7.01.2008

Lanny Davis: Still a Hack After All These Years

From his new column at Fox News:

What is pretty clear, however, is that Sen. Obama leads Sen. McCain as of now nationally by a relatively small margin — and about the same margin that John Kerry led George Bush in June of 2004.

That is the good news.

The reason for continuing concern for the Obama campaign, with which I am sure they would agree, is that the Gallup tracking polls (and virtually every other mainstream national general election poll) continue to show that the two are still so close — even with all the bad news on the McCain side of the political equation, from Bush’s below-30% approval ratings, to more than two-to-one wrong direction-right direction ratios, to the self-identified Democrats and leaners (who are at the highest gap over Republican identifiers in decades), fuel prices skyrocketing, and McCain himself conveying neither coherent themes nor projecting positively in the daily TV sound bites.

Yet, over the last six months, really ever since Iowa and up to the present, Sen. Obama has rarely, if ever, won more than 47% or 48% of the general electorate. That apparent ceiling, at least so far, should be worrisome to the Obama senior strategists and probably has been noted. It is reminiscent of both John Kerry and Al Gore’s polling numbers vs. George Bush.
Two quick points. Firstly, Davis is flat wrong that John Kerry held a national lead of the magnitude that Obama has now. Kerry flirted with a 2-point lead in the Real Clear Politics average at various points over the summer, but he never had the 6-point lead that Obama presently has in the RCP number. Al Gore, for that matter, trailed significantly for most of the summer (Bush led by an average of 5.3 points over 34 polls conducted in June and July 2000) before making a comeback after the Democrats held their convention.

Secondly, is Davis really still at it with that whole Hillary Clinton racket? At the time she abandoned her nomination bid, Clinton held about a 3-point lead over McCain in the national averages, which was pretty much her high-water mark all year. That's still three points less than the lead that Obama holds now. And Obama's gains appear to have come precisely in states like Ohio, Pennsylvania and Florida that appeared to make up the core of Clinton's electoral argument (and also in Michigan, where Clinton never polled especially well), while he continues to poll strongly in places like Virginia and Colorado that Clinton might have had difficulty competing in. I would guess that, if you polled the 49 Democratic Senators on Capitol Hill, you wouldn't find more than a dozen who would want to replace Obama with Clinton on the ticket right now. But hell hath no fury like a surrogate scorned.

88 comments

Anonymous said...

TYPO HERE? "Secondly, is Davis really still at it with those whole Hillary Clinton racket?

. . . those . . . racket?

jsh1120 said...

Excellent points, Nate. I'd only add that if one looks at McCain's numbers, he has almost never polled above 45% since January, 2007. If a candidate has a reason to be concerned about a "ceiling," it's certainly McCain.

Anonymous said...

Kerry did indeed hold a similar advantage to Bush in the Summer of '04. At this point in time in '04, Kerry was projected to win 300+ electoral votes, similar to Obama's projected EVs in '08.

Juris said...

Kerry "was projected" by whom? Your source, evidence?

Beth in VA said...

I love the reality-based analysis, thanks. This is what we (citizens) need to ground us. I appreciate the comparison with other elections.

roadkillrefugee said...

Lanny Davis commenting on polls is a bit like Andrew Sullivan judging a Hawaiian Tropics bikini contest -- he's outside his subject area expertise. How can he comment on Obama's alleged ceiling (which he can't honesty claim has solidified only days after the Unity, New Hampshire event, with Bill Clinton still playing hard to get, and Obama's explicit tacking to the center in recent days -- there's still room to grow among women, working class and independent voters in particular) without acknowledging McCain treading water between 38-44% in national and battleground state polls? As the nominee of the incumbent party controlling the White House, who is better known and wrapped up his party's nomination in March, McCain's dangerously low ceiling looks much more troubling.

Hope said...

Kerry "was projected" by whom? Your source, evidence?

July 1, 2008 2:49 PM

His source is the Anonymous Polling Group of America based out of Bullshit Town U.S.A.

They went out of business shortly after they predicted Republicans would win 87% of the black vote in Congressional Races in and around New Orlean's 9th ward in response to Bush's exceptional response to hurricane Katrina.

moondancer said...

"...like a surrogate scorned"
Especially one that dove into a tub of sewage fishing for Fox News dollars.
I know that this is a site that is centered on science, but I think Lanny and the Clinton inner circle were most responsible for her loss.

Scott said...

I disagree on only one point, Nate. My definition of a hack is someone without creativity or talent who toils for the good of the party. Which party is Lanny working for? Not the Democrats, apparently.

Shane said...

Ahh yes, Lanny Davis..

During the primaries he was one of the few Clintonistas I couldn't stand.

I read recently that at the pow-wow last week of Clinton people and Obama, Davis introduced himself to Obama who shot back with a "I know who you are."

Apparently Davis continued, nervously, to explain that he was just doing his job, being a good company man. Then he said he was grateful to Obama, that he's inspired his (davis') son and made him care about politics for the first time.

That softened me SLIGHTLY to Davis, but after this, the guys' back on the mute list.

Anonymous said...

this blog is defiled by the quotation of such a hacktacular idiot as lanny davis... not even worth further comme

michael said...

yeah, I know this is mainly about the polls, but I do have to echo Nate on Lanny Davis. Even when I was very sympathetic to his cause, around the whole Lewinsky nonsense, he came across as a complete sleaze. He and Mark Penn were pretty much the only 2 in the Clinton camp who reeked so of sleaze and corruption that I had to turn the channel when they were on.

Anonymous said...

Thank you for writing this Nate.

I had a conversation with a friend recently who kept insisting that Kerry had a huge lead in 2004. He DIDN'T. He never led by more than 2 points. Nor did he ever have Obama's favorability ratings.

Obama is in a very strong spot.

Anonymous said...

Lanny Davis will have nothing if Obama wins this election. He's at Fox News, he'll become like that dude w/Hannity. What's his name?

That's what it's looking like for him. Because basically, he has nothing but Clinton favor to trade on and that's not going to take him far with the bridges he's been burning annoying the nominee.

pablo in AZ - Ex-Republican Air force Veteran said...

LOL

is this 2004 ?

is Obama Kerry ?

Obama is going to win this thing

this is a great site

VIVA OBAMA

JGabriel said...

Juris: Kerry "was projected" by whom? Your source, evidence?

Yeah, I'd like to see this source too. As far as I remember, Kerry was never expected to win by more than 288 EV, tops, except for some naive hopefuls who believed he had a chance in FL.

.

Leo said...

Lanny Davis looks comfortable in his new concern troll suit.

Anonymous said...

Chuck Todd with NBC said Kerry had a 6 point lead in June. Lanny Davis is correct. Hussein is in deep trouble, and all you Muslim lovers better take note and prepare your crying towels on 11/4.

Anonymous said...

The good comparison is the last time a dem won the white house. Take a look at the leads that Clinton had over Dole. It wasn't even close. Look at the final electoral map for that year and what states were involved. While O'bama still can win, McCain is no Dole.

Commentary: McCain is running a much better campaign than O'bama mostly under the national radar. It seems that the dem nominee or a surrogate is a gaffe machine.

Anonymous said...

Maybe we should start referring to John McCain by his middle name as well 'Sydney'.

And we can accuse him of being a secret transsexual.

Anonymous said...

Nate,

Read your piece about Lanny Davis and i detect a note of hate toward him. As a HRC lover myself, I sympathize and agree with him. However, I will go out and vote for Obama, but Nate, with all your Mathematics you are not taking into account human nature. There are too many God Damn America's in Obama's past. As you have said on your on post, these elections tighten the closer they get to November 4. If this is all Obama can muster he will lose every Bush state and Michigan. Haven't you heard of the Bradley effect.

Concern in Bible country.

Nick said...

FWIW, here's how electoral-vote had it for July 1st 2004. You can click the "next report" link to see a snapshot of every day until election day.

here

JGabriel said...

Anon@4:15pm: Chuck Todd with NBC said Kerry had a 6 point lead in June. Lanny Davis is correct.

That's your source? Mainstream TV? No links to historical polling data?

BWAHAHAHA.

.

Anonymous said...

Exactly Nate, the polls were all over the place, Bush didn't win a lot of the States he was ahead in and vice versa for Lurch. If McCain is only down 2 points in Colorado, Michigan, Virgina( More than likely a red state) and Ohio, he wins the election. There are no more voters for BHO in these states, except the vaunted younger vote. By the way Nate, How many ex-Presidents depended on the youth vote to get elected to Office?

Concern in bible country.

JGabriel said...

Anon: Commentary: McCain is running a much better campaign than O'bama mostly under the national radar. It seems that the dem nominee or a surrogate is a gaffe machine.

Ooh, isn't that clever? O'Bama? Aren't you cute?

You know, Anon, you can't claim your McCain Trolling Points if you post anonymously. They don't have any way to verify your posting when it's anonymous.

.

jsh1120 said...

The claim that Kerry maintained a significant lead over Bush in 2004 is a conservative urban myth has been repeated endlessly over the last four years.

In fact, the only (tiny) lead that Kerry ever had other than a few outlier polls earlier in the year was immediately after the Democratic convention. That lead averaged between two and four points.

Otherwise, the largest lead Kerry ever enjoyed was in a poll in May conducted by CBS.

I suspect that the myth results from discussions of the leaked, unweighted exit poll data on election day combined with undue optimism on the part of Kerry supporters. After all, Bush did end up winning with the smallest margin of a victorious incumbent in American history.

As for Chuck Todd's comment cited above, I, too, heard it. And as much respect as I have for Todd, he was simply wrong.

Mike R said...

It is also simply untrue that Obama "has rarely if ever won more than 47% or 48% of the general electorate." In fact Obama was above 48% on 7 of the 15 June non-tracking polls posted on Real Clear Politics, including 2 of the 4 in their current average, as well as on one of the two tracking polls (Rasmussen at 49%) in their current average.
Mike R

Mission said...

Nate,

Will you point out to Mr. Davis:

1. Numbers in competitive races often never have a candidate over 50%. Certainly, if you look at the history of national match-ups, 49%-47% is actually an encouraging range to be in. Also, it's not true that Obama "rarely, if ever" jumps to 49%. In Rasmussen's tracking poll, Obama has been at 49% for the last 10 days. In fact, he's been at 50% or 49% more than he has not. In recent national match-up polls taken by Democracy Corps, LA Times/Bloomberg and CNN all have Obama at either 49% or 50%. Facts can be tricky sometimes.

2. McCain pretty much never cracks 45%. The last poll to show McCain's support above 45% was a CNN poll released about a month ago (Obama had 49% in that poll, as well). More recently, polls have pegged McCain's support to around 43%-45% of the electorate. For a candidate who was once the most popular politician in his party and one that is worlds more popular than the Republican brand, this is what should be startling, not Obama's numbers. This carries into state-by-state numbers also. In Michigan, Obama has seemingly started to pull ahead, but even when he was still losing, it wasn't because McCain was blowing him away. In data going back to February, McCain's support in Michigan NEVER cracked 45%. Check it out in recent polling in PA, OH, VA... even NC and IN, McCain can barely get past that watermark.

Do we think that McCain is going to become more popular as a nasty, divisive general election campaign swings into action?

Despite the constant right-wing attacks on Obama's religion and patriotism, America still views Obama favorably by an average of 60.6%-33.0%.

Yeah, I guess the numbers are really daunting for him.

Redshift said...

Anon@4:16 -- "The good comparison is the last time a dem won the white house. Take a look at the leads that Clinton had over Dole."

Clinton was an incumbent. No comparison; incumbency is a huge advantage.

Anonymous said...

Here is July of 2004, with all polls having Kerry ahead as much as 11%

Time/SRBI (882 LV) 7/20-7/22 44% 48% Kerry +4
Quinnipiac Univ. (1551 RV) 7/18-7/22 43% 46% Kerry +3
Fox News (767 LV) 7/20-7/21 44% 45% Kerry +1
CNN/Gallup/USAT (709 LV) 7/19-7/21 47% 49% Kerry +2
NPR - POS/GQR (800 LV) 7/18-7/20 46% 47% Kerry +1
LA Times (1,529 RV) 7/17-7/21 46% 48% Kerry +2
IBD/TIPP (842 RV) 7/12-7/17 41% 44% Kerry +3
CBS/NYT (823 RV) 7/11-7/15 44% 49% Kerry +5
Dem Corps* (1,010 LV) 7/10-13 46% 51% Kerry +5
CNN/Gallup/USAT (706 LV) 7/8-11 46% 50% Kerry +4
IBD/TIPP (800 RV) 7/6-7/10 44% 49% Kerry +5
Newsweek (1,001 RV) 7/8-7/9 45% 51% Kerry +6
Time (774 LV) 7/6-7/8 45% 49% Kerry +4
Zogby (1,008 LV) 7/6-7/7 44% 46% Kerry +2
CBS News (462 RV) 7/6 44% 49% Kerry +5
NBC News (504 RV) 7/6 43% 54% Kerry +11

Redshift said...

Shane -- "Ahh yes, Lanny Davis..

During the primaries he was one of the few Clintonistas I couldn't stand."

Lanny Davis was a Lieberman hack before that. Then he served on Bush's Privacy and Civil Liberties Board, gushing about how great the privacy protections were that he couldn't tell us about, and taking more than a year to realize he was being used. He has a long history of spouting annoying nonsense, and has earned every bit of our scorn.

Redshift said...

btw, does Davis' "over the last six months, really ever since Iowa and up to the present" a variant of Ed Morrissey's "since Iowa" poll cherry-picking? I'm sensing a talking point in circulation...

Anonymous said...

Congratulations Nate,

You have attracted Obama loving anti-semites to your site. It doesn't seem to be an accicent that both Lieberman and Lanny Davis are Jewish.

Way to go.

JGabriel said...

Anon@5:04p: Discarding the outlier at 11%, we get an avg of +3.47. Including the 11% outlier, we get an avg of +3.94.

That would seem to support the contention that, in general, Kerry's overall lead was never as high as +6. In fact, he only equals +6 in one poll, and only exceeds it in one poll. In 14 out of the 16 polls listed - cherry-picked for polls in which Kerry was leading, one assumes - Kerry is at +5 or less.

And again, the avg lead was 3.47 (or 3.94, if you insist we take the 11% outlier seriously). The median was +4.

Neither, you will note, was +6.

.

JGabriel said...

Nate/Sean/Moderator,

Please delete the Anon post at 5:16p.

There is nothing in this thread to support the accusation levelled, and it is merely an attempt to create dissension, and smear/associate Obama with socially unacceptable attitudes.

.

moondancer said...

Anon Krusty troll

The way I know you're blowing smoke up asses is Intrade. Put your money where your foghorn is. McCain's a bargain if he is sure to win: 30.6% chance. If guys like you were so cocksure, you'd be cashing in your 401 for the sure money on the geriatric wife-abuser.

Oh, and Obama? 65.1%

Anonymous said...

Whatever the exact number, the July polls in 2004 were way off the final number and had the wrong winner.

A four point Kerry win, given California and New York, would have been an electoral landslide.

Full Infinity said...

Lanny Davis? I thought they took him apart and packed him up until 2012.

Anonymous said...

Lanny Davis is a fucking cunt. No wait, he is a troll. Wait, wait, no, he is a troll's cunt. Yup, that's his new name, Lanny "Troll Cunt" Davis. What a fuckjob.

JGabriel said...

Anon@5:47,

No wonder you can't get a date.

Here's a surprising fact:

Indiscriminate use of the word 'cunt' as an insult? Not a turn-on for most women.

But, you know, if it's really important to you, then you just keep plugging away at it. I'm sure you'll eventually find your soulmate, the women who loves the word 'needledick'.

.

I'd rather a retarded chimpanzee was president over McCain said...

that huge 100+ simulation near 300 is very curious- I wonder what states make that up in most simulations? It seems for the simulations that VA and IN are tossups and MO,NC,Fl, and NV have gone closer to McCain with the changes. I guess that spike is keeping the states Obama is strong in plus one of the swings on avg?

kill the PUMA's said...

Nate-here's a question for you. How many unique ways are there to tie in the electoral college, and how many of these are plausible in this election cycle

Anonymous said...

"I'd rather a retarded chimpanzee was president over McCain said..."

Four more years then?

Juris said...

To the Anon-X who posted the list of polls from July 2004, thank you.

You proved Lanny to be wrong, Chuck T to be wrong, and Nate to be right; and further you demonstrated exactly why the composite polls are preferred. Whether it's the way RealClearPolitics does it, or Pollster.com, or 538.com, averaging across different pollsters is the way to go. And cherry-picking of individual polls is a fool's game.

I'm not sure which game you intended to play, but you ended up playing the fool.

Anonymous said...

Bush tanked the GOP brand, sure.

But this is still America, and this is still a man who is half black, has an Arabic middle name and ascended in left-wing Chicago. Anyone who assumed that he was going to be or is the overwhelming favorite is delusional.

Middle America re-elected that imbecile in 04. There are still legions of ignorant morons in this country.

God help us. And God help Barack register enough new voters in all the swing states to overcome all the worthless bastards who will come out against him.

Anyone who thinks recession or never-ending war will alter the mind of the red state Bush voter has never met one. These people are a plague on this country.

JGabriel said...

Juris: "To the Anon-X who posted the list of polls from July 2004, thank you. You proved Lanny to be wrong, Chuck T to be wrong, and Nate to be right [...] I'm not sure which game you intended to play, but you ended up playing the fool."

More fool than you know, Juris.

Turns out I was right, the Anon@5:04 did cherry-pick the polls - in particular, left out all of the polls where Bush was leading. Don't know where he/she got that list from, but the RCP list of polls in 2004 show Bush winning several times in July, and frequently in June. I wondered why the Anon chose July instead of June polls - now we know.

Weirdly, that 11% Kerry lead in the 7/6 NBC poll shows up as an 8% lead on this RCP list. Maybe the Anon made it up.


July 2004 Polls (Source RCP)

Marist (573 LV) 7/30-8/2 47% 47% 1% TIE
CBS News (991 RV) 7/31-8/1 43% 48% 3% Kerry +5
CNN/Gallup/USAT (LV) 7/30-8/1 51% 45% 2% Bush +6
ABC News/WP (LV) 7/30-8/1 47% 49% 2% Kerry +2
ARG (776 RV) 7/30-8/1 45% 49% 2% Kerry +4
Newsweek (1,010 RV) 7/29-7/30 42% 49% 3% Kerry +7
ABC News/WP (909 RV) 7/22-7/25 48% 46% 3% Bush +2
IBD/TIPP (883 RV) 7/19-7/24 42% 44% 3% Kerry +2
Time/SRBI (1000 RV) 7/20-7/22 43% 46% 5% Kerry +3
Quinnipiac Univ. (1551 RV) 7/18-7/22 43% 44% 4% Kerry +1
Fox News (767 LV) 7/20-7/21 43% 44% 3% Kerry +1
NBC/WSJ (813 RV) 7/19-7/21 47% 45% 2% Bush +2
CNN/Gallup/USAT (709 LV) 7/19-7/21 46% 47% 4% Kerry +1
LA Times (1,529 RV) 7/17-7/21 44% 46% 3% Kerry +2
Pew (1,568 RV) 7/8-7/18 44% 46% 3% Kerry +2
IBD/TIPP (842 RV) 7/12-7/17 40% 42% 4% Kerry +2
Marist (938 RV) 7/12-7/15 44% 45% 2% Kerry +1
CBS/NYT (823 RV) 7/11-7/15 42% 45% 5% Kerry +3
Dem Corps** (1,010 LV) 7/10-7/13 45% 48% 4% Kerry +3
Wash Post/ABC (721 RV) 7/8-7/11 46% 46% 4% TIE
CNN/Gallup/USAT (706 LV) 7/8-7/11 45% 50% 2% Kerry +5
IBD/TIPP (800 RV) 7/6-7/10 43% 47% 4% Kerry +4
Newsweek (1,001 RV) 7/8-7/9 44% 47% 3% Kerry +3
Time (774 LV) 7/6-7/8 45% 47% 4% Kerry +2
Zogby (1008 LV) 7/6-7/7 45% 47% 2% Kerry +2
AP/Ipsos (804 RV) 7/5-7/7 49% 45% 3% Bush +4
NBC News (504 RV) 7/6 41% 49% 4% Kerry +8
ARG 7/1-7/3 44% 47% 3% Kerry +3


June 2004 Polls (Source RCP)

NBC/WSJ 6/25-6/28 45% 44% 4% Bush +1
CBS News/NY Times 6/23-6/27 43% 42% 5% Bush +1
Fox News 6/22-6/23 47% 40% 3% Bush +7
CNN/Gallup/USAT 6/21-6/23 48% 47% 3% Bush +1
Battleground Poll 6/20-6/23 43% 41% 1% Bush +2
Gallup 6/9-6/30 45% 44% 7% Bush +1
Wash Post/ABC News 6/17-6/20 44% 48% 6% Kerry +4
IBD/TIPP 6/14-6/19 44% 41% 6% Bush +3
Harris 6/8-6/15 51% 41% 6% Bush +10
IBD/TIPP 6/8-6/13 43% 40% 5% Bush +3
Pew Research 6/3-6/13 46% 42% 6% Bush +4
Ipsos-AP 6/7-6/9 46% 45% 6% Bush +1
Fox News 6/8-6/9 42% 42% 3% TIE
LA Times 6/5-6/8 42% 48% 4% Kerry +6
Gallup 6/3-6/6 44% 50% 5% Kerry +6
TIPP/IBD 6/1-6/6 43% 41% 7% Bush +2
Zogby 6/2-6/5 42% 44% 3% Kerry +2
ARG 6/1-6/3 45% 46% 3% Kerry +1


Anyway, if we use the Anon@5:04's methodology and skip the June polls, we end up with 28 polls averaging +1.8% Kerry.

On the other hand, if we do the methodologically honest thing, and take the polls for the prior month to estimate where Kerry was at this point in time, then we end up with 18 polls averaging +0.17% Kerry. A dead tie, basically.

Looks like Nate, et. al., were right. And the Anon's at 5:04pm and 5:38pm were (sing-songy) WRONG!

.

JGabriel said...

And on that note, I leave you with this advice from XKCD.

.

Anonymous said...

Lanny Davis is every bit as clueless now as when he was making the case for Hillary Clinton to be the nominee.

First off, the national numbers, especially the ones from Gallup, are meaningless. The only thing that matters are the state by state polls.

Obama is running way ahead of Kerry from this same point in the contest from 2004 in the states that Kerry won.

He's also running well ahead of Kerry in Iowa, New Mexico, North Carolina, Virginia, Colorado, Ohio, Georgia, and Mississippi.

Iowa and New Mexico are trending hugely Democratic and I see them as locks for Obama. That means he only has to pick up ONE of the aforementioned states to win the election.

Having said that, given the huge wave of enthusiasm among the Democrats for Obama and the lack of enthusiasm on the Republican side for McCain, I think we will see well over 300 electoral votes for Obama.

MN said...

Lanny is a tool all right, but the point is worrying.

With the Bradley effect (2-4 I assume) his margins become razor thin and as was said in the actual column, with all the bad shit happening for the GOP why isn't he winning?

With his campaign largely going into "Shrum-Dem play it safe" mode this weak (along with stab the left but eh, used to it) I feel nervous as hell.

Anonymous said...

The last two successful Democratic nominees were just a bit stronger in July. Clinton in 1992 had a 30-point lead and Carter in 1976 had a 33-point lead. Clinton ended up winning by 6 and Carter by 2. But Obama is different. His 6-point lead is plenty of safety margin. I mean, Mondale and Dukakis squandered their small July leads, but Obama doesn't have their weaknesses. He can't be labeled a liberal, isn't prone to gaffes, hasn't said he'd raise our taxes, and isn't seen as weak on defense. Yes, this 6-point lead is definitely solid. In fact, I'm going to bet my 401k on Obama's 65% intrade odds right now.

Lisa said...

"Clinton in 1992 had a 30-point lead..."

When? The only possibility I could see for a lead like that would be an outlier poll in the midst of the late July post-Convention bounce.

Certainly there was no lead like that at this point in the race (July 1).

I'm searching for July '92 polls but so far have found a mid-June (June 12-14) Gallup poll that had Perot 34, Bush 32, Clinton 24.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E0CE2D7143AF93AA25755C0A964958260

That's only 2 weeks earlier than this point in the race and Clinton was in 3rd place, under 30%. Certainly nowhere even close to a 30 point lead.

Juris said...

Thanks for doing the heavy lifting, JGabriel. Even skeptical I got taken by that deceiver.

Now somebody has to clue in Chuck Todd.

Juris said...

TO NATE: It would be helpful if, in your copious spare time (ha ha), you could take the RCP poll summary from 2004 and apply your methodology (you don't need the 538 regression) to produce a "2004 Election Supertracker."

And send it to Keith O and Chuck T and CNN, and everyone else who seems to be making up myths about previous elections. A lot of data entry, I know, but it would be very instructive, it seems to me.

Is Obama running ahead of Kerry? Compere the red LOESS from 2008 withe the red LOESS from 2004. You could do a nice chart with that, it seems to me. Same with Gore-Bush 2000, which everyone will grant was a close election and of course a case where the EV result was inverted from the popular vote. If Gore-Bush was a "statistical dead heat," then how can Obama-McCain also be one?

JGabriel said...

Anon@9:38pm: (Note well, BULLSHIT ALERT) "Clinton in 1992 had a 30-point lead and Carter in 1976 had a 33-point lead."

And we'll assume that you're the same Anon genius who posted provably, and proven, misleading polling data at 5:04pm, then tried to argue on the basis of that now discredited post at 5:36pm.

Jackass.

.

Anonymous said...

Don't be a fool JGabriel, I took every poll from July 1 to July 22. No cherry picking here at all. I took them from RCP. Because you want to increase the universe of dates backwards and forwards, doesn't make your point. I took a solid three weeks of polls to show you where the race was in July of 2004.

Commentary: Obama will be surely revealed as a liberal. It won't be by calling him a liberal, but will be by revealing his actual positions, including increasing taxes as we are trying to avoid a recession, by refusing to increase the supply of oil and gas to lower gas prices, by revealing that he wants to repeal the Defense of Marriage Act ( 70%+ in favor ), by being weak on protecting the country, by endangering the troops by a sudden withdrawal, by being in favor of onerous gun control, by having a wife that compared gay rights to the struggle of blacks in Selma, AL. This is just the start.
Better get ready. If you think this is swift-boating, better start playing the violin because the S.S O'bama is going down.

Juris said...

Oh Anon, either you have no shame or you are the most dimwitted person on earth. Even your original selective 'three week' data capture still disproved your argument!

Anonymous said...

Anon - Your list of issues that will supposedly prove how "liberal" Obama is reads just like the GOP platform. The country as a whole is not on the far right, there are plenty of votes up for grabs in the middle.

Also, I'd love to see your source for that 70% approval rating for the DOMA...

JGabriel said...

Anon@1056p: Don't be a fool JGabriel, I took every poll from July 1 to July 22. No cherry picking here at all.

Then how is it that:

A) RCP lists two polls showing Bush leads in the time period of July 1 to July 22, and one poll tied, as listed above, yet you only list Kerry wins?

B) How is it that the same time period list 4 polls with +1 Kerry wins, yet your list only shows 1 of them, the rest all being +2 or higher?

C) How did it happen that RCP lists the NBC 7/6 poll as an 8% lead, yet your list shows it at 11%?

D) When someone wants to show where someone was in polling on a particular date, it's typical to use data preceding that date. Yet you chose to list data after the date in question, which - coincidentally enough - was marginally more supportive to your point, but not enough that you could post it without massaging and falsifying it. Why did you choose to use forward data? Especially if you were going to massage and falsify it anyway? Kind of dumb, isn't it?

Dude, you have no fucking credibility.


Anyone can check my post above, and/or go to the RCP 2004 Poll Archive, and check the data there to verify everything I've just stated.

Anyone who goes to RCP can verify that you actually had to work to make the changes listed above - you had to cut and paste them into a spreadsheet or text editor, and physically change the numbers and delete the inconvenient polls to post the list you have above @5:06pm. If it was just a flat cut & paste, it would look exactly like the data I posted @7:38pm.


So it logically follows that:

You're an incompetent, feckless, lying fuckwit, who falsifies data and pulls numbers out of his ass to mislead and to smear.


Take your quest for McCain Troll Points elsewhere and get the fuck outta here, asshole.

We have no fucking patience for people who make up, falsify, and lie about statistics here. Especially one so incompetent as to get so easily busted for it.

Nidjit.

.

Justin said...

The more this site becomes popular and a target for trolls and flamewars, the more this site is going to eventually need a registration system. It's a lot harder to have actual discussion about the analysis as the noise/signal ratio goes higher.

While the commentary on this site skews one way, the statistics shouldn't, and comments like "you're wrong, Obama is going to lose because he's a liberal who wants to raise taxes and hate the military" really don't do anything but get people to argue back and forth about nonsense and dissuade anyone from even trying to give a rational comment.

At the very least though, as an internet modification of the old quote - if they're trolling you, you must be doing something right.

Anonymous said...

Here is the f'ing link you stooge. You can't can't compare the 3-way race from 2004 to the 2-way race of today. If you did a modest amount of checking, you wouldn't prove yourself the fool.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/bush_vs_kerry_hth.html

JGabriel said...

Anon@5:48: "Here is the f'ing link you stooge. You can't can't compare the 3-way race from 2004 to the 2-way race of today.

Fine, you didn't massage the data. RCP regressed it to create head-to-head match-ups. You should have posted your source, and explained that they were regressed head-to-heads instead of the original polls.

That said, you still don't explain why you choose forward data instead of data leading up to the point in time under discussion.

And, frankly, yes, you should use data from the 3-way race, since the polls used here are also including data for "other", Barr, and/or Nader.

Finally, using your methodology, but adjusting the time frame appropriately, to data collected & released in the 22 days preceding July 1, we have:

CBS News/NY Times 6/23-6/27 44% 45% Kerry +1
Fox News 6/22-6/23 48% 42% Bush +6
CNN/Gallup/USA Today 6/21-6/23 49% 48% Bush +1
Gallup 6/9-6/30 47% 46% Bush +1
Wash Post/ABC News 6/17-6/20 45% 53% Kerry +8
IBD/TIPP 6/14-6/19 44% 44% TIE
IBD/TIPP 6/8-6/13 44% 43% Bush +1
Pew Research 6/3-6/13 48% 46% Bush +2
NPR/GQR 6/6-6/10 49% 48% Bush +1
Fox News 6/8-6/9 43% 45% Kerry +2

Which gives us 10 polls with an average *Bush* lead of 0.1%, still a dead heat. And still contradicting your contention that Kerry had a large lead at this point in time in 2004.

So, you didn't falsify data, but you still chose it selectively, or at best, incompetently.

Feckless & incompetent you may be, but I apologize for accusing you of massaging & falsifying the data. You did not. My apologies.

.

Alexander said...

Anon@5:48:

If you're going to use recalculated head-to-head numbers for the 2004 race, you obviously have to use head-to-head numbers for 2008 as well. Otherwise, you would be comparing apples and oranges, right?

Since I can't find such a recalculation on RCP, I did it myself. The current RCP average, including polls ending 06/22 and later, is Obama 47.6 - McCain 41.7. This becomes 53.3-46.7, a 6.6 lead, when recalculated as HTH percentages. Thus, the current RCP HTH average is actually higher than all but one of the individual July (sic!) polls you list.

Looking at individual polls, Obama's HTH lead in the polls used in the average ranges from 4.3 to 14.4 points, compared to the +1 to +11 span in your July list, and the -6 to +8 span in JGabriel's June list.

Also, note that the RCP average covers a rather short time frame. The Newsweek poll was just dropped. The 15 point lead there would have translated to a 17.2 head-to-head lead. Kerry never had a better head-to-head result than the +11 in the 7/6 NBC poll (of only 504 RV). Kerry's second-best HTH results were two +8 polls.

Draw your own conclusions.

PGL said...

You're not qualified to be on Faux News unless you are a hack. But this is good news for me as I don't watch Faux News and so I'll have to endure Lanny's whiny voice that much less more!

ken said...

I agree with some of the remarks above... this site has now become too popular for anonymous posting. I love watching people debate the meaningfulness of 'margins of error', and discussing electioneering strategies, but have no desire to listen to extreme spin or listen to partisans shout about policy. I go to other places for that! There's one particularly obnoxious smeer upthread that should really be deleted. The comments sections really were a better read a week or two back. Otherwise, love the site!

asmodeus said...

So what you're sayin: Lanny Davis=idiot?

Anonymous said...

Uh, if I remember correctly, exit polling (that's AFTER the election) showed Kerry winning many of the states he lost and nationally with a 2-4% edge. We see how that turned out. You nutjobs can spin this how you want, but Kerry was polled with a strong edge both before AND after the election...and still LOST. I think Obama should be concerned.

Leaking Geek said...

Couple of things folks:

1) Lanny Davis is a blathering Clinton shill. Ignore him, as his signing on with FAUX NEWS should have alerted anyone with the sense to come out of a thunderstorm that he is irrelevant.

2) Take a deep breath where polls are concerned. Obama's current lead is a really good sign, and this is 08, not 04. With a President below 30% approval, an economy in the throughs of a recession (oops I said the R word), and a 5 year unpopular war half a world away, the signs are all positive for an insurgent candidate to be able to win the White House.

3) All of these Republican shills thrashing about on identity politics will show that they are a desperate, damaged brand with no new ideas. And there will always be a swath of the electorate that will vote based on this nonsense, but it is an ever shrinking group.

All in all, I say, Know Hope!

Alexander said...

Sorry, I might have to correct myself here. My previous post was somewhat confused.

Looking closer at the two RCP 2004 poll lists it seems as if the "head-to-head race" version actually isn't what I first thought it was: a recalculated version of the "3-way race" excluding both undecideds and Nader votes. Rather, the "head-to-head race" version lists results when a two-party candidate question was asked, i.e. not including Nader among the alternatives.

So it turns out I was comparing different kinds of apple jam.

(Interestingly, though, the two polls taken during this period in which Kerry wasn't in the lead, one a tie and the other +4 Bush, did not include a two-way choice question, and because of this absent from the "head-to-head" list used by our anonymous friend.)

Like Jgabriel points out, it should of course be noted that we're comparing June 2008 to July 2004. But I can actually see the point of comparing Obama's polling with Kerry's highest-polling period.

Looking for the most relevant comparison of 2004 and 2008 polling (leaving aside the time frame question), I've now tried doing for 2004 what I did above for 2008, calculating the candidates' shares of the two-party vote when a two-way question is asked. This weeds out the undecideds.

This operation, however, won't change the numbers much. For the July time frame used, we get a Kerry lead between 1.1 and 11.3 points in share of two-party vote, averaging 4.2 points. This Kerry high-point is still notably lower than Obama's lead in an equivalent calculation using the current RCP Average, which as I wrote above is 6.6 points.

But it's also well worth noting that if we instead use RCP's three-way polling statistics from the same July 2004 period (which also means not excluding the two most Bush-friendly polls) we get a span in the candidates' share of the two-party vote from a 4.3 point Bush lead to a 8.9 point Kerry lead, with the mean result a 2.2 point Kerry lead.

Anonymous said...

What all of you left wing environmental wacko nut jobs fail to realize is that $6.00 a gallon gasoline will bring out the silent majority. Second, WHO GIVES A DAMN ABOUT WHO IS AHEAD in JUNE. The real story is who is ahead on 11/4. Third, this is a state race, and if you look at many of the polls, MCCAIN the BRAVE is ahead or just a couple of points behind BARACK the MUSLIM in enough states to win 270 EV.

Any State MCCAIN the Brave is behind by 2 points on 11/4, he will win by 5 points over Barack the MUSLIM.

As for you left wing, environmental wacko nut jobs, please envision those oil derricks off the west coast and east coast and in Alaska.
I can't wait, can you?

MCCAIN the BRAVE

Anonymous said...

Taking a look at RCP average, it seems to me that OBAMA really only gained about a 2 point edge after HRC dropped out of the race. What I see now is an approximately 3 point drop for McCain. Giving the 5 point edge in the average. This is all just poll noise. Given the state of the economy, the world and gasoline prices, it seems we can have another shift at any time. This lead is hardly worth mentioning.

FNJ said...

FNJ
Point of fact:
From 7/1 to 8/5, 32 polls in 2004 gave John Kerry an average of 2% lead (slightly larger).
Also, with polls conducted entirely during the first week of August, 2004, Kerry lead in 5 polls by an average of exactly 4%.
Source:http://www.realclearpolitics.com/Presidential_04/bush_vs_kerry_historical.html
Obama's lead is several points highter, but far from insurmountable

I love this site, and the generally thoughtful comments.
It's hard to leave one's politcal inclinations aside; however,when ideas are data driven, rather than politically driven, they carry far more weight.

JGabriel said...

Anon@9:29am: "What all of you left wing environmental wacko nut jobs fail to realize is that $6.00 a gallon gasoline will bring out the silent majority."

So Nixon's "silent majority" will come out on 11/4 to vote *for* the same Republican party that brought them $6.00/gallon gas?

Riiight.

.

JGabriel said...

Anon@9:29am: As for you left wing, environmental wacko nut jobs, please envision those oil derricks off the west coast and east coast and in Alaska. I can't wait, can you?

Ah, I can see it now. It's like a 19th century painting, a gray-green stormy sky highlighted with flashes of violet, the green seas swelling and surging violently, a little to left of center the waves crash over the stern and fo'c'sle of the...

Exxon/Mobil Oil Derrick Platform?

Dude, that's strange sense of beauty you've got there.

.

Anonymous said...

Kerry never lead by more than 2% from june until the election. Proof,

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/Presidential_04/chart3way.html

Anonymous said...

Polls don't matter until about the second week in September. We're all political junkies to be posting on a political blog. The average swing-voting American certainly is not. They won't start forming opinions until after both conventions.

We,re 4 months to the election. Four months before Barack's game changing win in Iowa, I'm sure half of Iowa voters never heard of the guy. Polls shifted significantly once voters started paying attention in late November, and December. The same will happen in the General.

Middle of September, we'll have a good idea where the country stands.

Anonymous said...

Gabriel

Ah, I can see it now. It's like a 19th century painting, a gray-green stormy sky highlighted with flashes of violet, the green seas swelling and surging violently, a little to left of center the waves crash over the stern and fo'c'sle of the...

Exxon/Mobil Oil Derrick Platform?

Dude, that's strange sense of beauty you've got there.

Gas-$2.00 a gallon January 2007-Democrats take over Congress-July 2, 2007-Gas $4.09 a gallon.

January 2007-Barrel of Oil $60-Democrats take over congress-July 2007-Barrel of Oil $144.00 a barrel- what do Democrats say, Wind Power, Solar Power-Oil goes up another dollar!!!!!

I tell you what Gabriel-get your facts straight-Millions will get out and vote against Hussein because he is like you, you would rather put your lips against your tailpipe and blow than put gasoline in your tank.

ITS THE DRILLING STUPID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pete Kent said...

I know this is an Obama hyping blog, but allow me to point out the problems are not really McCain's but Obama's.

He has two significant problems: First he is widely viewed as inexperienced and in fact lacking the experience to be president. Two, he has actually got himself tacked onto the wrong side of the issues: Gas Prices and Iraq. He can never reverse course on drilling, I suspect, but he will wind up adopting a position on Iraq that is indistinguishable from Bush/McCain b/c conditions on the ground there both militarily and politically have shifted so dramatically that he risks loss of credibility if he continues to cater to the anti-war crowd above all else.

Worse, Iraq has oil reserves that rival Saudi Arabia's (so the common wisdom goes) and under the present circumstances with everyone focused on the price at the pump he cannot be seen to abandon those resources to Al-Qaeda and our enemies.

Therein lies the rub! Damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. Of course he can’t abandon the war without revealing himself to be just as phony as so many have claimed.

On a whole host of issues Obama appears now to be running for Bush's Third Term: Guns, Death Penalty, Faith-Based Initiatives, and FISA. What's next? Privatizing social security?

Obama's stated position on the Bush tax cuts is virtually the same as McCain’s, with a difference only over the smallest sliver of the population -- those earning over $250,000. This is akin to the difference he had with Hillary over universal healthcare.
You know, I am beginning to like the guy!

JDK said...

If Lanny Davis could make an "August" surprise happen, he would.

If the race is at all tight in the first week of August, he'll be on the TV circuit saying stuff like "I told you so, HC would have been a better nominee. (Unless, of course, these posts shame him in to shutting up.)

There are still hard core deep connected Clintonistas hoping for the August surprise or planning for 2012.

Note, for example, Clinton use of the word "Caucasian" in her eventual concession speech. Probably inserted by her husband at the last minute, because I can't fathom how having spent time with Moynihan, she could have used such a word, except as a very very subtle code for stirring it up in Southern Ohio and Northern Florida and the whole Ozarks to Appalachia and the South band of "American/United States Ancestry Question Responders". (Of course, it doesn't really matter that much to Obama's electoral strategy and general forward thinking vision thing but the backward looking Clinton machine doesn't really care about that anyway.)

There's also some backroom groussing about Obama's connection with Zbig Brzezinski (basically overplaying it) to poison certain Florida demographics.

On the other hand, the Clintons say they're behind Obama, so let's take them at their word. Win Arkansas for Obama, then we'll know your claim for unity was real. As the old dimwit (may he RIP) used to say: "Trust, but verified."

wafflesmakesaspeech said...

Waffles can't seem to get a real lead and the bebe boyz are sweating.

Olberdouche tried to sell the outliers, but no one bought that brand of bullsh*t. Olberboyy must be pretty pissed that Waffles cost him MTP.

Hey, I've got an idea...get Lanny's blog shut down. You know...suppress free speech. It's the O'Bambi way.

michael said...

damn, the muslim-hating right wingers have discovered the site. Nate, I think you should do what some of the other message boards do. Have some volunteer mods to clean it up and keep the hate and slander out. The site is supposed to be for thoughtful and reasoned analysis, and phrases like "left-wing whackos" or brandishing the name Hussein like it is an unanswerable closing argumentnand is game, set and match in some 2nd grade game of doing the dozens really cheapens it. It is pathetic. I wonder who these hateful and hating fools think they are swaying with such loathsome "discourse".

A good first step is at least to require registration. These Muslim and Black-hating trolls are ruining the site. Hey trolls. There are so many sites where you can spew your venom. Can you go post on lucianne or townhall or even wapo (where they don't even moderate) and leave this site to folks who are interested in discussing polls. I think another rule should be you need to be able to count to 20 without taking your shoes and socks off in order to post here. That would pretty much eliminate most of the trolls right there.

Anonymous said...

I don't know if anyone is still reading this site, but I think there are several things that are structurally different about Obama's lead - forget issues.

1) Kerry never led on betting sites even when he had that lead in July

2) Obama's favorability ratings are much higher than Kerry's ever were

3) Obama experienced a pretty bruising primary fight Kerry didn't have - that brought out some pretty bad things

Anonymous said...

Maybe he didn't get shamed by JDK
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/07/12/sticking-a-wrench-in-the_n_112303.html

信次 said...

情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,

平平 said...

^^ nice blog!! ^@^

徵信, 徵信, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 感情挽回, 婚姻挽回, 挽回婚姻, 挽回感情, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信, 捉姦, 徵信公司, 通姦, 通姦罪, 抓姦, 抓猴, 捉猴, 捉姦, 監聽, 調查跟蹤, 反跟蹤, 外遇問題, 徵信, 捉姦, 女人徵信, 女子徵信, 外遇問題, 女子徵信, 徵信社, 外遇, 徵信公司, 徵信網, 外遇蒐證, 抓姦, 抓猴, 捉猴, 調查跟蹤, 反跟蹤, 感情挽回, 挽回感情, 婚姻挽回, 挽回婚姻, 外遇沖開, 抓姦, 女子徵信, 外遇蒐證, 外遇, 通姦, 通姦罪, 贍養費, 徵信, 徵信社, 抓姦, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信公司, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信公司, 徵信社, 徵信公司, 女人徵信, 外遇

徵信, 徵信網, 徵信社, 徵信網, 外遇, 徵信, 徵信社, 抓姦, 徵信, 女人徵信, 徵信社, 女人徵信社, 外遇, 抓姦, 徵信公司, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 女人徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 女子徵信社, 女子徵信社, 女子徵信社, 女子徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社,

平平 said...

^^ nice blog!! thanks a lot! ^^

徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 外遇, 抓姦, 離婚, 外遇,離婚,

徵信, 外遇, 離婚, 徵信社, 徵信, 外遇, 抓姦, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 外遇, 徵信社, 徵信, 外遇, 抓姦, 徵信社, 征信, 征信, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 征信, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信, 外遇, 抓姦, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社,

kelly said...

帶著簡單的行囊,來花蓮旅遊走走,順便體驗一下各種花蓮民宿帶給你的不同感受,品嚐道地花蓮美食的特別花蓮小吃風味,也可以騎著單車來品味花蓮 ,呼吸著新鮮的花蓮空氣,所以來花蓮住宿就帶著輕鬆的心情吧!!花蓮黃頁擁有各種不同風格的花蓮民宿,歡迎您來花蓮旅遊放鬆心情體驗美麗的花蓮民宿!!

酒店上班請找艾葳 said...

艾葳酒店經紀公司提供專業的酒店經紀, 酒店上班小姐,八大行業,酒店兼職,傳播妹,或者想要到打工兼差打工,兼差,或者八大行業,酒店兼職,想去酒店上班, 日式酒店,制服酒店,ktv酒店,禮服店,整天穿得水水漂漂的,還是想去制服店上班小姐,水水們如果想要擁有打工工作、晚上兼差工作兼差打工假日兼職兼職工作酒店兼差兼差打工兼差日領工作晚上兼差工作酒店工作酒店上班酒店打工兼職兼差兼差工作酒店上班等,想了解酒店相關工作特種行業內容,想兼職工作日領假日兼職兼差打工、或晚班兼職想擁有快速賺錢又有保障的工作嗎???又可以現領請找專業又有保障的艾葳酒店經紀公司!

艾葳酒店經紀是合法的公司工作環境高雅時尚,無業績壓力,無脫秀無喝酒壓力,高層次會員制客源,工作輕鬆,可日領現領
一般的酒店經紀只會在水水們第一次上班和領薪水時出現而已,對水水們的上班安全一點保障都沒有!艾葳酒店經紀公司的水水們上班時全程媽咪作陪,不需擔心!只提供最優質的酒店上班,酒店上班,酒店打工環境、上班條件給水水們。心動嗎!? 趕快來填寫你的酒店上班履歷表

水水們妳有缺現領、有兼職缺錢卡奴的煩腦嗎?想到日本留學缺錢嗎?妳是傳播妹??想要擁有高時薪又輕鬆的夜間兼職工作,打工機會和,假日打工,假日兼職賺錢的機會嗎??想實現夢想卻又缺錢沒錢嗎!??
艾葳酒店台北酒店經紀招兵買馬!!徵專業的酒店打工,想要去酒店的水水,想要短期日領,酒店日領,禮服酒店,制服店,酒店經紀,ktv酒店,便服店,酒店工作,禮服店,酒店小姐,酒店經紀人,
等相關服務 幫您快速的實現您的夢想~!!

freefun0616 said...

酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店小姐兼職,
便服酒店經紀,
酒店打工經紀,
制服酒店工作,
專業酒店經紀,
合法酒店經紀,
酒店暑假打工,
酒店寒假打工,
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店小姐兼職,
便服酒店工作,
酒店打工經紀,
制服酒店經紀,
專業酒店經紀,
合法酒店經紀,
酒店暑假打工,
酒店寒假打工,
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店小姐兼職,
便服酒店工作,
酒店打工經紀,
制服酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,

,