and State B, with 20 times, the population, gets 20, they get 3 and 22 EV's respectively.
Very cool. This is basically a measure of how much impact voters in a given state will have on the election. It's the degree to which the electoral college makes voters in some states more important than others.
The reason the ranking looks more defensive is because Obama is currently favored; as you mention, this ranking favors states that are near the middle of the electorate, which are always more "safe" for the leading candidate. I'm a little surprised Missouri doesn't rank higher.
Nate, it's great to see you're adding the per-state variance. You could use this to develop another ROI metric in terms of EV / resource. A simple approach would be to assume that X resources spent in a state of population P shifts the mean expected outcome proportional to X/P. You could then figure out the optimal allocation of resources to maximize the number of expected electoral votes. This analysis would focus more on "Toss-up" states, and provide an indication of how to get the most EVs out of these states. My guess is that this metric is similar to the one used by the Obama campaign, which is why their resource allocation appears to be a little more agressive.
PS -- I see no porn ads on this site. If you are, you should probably check your computer for adware/virus infections.
I know you said you'd get to this later, but I would be curious to see something that included this + cost of media/voter in a state.
For example, reaching NH voters often means buying Boston TV time. Its extremely expensive and 90% of the people you are talking to don't live in a swing state. ND TV is absurdly cheap. If you can calculate it like that, it might be better to spend a $1 in ND than NH even if ND has a lower ROI
It might be very interesting for these purposes to see the states that set off your 'recount' scenarios (in which a state is decisive and closer that .5%). For purposes of figuring out the most cost-effective way to campaign, you might also consider substituting some absolute number of votes (say 30,000) for the percentage. Though Pennsylvania media is more expensive that Montana media, it's not obviously more expensive on a per-viewer basis.
If you could figure out the states that are most likely to be decisive and within 30,000 votes, you could answer the question of what state you would campaign in, if you could change 15,000 votes by campaigning in that state. That seems like a useful question to me.
Another way of phrasing the relative value metric, which may produce different answers from your 'tipping point' approach, is 'what is the relative probability that a single vote (or a hundred votes) flipped in this state would flip the election's outcome?' That seems like the most unambiguous definition of the value of a vote in a state.
I've done some calculations from this premise, trying to quantify how much the electoral college slants things toward swing states, and the results were surprising. You're in a good position to take a crack at the same calculations; you might try that.
I hope you include that graphic as a standard graphic in your right-side frame???
Nate,
That's really cool that you are planning the variance/volatility statistics. One thing perhaps to keep in mind -- it might make sense to use the weight of the different pollsters (without the date) as a factor because some polls may show a "wild" swing due to poor methodology and/or small sample size.
But you were probably planning to do that already. :-)
I'm also interested to see how the realities of media markets being split between states affects things.
JeffC pointed out that to reach New Hampshire voters it's necessary to buy Boston TV time. Another state that comes to mind as being more expensive than it looks from its numbers of voters is New Jersey (where I grew up), because most New Jersey residents watch New York or Philadelphia TV stations.
As a Philadelphian, this means that I got to see television ads on three separate occasions during the primary season -- for NJ's Feb 5 presidential primary, PA's Apr 22 primary, and NJ's June 3 primary for non-presidential offices. (The NJ presidential primary was moved up for this cycle, but other offices remained on the traditional June date.) And for at least a couple weeks now I've been getting general-election ads from Obama and McCain -- I assume they're targeting Pennsylvania here, not New Jersey.
Much of northern Delaware, which is where the population is, also gets Philadelphia-based television.
Mike J.
"Though Pennsylvania media is more expensive that Montana media, it's not obviously more expensive on a per-viewer basis."
I am really curious about this question. I'd like to research it. A couple of points.
1. TV from the interior of states is much cheaper, because you don't waste viewers. Richmond TV will be far more costeffective for reaching VA voters than DC TV since there are so few extraneous MD and DC voters you still have to pay for. Still more VA voters watch DC TV than Richmond and you need to reach NoVA voters somehow if you are making a play on Va.
2. I suspect small metro areas have better prices than large ones on a price/viewer basis. I think this is a supply and demand issue. The local pizza joints and used car lots can only buy up so much time on Helena TV. Yet the Helena TV stations have to sell just as many 30 second spots. In Philadelphia, there are far more bidders at the auctions.
I'm going to research this a little. Does anybody else know a place for average Price/Viewer stats in metro areas?
Could you comment a bit on the robustness of the result under the specified assumption? You're using the number of eligible voters as a measure of cost in the state. Have you run the "ROI" using different metrics (e.g. average cost per advertising point, the Kerry campaign expenditure/average poll movement ratio, etc.)?
Question...
What is the most accurate measure of the race. State polls, or national polls. I understand state polls are necessary because of the electoral college, but when deciding on Baracks lead right now, how do state polls relate to the national lead?
I agree with others--this is an awesome statistic! It produces results that are intuitively pleasing. For example, it shows that in an ROI sense there isn't much profit in devoting resources to Georgia, but Alaska might be worth a shot. That "feels" right to me. But of course, if this only told me things I already knew it wouldn't be worthwhile, but there are some nice "hmms" in there like Delaware and Maine.
I would like to point out two factors which don't get counted in this way of thinking. One is very difficult to quantify, and the other is not possible to quantify in these terms:
1) Novelty. Spending in a state that has not been competitive for a while is likely to be more effective...particularly when the spending is by the side that needs to break through. This suggests McCain might want to throw a little money at Oregon, and that Obama is right to go after Indiana, North Dakota, Virginia, and Montana.
2) Saturation. The first hundred dollars per person spent in a state has more effect than the second hundred, and so on. Eventually you just get saturated with ads. So it does make sense to spend some further down the list.
The last time I saw Nate write extensively on the national media market was in a tour de force series on baseball media markets. I imagine this was "subscription only" on BaseballProspectus.com but it's well worth reading for any recent subscribers who might not have seen it.
"Lies, Damned Lies - Defining a Market, Part One" Date: 2007-05-03.
"Lies, Damned Lies - Defining a Market, Part Two" Date: 2007-05-04.
"Lies, Damned Lies - Tweaking the Market Size Model" Date: 2007-05-14.
"Lies, Damned Lies - Moving the Marlins" Date: 2007-05-17.
(I know "Politics isn't baseball!" But this was really interesting.)
I think it's worth mentioning that there are more ways to spend resources other than mass media advertising. There are a lot of other ways in which a campaign spends resources on a "per-voter" basis: Campaign stops, voter registration, direct mail, etc.
I like Nate's metric because it roughly measures the importance of each individual voter without getting tied up in trying to determine how the campaigns should best reach those voters.
One more thing:
This emphasizes (if we didn't know already) just how important the industrial midwest will be. There is a 54% chance the tipping point state will be Ohio, Michigan, Indiana or Pennsylvania.
Why isn't the Obama campaign really swinging away at the hanging curve McCain gave us by going to Colombia and Mexico to talk about how much he loves NAFTA?
I'm not really sure I believe that the Tipping Point metric is really a good way to count things. Say we get to a point later in this election where Obama is really killing in the polls, netting something like 75% of the electoral vote on the average simulation. Then the "tipping point" states are the ones which, on the list of states Obama wins (sorted descending by margin of victory), lie about 2/3 of the way down (give or take, since we need to account for EV distribution).
Okay, so it favors states with more electoral votes. That's good. But why, in this situation, would we particularly care about the states at the 2/3 mark? How does pushing Obama over the 269 threshhold get equated with importance in this election?
I realize that in an Obama landslide, it's hard to say which states "mattered" anyway. But I still want to think that this model makes sense in the extreme cases, and I haven't been convinced that it does.
Jonah--Here's one way to think about it. Suppose that all the candidates care about is winning--they have no interest in a "mandate." Now, suppose that we're heading for one of the 75% of EV scenarios, and it's a week to go before the election. The one thing that could save the candidate who is behind is a major late-breaking scandal. So the one who is ahead wants to guard against the scandal, and the one who is behind wants to be poised to take advantage of it. It doesn't do any good to flip the last state currently on the list, because the scandal will flip it anyway. The key state is the one that would come into play if the scandal makes the election nearly dead-even, and that's essentially what Nate's Tipping Point criterion yields.
FWIW, New Mexico not only heads the list on Nate's ROI meassure, but it is also one of the most cost-efficient broadcast media markets in the country in terms of state-wide campaigning. The Abuquerque media cover almost nothing that isn't in the state (when I lived there it was indeed nothing, but it might have changed) and with cablle it gets almost the entire state. We got some ABQ cable when I lived in Las Cruces, some 210 miles south of ABQ. (El Paso was the over the air TV there.)
The only area I am not sure about is Eastern NM (also known as little Texas), who got most of its broadcast media from Lubbock TX.
There are actually four characteristics of the Electoral College which make this whole issue of 'tipping states' so interesting.
1) Except in rare situations (George Wallace's regional appeal in 1968 is an example) the only candidates who can compete for electoral votes are Republican or Democratic. This means that if a state has a lot of voters supporting a third party candidate the votes that matter actually matter a lot more than the votes in states with less 3rd party activity. Mississippi in 1960 was an example. It 'cost' fewer popular votes in MS that year to yield an electoral vote than just about any other state -- that's because so many voters decided to drop out of the Kennedy/Nixon contest. Those voters that participated had a disproportionate impact on the result. (The fact that Kennedy was victimized by 'faithless' electors is a seperate issue.)
2. As noted, smaller states produce a better electoral bang for the popular 'buck'. The five states with the best ratio of electoral votes to popular votes in 2004 were DC, WY, AK, VT and ND. Interestingly, though, the states at the opposite end of the spectrum aren't necessarily the largest ones. The worst ratio of electoral votes to popular votes was in WI -- CA was in the middle of the pack (24th place). This was probably because...
3. The states with the highest participation are worth the least. I know this is counterintuitive, but a state's electoral strength is based on its population -- the size of its electorate is immaterial. You'll get 3 EV's out of SD whether one voter shows up or a million. The higher the participation, the less each voter counts.
4. This is the most important. Because the Electoral College is (currently) winner-take-all, what matters isn't the ratio of popular votes to electoral votes but popular plurality to electoral votes.
Think this over: In Florida in 2000, it took 233,001 Republican or Democratic (see #1) votes to yield one electoral vote. By this metric, Florida was the most 'expensive' state to toil for electoral votes. In DC, by contrast, it only took 63,332 votes to get one electoral vote. The District was the least expensive state.
But what matters isn't votes -- what matters is plurality. In Florida, Bush got one Electoral Vote plurality for every 21.48 popular vote plurality. That's astoundingly inexpensive! In the District, Gore needed 76,925 votes of popular plurality to yield one vote of electoral plurality. DC was the most expensive state when one considers plurality rather than electorate.
In years with close elections (like '60, '68, '76, '00 or '04) the 'battleground states' yield the best ratios of Electoral plurality to Popular plurality. Strangely enough, though, in landslide years the reddest or bluest states give the best ratios (reddest states in Democratic landslides, bluest states in Republican landslides). In 1984, Minnesota yielded the best ratio of Electoral plurality to Popular plurality -- but that's misleading because Minnesota was the state that determined whether Reagan was going to defeat Mondale by a count of 525-13 or 535-3. Minnesota could hardly be called a 'tipping state'!
It turns out that in close elections (the only ones where tipping states matter) the same states keep coming out as 'expensive' and the same ones keep coming out as 'inexpensive'.
In the five recent close elections, the best bang for your buck comes from the following states:
1) NM
2) WI
3) NV
4) NH
5) OR
It's been pretty stable at the other extreme as well. The most expensive states are:
1) MA
2) DC
3) UT
4) NE
5) ID
Why does this matter? It matters because franchise matters. Because of our winner-take-all system, voters in NM regularly wield sixteen times as much power as voters in MA. This is in close elections, the only elections where voter strength actually matters. In landslides, such as 1980, Massachusetts' plurality was 76 times more valuable than New Mexico's. Of course, that only meant that Reagan got 489 EV's instead of 475.
If I were going to climb up on a soapbox (which, of course, I would never do!) I would argue that the least democratic aspect of the Electoral College isn't that votes from small states count so much -- it's that winner-take-all means that voters from 'tipping' states count much, much more (in close elections) than voters in 'safe' states.
One man, one vote???? I don't think so!
...I'm guessing that everyone already realizes this, but another piece of evidence that NM voters count more than the rest of us is the fact that, since it was admitted to the Union in 1912, New Mexico's electoral votes have gone to the winner of the national election in every single election year but 1976 and 2000 and those elections could very easily have gone the other way.
My advice? Go West! (Unless you already live in Arizona -- then my advice is Go East!)
Love the ROI metric (with its own snazzy map). It feels intuitive that the top ranked states in this metric are ones the Obama campaign should target as the highest priorities, as the top states represent the easiest path to 270 EVs.
If the model can be refined by markets, then the value of Pennsylvania would go even higher. This may seem counter-intuitive, but Obama could target the Philadelphia market very little, and focus on Pennsylvania's other significant (and significantly cheaper) markets. The demographics are such that this year Obama is likely to win the five county Pennsylvania part of the Philadelphia region by over 600,000 votes, even if he were to stop advertising in the region. By way of comparison, Kerry won the region by almost 500,000 votes in 2004.
One reason Obama will do better in the Philadelphia region is that the four suburban counties have trended bluer in the past four years, with Democratic majorities now in three of the four suburban counties (which is a seismic shift in local politics). McCain will have to play catch-up with a very significant investment in all of the Pennsylvania markets (including Philadelphia) if he wants to keep the state in play.
In fact, Obama doesn't need much advertising, just set Ed Rendell loose, and have him do rallies in Philadelphia and the suburbs. Eddie's waaaaaaaay popular in the Philadelphia region, and was a major reason why Kerry carried the region by so many votes in 2004.
Thats not a porn ad. Its Florida. Don't worry, its always looked like that.
I think counsellorben has a great point. We concentrate on the cost of television markets, but we have left out the free publicity generation of elected officials. CA has hugely expensive markets, but a GOP governator gives McCain pub anytime he wants it and probably keeps him above a 0% chance there. Democratic governors in the West and mayors in the South are what make me think Obama has a chance at a landslide. Their extra money and organization might get them more involved.
This is very possibly the coolest posting you've had- and that is saying a lot. I thought math and statistics couldn't be intriguing until i found out about 538.
This is the type of info you would never find on "news" sites but it is so interesting and important.
Btw- Paul Bradford- your post could be a main article on this site- its avery good follow up to Nate's work- and epitomizes why 538 is so great- it's not just nate and sean-but the great blogs from readers too
I like this metric, but I have qualms about it. As a good model probably should, it seems to look at 51 separate regional contests, which isn't quite the reality.
I can't prove this, but I suspect that the effects of the money spends themselves have important spillover effects that the model doesn't capture.
For instance, I think Kerry may have lost Ohio, his tipping point state, precisely because he overinvested there (and in FL and PA). As the tide of the popular vote turned against him nationwide where he was underweighting, that may have harmed him more in the battleground states than the extra investment helped.
As y'all noted about ND, Obama helps himself by going aggressively after states that look too red to the rational investor. He frames the state of the race and of his confidence. He won't win ND or GA, but he may gain enough nationwide by going there that it's money/time well spent.
He can lose centrist states by deploying too conservatively.
Conversely, McCain shouldn't spend all his time defending VA. He should go play where he knows he won't win. There's still plenty of Boeing employees and military folks in WA, for instance, (plus a few of the worst racists in the country, believe it or not). McCain can gain by "wasting" some money there.
It has been a tradition for a long time to expend resources on Florida and Missouri, but your analysis shows there are many other states worth more time and money. This is a fascinating example of the potential of statistical analysis to confront "conventional wisdom" - like it has in baseball.
This IS an extraordinary post. It sums up in a very simple way an enormous amount of data.
One interesting thing about this site is that it is all about a data driven analysis of a political campaign - and yet it never had any direct discussion of money, anywhere. Nate is coy about money. I do not mean this as a criticism: it's just interesting. Did you say he did talk about money in Baseball? Perhaps his just gathering his data on money in the campaign.
It has been a tradition for a long time to expend resources on Florida and Missouri, but your analysis shows there are many other states worth more time and money.
Indeed, and I would argue that Florida and Missouri should both be near the bottom of Obama's priority list at this point.
Missouri has become a de-facto Southern state and all the attitudes and voting patterns that go along with that. It is no longer the great bellwhether state it once was.
And Florida was only close in 2000 because Joe Lieberman convinced all the Miami Beach bubies and zadies to get out their walkers and go vote.
I could name at least 8-10 states that should be higher up on Obama's campaign priority list.
Nate,
I'm a huge fan of BP and all the work that you do over there, and I'm blown away by what you've been able to compile and analyze here. When I run for office, I definitely want you in my camp.
"Nate is coy about money. I do not mean this as a criticism: it's just interesting. Did you say he did talk about money in Baseball?"
He talks a lot about money. Did you ever read Moneyball? Nate sort of belongs to same school of statistians that Moneyball popularized.
Its not really about money per se as resource allocation. You have limited resources and you have to prioritize your investments. Is it better to get a power hitting slugger or a speedy leadoff man? What about a closer vs a starter?
The theory is pretty much the same in politics. Every resource is limited and the candidates need to decide whether North Dakota or Florida provides a better return on investment.
BTW the resource being allocated doesn't have to be money. We could be talking about candidate visits or a trading prospect. Whatever it is, you need to get the best ROI.
I have to rag on the media for a sec,
Listening to the total bull shit comming out of CNN, MSNBC and of course FOX, should be classified as torture. Forget water-boarding. Nothing could be more painful than watching intelligent people spoon feed pure garbage down the American peoples throat every day, hour after hour, year after year. I swear I get stupider every single second that garbage enters my brain.
Tonight I listened as Anderson Cooper who I usually consider unbiased, practically read republican talking points as he questioned whether or not Barack Obama Flip-Flopped on Iraq. He spent 20 minutes leading the show on this topic. So, where did he get this assumption? The McCain campaign said it. No proof. No qoute, nothing.
Apparently Obama said after going to Iraq later this summer he may "refine" his position on Iraq. REFINE. How could anyone with a 7 year old comprehension of the English language think that was a change of position? But the McCain campaign said that was a flip flop, and so CNN, needing to fill out the hour on a slow news day decided, what the heck. Lets just throw out objective fact. Hell, they said it, so we can put it on air and discuss it for 20 minutes as fact. Mark Helprin of Time magazine who I also consider reasonable, said "This is the biggest news of the general election." Are you serious?
During the next few days see if there is a media dust-up and all the other cable networks latch on and cover this too. I have no problem criticizing Barack Obama. He has flip flopped on a number of issues. But to claim he has flip-flopped on Iraq because the republicans say it is unbelievable. Many people watch these networks to get informed. How can casual observers make smart decisions when the media thats supposed to be educating them is filling them with talking points from a political campaign. Its no wonder our country is in such bad shape.
Sorry for the rant. I'm so pissed off right now.
SarahLawrenceScott said...
I would like to point out two factors which don't get counted in this way of thinking. One is very difficult to quantify, and the other is not possible to quantify in these terms:
1) Novelty.
2) Saturation.
________
Good points Sarah, can I add one more?
Pushing McCain add buys: I think Obama is developing his strategy based on the assumption that he is going to beat McCain in fundraising. This of course could prove incorrect, but wouldn't it also make sense to push McCain in the sheer number of media markets -- forcing defensive spending -- that would weaken McCain's ability to fully compete in the real battle ground states?
There is one point I'd like to make that seems to be overlooked. Lack of polling in a state increases its score in the Return on Investment Index. DE and ND (and even IN to some extent), for example, rank this high not because they will be close (DE is predicted to be an Obama blowout), but because right now we have no certainty in how candidates are doing there. No one has polled them in ages. That decreases the probability of the projected winner actually winning, which in turn inflates their Return on Investment score.
Could Nate or some intrepid member of the 538 audience explain the math in the Poll Detail tables. For instance, at the bottom of the Alaska table, it lists Alaska as projected to go Republican 51.5%. Below, it lists the GOP percentage of winning as 76%. Is this after the 10k simulations are run? Help.
"because the only time the decision to invest in an individual state matters is when the election is close."
sac bunting analog ftw!
Florida is a special case.
First because Obama is curently weaker than he should be because of never having campaigned there during the primaries, and Hillary blaming their lack of representation on Obama. He has a lot of potential for improvment.
Second we know that a Democrat with Obama's policies can do well in Florida. Hillary has effectivly identical policies and for her it was safe blue. Now that Hillary is an Obama supporter it valid to hope that she can win it for him.
Third there is the hope of forcing McCain to confuse his message (not that much force seems necesary). McCain can't aford to loose Florida. He is likely to panic and offer floridians concessions that don't sit well in other states.
This final point is a good argument for Obama's wide spread of effort. McCain hase no real concept of modern news dispersal. Anything he says to pander to one state or voting block spreads faster & more deaply. Inconsistencies are more glaring.
As example he is getting into real trouble trying to apeal both to puma and the religious right. He is trying to be both pro AND anti right to choose.
In Florida I expect the mistake might be over drilling. He may base his arguments on the fixed polls that show support for drilling.
I hope you'll forgive a comment that's more graphics-related than math-related, but I feel your choice of red as a hue for this smashing new map may confuse and/or discourage some initiates to the site. (Since red, obviously, is one of two hues you artfully to shade in the electoral vote map directly above it.)
Why not use shades of green, for instance, so that - at a glance - no one (including the media mavens who are hopefully visiting 538) comes away thinking that Ohio and Pennsylvania have suddenly gone deep dark red. More clarity never hurts.
Thanks for maintaining such a fantastic site.
This model should be refined in two ways.
First, ROI should account for effectiveness of spending. This can be calculated by looking at past presidential elections, and seeing how much each side spent in the state, and what were the actual results. In order to isolate the specific effects of spending, one can compare states with similar electoral profiles, but different spending in a specific election, or compare the results of recent elections when the spending was different.
Second, the ROI index should calculate the rate of return per Republican investment. It should estimate the return of each Democratic dollar spent for each Republican dollar spent.
On the subject of resource allocation and return of investment, I'd like to throw out a question: Within a single state, where would it be most cost-effective to allocate your resources?
I'm not focusing on the ad prices in different TV markets here, but rather asking where we should assume that individual voters have the largest "propensity to flip".
Candidate support is unevenly distributed in a state. Should you go for places where you're already favored, trying to get the last few? Or will the same amount of dollars spent on ads, mailings or organizing get you more votes where you're weak and there are more potential converts? Or do places with an evenly divided electorate have the largest share of swingable voters?
You often see media reports on elections saying things like "Candidate X managed to win county Y by a slim margin", giving the impression that the last votes giving him plurality would somehow count more than the others. This is probably a spillover effect from "swing-state thinking" in nationwide election reporting.
I could even imagine that campaigns sometimes make strategy mistakes due to this kind of thinking, preferring to make a play for regions that "can be won" rather than places where they are sure to win or lose by large margins, but where the cost of extra votes might be much lower.
Thanks for clarifying and improving the Tipping Point States. I think this is a great site.
A suggestion: I would love to see some kind of graphic that superimposes previous Dem and Rep candidates, with the present one against the factor of time. This way I could compare how Obama's polling rates against, say Kerry or Gore at the same time of the year, and also on aggregate - i.e. is the Obama average against McCain greater than the Kerry average against Bush for June, July, in total, etc.
Answer to question by Black Political Analysis:
Yes, the win % is the % of times the candidate wins the simulated elections.
This is very interesting. However, one thing I guess it misses is the effect of perceptions on reality. For example, suppose Obama is seen to have abandoned Florida. This decision may be irrelevant to Florida, but could nonetheless hurt him nationally if it is taken as a sign of weakness, which can then end up hurting him in places like Ohio.
After his commitment to a 50-state campaign, I don't see how Obama can be seen to too obviously abandon any state. Anyway, part of the tactic must be to keep as many states theoretically in play as possible to make McCain spread his meagre resources. I don't think Obama can win Florida but it would be well worth his while investinng enough time and money to keep McCain tied up there because McCain cannot win the election without Florida.
I never understood Obama's commitment to a 50-state strategy as a commitment to fight equally hard in every state (nor to repeat Nixon's 1960 mistake of fulfilling his pledge to visit every state during the campaign).
Instead, it was a pledge not to make any a priori assumptions about where to engage the opposition -- either in the primaries or in the general election. In particular it was a commitment to expand the field of competition beyond where it had been the last couple of elections.
Indeed, we saw that Obama's broadened strategy really paid off during the primaries, compared to Clinton's focus on certain key states (from her perspective).
Now he's still playing hard in a lot more states than many people supposed. If that's an 18-state strategy or a 50 state strategy, who cares? He'll complete where he needs to to win the election, but is also mindful of downticket coattails issues. Is this a winning strategy: so far so good.
I like this idea, Nate. A couple of things that might be improvements:
1) Toss the landslides. Which state is the tipping point doesn't really matter in landslide cases. You've got nearly 32% of your trial runs coming up as landslides by your 375+ standard, and I'd recommend (for ROI purposes) discarding all results where one candidate wins >340 EVs. If you win 340 EVs, you can toss FL, OH, and PA, and you've still won.
If the ROI map looks pretty much the same if you toss the landslides, then it doesn't matter. But if it looks noticeably different, I think you'd want to go with the non-landslide version.
2) Rather than eligible-voter population, you might use something VORP-like to compute the size of the needed investment. The idea here is that the candidate who's less likely to win a state is still going to get a certain number of votes in a state, even if he contests it only minimally. That would be the equivalent of your replacement player in baseball. The important number is how many more votes he'd need to get, to win that state.
In today's landscape, where mass mailers have sliced and diced the population more ways than can be imagined, and where Obama has his network of paid and volunteer workers on the ground in pretty much every state, it seems to me that the cost of appealing to the voters you need is likely to be more proportional to the number of voters you need in a state, than to the number of voters in the state.
Happy Independence Day.
I posted elsewhere but will summarize here.
1. Map much better way to present information and "must win" was becoming noise rather information.
2. But I think that there should be two maps M tippers and O Tippers.
3. Separation of wheat from chafe. At 10K sims anything under ~2.3% is not meaningful. So why list them or color them?
Here was my earlier commentary:
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/06/defining-must-win-technical.html#comment-442583057509734471
The argument of focusing on tipping point states applies equally well to McCain. So if Obama goes for Florida, McCain should assume he is making a mistake, and spend his own resources on states like Ohio, Virginia and Colorado.
The only reason to play well outside the battle ground states is to send a message of power. Something like, if I can afford to compete in state xyz then that means I am really powerful and a winner. Therefore, people in Ohio/Virginia/Colorado should vote for me.
I calculated with the turnout and the exit poll 2004 and for me Obama will win with + 100.000 votes in Ohio.
Democrats will be 10% more than Republicans (45%-35%) with 20% independents
He gets 80% ( or 78-79 ) DEM and 10% REP, he win because the independents in Ohio wil be for him by 5-10%.
Independents in the polls actually are 10% more for Obama and the exit poll in 2004 for in OH : 59-40 for Kerry.
http://us.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/OH/P/00/
President Bush is speaking in VA
he is being hackled
Kromkowski,
Based on my experience in the field I HIGHLY doubt excluding blowouts will affect the outcomes. Presumably the randomization is nearly symmetric in distribution (normality of the underlying errors).
If so the ordering of states will not greatly be affected by changes in the national popular vote.
Doesn't matter if its a landslide or a nail bitter, the same handful of states are likely to push a candidate over 270 in the ordered sense.
Georgia is far more likely to be the last state counted in Obama's column in a blowout than to be the state that tipped the election.
Does this strengthen the vice presidential candidacy of Bill Richardson?
Also, is it possible in the future to run this against demographic tipping points in these states? Are there certain highly elastic voter demographics that cash can have more effect on? Like hispanics in florida 2000, something like that. This might require a very detailed analysis of past spending, but in some ways no more detailed than Pecota's comparison system. Eventually candidates could have their comparables listed at the bottom of every page.
Oh also, how come BP doesn't have a comments section on every article?
Its not really a 50 state strategy. No one really cares if he spends in Utah. If he did he would be called incompetent. At the end of the day, if you win they say your strategy was good. If you lose it was bad. It can be argued that John Kerry's strategy was bad on 04. He has admitted as much. Barrack is taking a lot of heat right now for his "shift" to the center. It will be interesting to see if it was worth the political heat in the long run.
This is an interesting analysis for outsiders to ponder, but rather like fantasy baseball, the teams aren't doing things that way.
I imagine that Obama has four or five scenarios ranked in order of preference to get him to 270 EV. Based on some core assumptions:
"If we can hold all the Kerry states that gets us to 252, then we just need 18 more EV to win. How can we assure ourselves of getting at least that much?"
That would mean they have to win Michigan and New Hampshire and are currently leading comfortably in both as well as all the other Kerry states, but will need to do some more work to nail down Michigan.
Then the scenarios arise:
Plan A: Ohio 20 EV
Plan B: Pick up Iowa, Colorado and New Mexico +21 EV
Plan C: Any combination leading to 18 EV from): Virginia (13), Nevada (5), Indiana (11)
Plan D: Throw in any of North Carolina (15), North Dakota (3), Montana (3), Florida (27), Missouri (11) as needed to fill in to 270+.
The ROI index might suggest that when executing plan C, you place more emphasis on Indiana than Nevada but New Mexico, Colorado, Iowa, and Ohio were always going to be key investments anyway, because the figure in the most obvious winning scenarios, and New Hampshire's 4 EV are surprisingly important in that holding them enables you to have SEVERAL more plausible winning scenarios.
Of course, none of this will matter if Obama continues to cruise along at +5%. In that case he'll win every one of the states on that list with the possible exception of North Dakota and Montana.
P.S. I forgot to mention the most plausible winning scenario from holding New Hampshire would be that then Colorado (9) + New Mexico (4) + Iowa (7) gets you to 272, all of which are very doable, gets you to 272 rather than 269 and a horrible mess in the House of Representatives, after which President Obama starts out crippled instead of with a mandate.
But of course, if this only told me things I already knew it wouldn't be worthwhile, but there are some nice "hmms" in there like Delaware and Maine.
Delaware, however, is not actually a good return on your investment because to contest it you have to use the Philadelphia media market, which is very expensive. Of course, they're going to be using the Philadelphia media market anyway to contest Pennsylvania, so maybe that evens out.
Nitpick: NM is 5 EVs, so in Cugel's last scenario you have 273 EVs (although that's pretty easy to infer from context).
People talking about media markets may be overlooking the fact that a large proportionof voters get their TV through cable systems. (I must admit I have no knowledge of how satellite advertising works.)
Such systems permit paying for advertising over only a portion of the overall market coverage. That is, if you wanted to reach Delaware but didn't want to pay for virtually all of SE PA, you would buy time through the cable companies in Delaware. Even on national programs some advertising slots are reserved for local buys, so it is possible to target closely even on national TC shows.
(I just realized it's been close to 30 years since I was invoilved in media buys - too much tempus fidgitted away.)
re porn adds
Recently I've noticed weird adds make it to mainstream websites, e.g. of relatively obscure online stores I sometimes browse. I think the browsers started to track that stuff and to place banners appropriate for specific users. I guess if you browse porn, you'd see porn adds :)
From his reaction, he sure didn't sound like someone who likes porn =P My guess is the malware suggestion from above sounds the most likely
Want to reinforce the last anonymous' comment: Ads seem to be placed by Google, based on browser history. Over the last weeks, several people had been mocking about McCain ads on the page, while I was always getting a "Visit Lisboa" ad in German language ..
@ Nate: I feel it is getting time for some update on the regression. Ideally, you would couple it with checks on polls' cross-tabs as to the extent to which your regression is mirroring trends among key demographics. You could then also assess the volatility of demographic groups, as shown in regression / cross tab changes. That would yield further information about not only which states, but also which demographics offer the highest ROI. For example, when going after CO, NM and NV, should you rather target them state-by-state, or through a concerted effort towards key demographics? And which demographics would that be: Latinos, well-educated professionals younger than 45 years, seniors, women? Would a focus on any of the a/m demographics offer spill-over effects to other tipping point states? I suppose, the campaigns are already doing such kind of analysis, but it would be nice to also have your (and the readers) pick on such strategies.
The only reason to play well outside the battle ground states is to send a message of power.
Hardly. While that's one reason, there are two other big ones. One is the real chance of winning big: the wider and deeper Obama's win, the more effective power he'll have, not with the voters, but with Congresscritters in 2009.
Another is to expand the set of states that might tip his way even in a close election - to expand the number of paths to 270. In 2004, Kerry's campaign essentially turned into a battle for Ohio, which he lost. The more formerly red states where Obama's support is roughly the same as his national support, the more paths to 270. (Or 269, for that matter. I don't see Obama being handicapped by a H of R win, any more than Bush was handicapped by his 5-4 win in 2000.) And the more options for Obama if it comes down to the wire.
This is really brilliant analysis.
It makes so much sense - I wonder if the campaigns have folks on their staff thinking of biz like this. I mean really... I hadn't heard of this sort of idea before - but when you think about it - comparing the state to the national level makes perfect sense. Really the only time the electoral math matters is if the election is close. So it makes most sense to put money into those states that are most likely to be close if the election is close.
This ROI metric is pretty volatile or maybe not a measure of anything In the intitial 7/3 post Indiana is 3.3 (ninth), but today (7/5) the ROI puts IN somewhere below 2.0 and IN does even make the top 15.
How? change in method?
Also, I'm a broken record but O tippers are not M tippers (there should be two maps), so an ROI would need to be related to whose doing the investing. E.g., if NM is more of an O tipper than a McCain tipper, then maybe O really gets more bang for his buck than McCain in NM. On the hand NH may give McCain more bang for his buck than Obama, because Kerry - NH + IA makes NH less relevant in terms of ROI for O.
As I've just noticed this, I post here. NJ now just makes the tipper list. Consider that it is more likely than NH to go Democratic, but then look at the most recent polls. O breaks 50% in NH 2 out of 3 times, but can't break 50% in NJ is recent polls. Why.
If NJ is really a M possible tipper not an O possible tipper (which two maps would reveal) then we'd (especially the campaigns) would have something to consider.
I think the derivative
d(overall percentage of winning)/d(expected number of votes in state Y)
would be a much better ROI metric - but I suppose that can't easily be measured without extra simluations.
The criticism (far above in this thread) of the news cycle for honing in on Obama's comment -- that he might refine his Iraq policy depending on what the military commanders tell him -- is not phantom news. The journalists are focusing on a real political point at issue:
Obama had been saying for many months now that his Iraq policy was withdrawal of most U.S. troops in 16 months from inauguration. Now, it appears, he is saying that he would refine that (i.e. most troops might not be withdrawn in 16 months) if the military advice was that such a withdrawal could not be accomplished safely, and leave a stable Iraq behind [WTF? we can't create that]. This shift in emphasis is politically important, because it brings Obama perilously close to a Bush position: we'll leave, except for some Al Qaeda-fighting special teams, when safety and stability permit.
Obama now has a real problem in this area. The situation on the ground is better than it was, but the improvement is fragile. That means, looking ahead, that Obama could inherit a somewhat better situation in Iraq than we would have expected six months ago. But his policy of beginning immediate troop withdrawal could well show equally immediate decrease in stability on the ground in Iraq -- a black eye for him early in his term of office. Possibly gets tagged as 'the guy who lost Iraq.'
The correct answer to this may not be politically feasible or persuasive: Yes, things are now better in Iraq (level of violence down, so forth). So, Repubs, why do you need to keep so many troops in Iraq if things are going so well? [The answer is that only with persistent U.S. forces efforts do we keep the lid on the simmering civil strife.] But the voters are likely sympathetic to the view 'if things are going better, probably we should keep doing what we are doing.' And I think Obama is sensitive to this dynamic, and is trying to do something about it. The cost, however, is the accurate perception that he has shifted his policy position.
@jdk
On the issue of tipping states there is no difference between an O-tipper and an M-tipper. In each simulation rank the states from most Obama to most McCain and identify the state that surpasses 270 EV. Repeat that ordering from McCain to Obama. You get the same "tipping" state.
Furthermore the distribution of rankings will be independent (or close to it) of the popular vote. Thus the probability of a state tipping an election will be approximately independent of whether it was won for McCain or Obama.
I agree with you on ROI. The price of a vote may vary by candidate even in tossup states. (Keep in mind Nate's ROI is not based on infra-marginal returns).
Secondly a message may work in multiple states i.e a bundling effect thus reducing the relevance of the notion of a singular tipping state.
@Randall:
This is similar to the approach used at http://election-projection.net. Election-Projection.net computes the partial derivative of the probability of each candidate winning verses a one percentage point shift in the state's opinion polls.
Original message:
"Another way of phrasing the relative value metric, which may produce different answers from your 'tipping point' approach, is 'what is the relative probability that a single vote (or a hundred votes) flipped in this state would flip the election's outcome?' That seems like the most unambiguous definition of the value of a vote in a state."
@chariots July 6, 2008 3:33 PM
You indicated that "On the issue of tipping states there is no difference between an O-tipper and an M-tipper."
I think you were wrong then and you are certainly incorrect with the tippers V2.0.
As to ROI, I'm not sure that this metric is saying anything important or actually providing information. Part of the problem is the breaks and coloring (there is no wheat from chafe separation). Essentially the map is just Obama likely or "within reach" states minus safe Democratic and safe Republican states.
Part of the problem may be that the tipper metric which needs to be first calculated is not separating O Tippers from M Tippers.
Now that the EV distribution chart has started showing a bi-modal 7/24 (pretty funky), I think it is even more critical that the Tippers for
Obama be separated from the Tippers for McCain.
Time to reexamine the Tipping States and ROI.
1. Its obviously asymmetric, so there needs to be two charts one for O and one for M.
2. So many states are colored in on the Tipper and ROI that's its becoming increasingly impossible to separated noise from information.
3. ROI, really does take into consideration the paths revealed by State Similarity Scores. E.g., the ROI for investing in IN is not just to win IN, but also affects MI and OH because if O is really close in IN, even if he doesn't win that predicts that he will win OH and MI.
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合法酒店經紀,
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酒店寒假打工,
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店小姐兼職,
便服酒店工作,
酒店打工經紀,
制服酒店經紀,
專業酒店經紀,
合法酒店經紀,
酒店暑假打工,
酒店寒假打工,
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店小姐兼職,
便服酒店工作,
酒店打工經紀,
制服酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
菲
梵,
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