New numbers from CNN reveal that Americans think both Barack Obama and John McCain are flip-floppers -- but like them just fine anyway:
Sixty-one percent of voters believe that McCain has changed his mind for political reasons; 37 percent do not. Fifty-nine percent of voters believe that Obama also shifts positions with the political winds; 38 percent do not.I'm moderately surprised that McCain's number is as high as it is, since the media has tended not to highlight his flip-flops. I'm not one of those people, by the way, that thinks the media is constantly biased in John McCain's direction. I think Obama gets more of the bad from the media, but also more of the good.
That's a change from 2004, according to Holland. “One of the reasons President Bush won reelection in 2004 was that only one-third of voters believed he would change his policy positions because of changing political dynamics. Most voters, on the other hand, believed that John Kerry was a flip-flopper.”
But in any event, this underscores one of the points I had made before: John McCain is not seen as having the higher ground on the flip-flops issue in the same way that George W. Bush was. Nor is it clear that being labeled as a flip-flopper is necessarily some kind of death-knell for Obama (or McCain for that matter): both candidates were regarded favorably in this poll overall.
That's not to say there isn't any danger on this point to Barack Obama. I think his flip-flop numbers will go up some, and I think that might harm his approval numbers by a point or two. On balance, however, I tend to side with Noam Schieber: John Kerry's problem wasn't that people saw him as a flip-flopper, it's that people saw him as sort of a poseur. Likewise, with Mitt Romney, the flip-flop label really stuck in the primaries -- partly because Romney has changed his positioning on a lot of issues (there's a fascinating argument that Romney could have won the primaries if he'd run as a competent, moderate reformer) -- but also because people just don't like the guy.
Another difference with John Kerry is that he committed a gaffe that compounded his reputation for flip-flopping: namely, by saying the words "I actually did vote for the $87 billion before I voted against it". A flip-flop is not a gaffe; it is the opposite of a gaffe, something done intentionally with an eye toward improving one's electoral standing. But Kerry's sloppy phrasing was a gaffe, and one of the more damaging utterances since "Read My Lips: No New Taxes".
Finally, Kerry's alleged flip-flop on the Iraq War was not toward the center, but toward the left. It's harder to criticize a candidate when they're taking on a position that is more in line with your own. Moreover, it appeared as though Kerry had been opportunistic twice over: first in voting for the war in the first place, when most of the mainline liberals in the Senate hadn't --and then by reversing his position later on.

69 comments
Obama really bungled today's news cycle with the Iraq clarifications.
Thankfully it's July 3rd and nobody will remember this on Monday.
if Obama continues to be just like any other politician will it hurt the youthful enthusiasm of his minions or are they immune to any criticism at all?
I would agree that any time you clarify a clarification, you are probably having a bad day.
This really confirms some of my prior thoughts.
Remember Americans' #1 complaint about Bush:
"He's not a flip-flopper", usually phrased more like "He is too stubborn to ever admit he made a mistake"
I'm not sure how much this will hurt Obama. As the poll makes clear, McCain has flipflopped himself. Frankly, I think its impossible to be in the Senate and not flipflop a time or two. I suspect this is why Senators are rarely elected. One will be this time though.
This time, I don't think its going to be an issue.
1. McCain is just as (if not more) guilty.
2. Americans are willing to see more flexibility after the Bush disaster.
Anytime you are for confiscating guns, but are now against consfiscating guns
Anytime your are against NAFTA, but are now for NAFTA
Anytime time you are for a hate spewing, race ranting preacher for 20 years, but are now against a hate spewing, race ranting preacher.
Anytime you are for public financing in a presidential race, but are now against public financing
Anytime you are against the death penalty but are now for the death penalty
Anytime you are for the immediate withdrawal of troops from Iraq, but are now against the withdrawal
You are having a bad day, and the American People will have to ask themselves, "Who do you want in the oval office sitting at that desk when the military comes in and says, "Mr. President, Iran just dropped a nuclear bomb on Israel, What do we do?"
I think at some point this narrative will simply fall apart. In 2004 we had an argument that went along the lines of: "This is the right position. That is the wrong position. Kerry keeps flopping in between them to gain popularity."
In this case (and several others going on right now), the Republican pressers are trying to force Obama into a catch-22. "Look! Obama hasn't been to Iraq. He should go with McCain!", then Obama says he's going to Iraq: "Look! Obama's making a political stunt out going to Iraq! And he flipflopped!"
That's the most obvious one, but there are other similar ones. Instead of making it look like McCain is showing Obama the right way to do things, it makes him look more political and unprincipled. He would have gotten far more mileage, for example, of congratulating Obama about going and then taking credit for changing his mind, making it look like he's the one calling the shots.
Might have rambled there. But I hope you get my point.
Anon:
When did he ever say he was for "confiscating guns".
When did he ever say he was "for NAFTA"
When did he say he was "against the withdrawal"
Frankly, your problem is that you want to summarize complex positions as being the most extreme positions you can think of. Then you go back and reread the positions and see that they are more centrist than you thought. He must of flipflopped because he didn't live up to your cartoon character version of him.
He has grown up adult centrist views on all of these issues. They aren't simple issues and can't be summarized in single sentences. He hasn't changed his position at all on them.
Just because he isn't the extremist you seem to want him to be, doesn't mean he is a flip flopper.
"Refine" will be the new "flip-flop" in Republican ads. This issue won't be buried by the holiday weekend. It will be highlighted by his own campaign when Obama visits Iraq and likely gives a major speech "clarifying" his position. "I've always believed Iraq was a mistake but now I believe [like John McCain] that we must look at conditions on the ground and draw down troops as quickly as possible without destabilizing the progress that's been gained."
It's politically the right position to take, but it will outrage the netroots, and it will make Obama look like he's following McCain's advice in foreign policy and will give those who were backing Obama because of Iraq a reason to take another look at McCain or third-party candidates.
he hasn't changed his position? wow - that's a staggering statement. I had not previously believed the conventional criticism of Obama supporters (cult of personality devoted kool-aid drinkers with a messianic view the candidate) but this sort of reaction is making me rethink - maybe there is something to the stereotype -
'Flip-flopper' just shows that certain people are still fighting the last election. It's a losing tactic for the Republicans, simply because McCain has done it so many times more. at absolutely best it might depress support for Obama a little, on account of his 'new politics' message getting worn away. Is it an election-swinging message? I can't see how it could be. You might as well accuse him of being too cranky. McCain's just not in a position to work that angle.
Theres another point on the flipflop question that I raised before and would like to raise again:
Swing voters are flipfloppers themselves.
Anybody that routinely changes from one party to the other must have a somewhat complicated view of the world and see things in shades of gray. I find it difficult to believe that they are that judgmental about centrists taking nuanced positions when they themselves are centrists with nuanced positions.
Nate:
Do you have any polling data on how much "flipflopping" really hurt Kerry? I've always believed that it wasn't flipflopping or swift boats. It was 9/11. It was the first election after 9/11 and centrists still had fairly warm feelings of Bush's reaction, plus were susceptible to the fear card. Frankly, I'm sort of surprised Kerry came close that year. Anyway to judge exactly what swing voters were thinking.
"I've always believed Iraq was a mistake but ... I believe ... that we must look at conditions on the ground and draw down troops as quickly as possible without destabilizing the progress that's been gained."
When do you believe this was not Obama's position?
because he isn't the extremist you seem to want him to be, doesn't mean he is a flip flopper.
July 3, 2008 5:12 PM
Duh,
JeffC, please take your head from where the sun doesn't shine, BHO should be nicknamed the rubber band man. He makes so many twists and turns he will have to put a neck brace on to keep from getting whiplash.
You have buried your head in the sand about this guy and refuse to see him for what he really is, an extremely unqualified, untested candidate who has no idea what his position is on any single issue
Your response that OBAMA has grown up centrist views that can't be written down in one sentence is absolute BS.
Tell that to Joe 6-pack in Michigan
and he will ask the same thing-for Nafta or against, for gun control or against; for public financing or against;for hate spewing preachers or against
Once again, the net contribution of Anonymous posters is several clicks poorer than people willing to sign off on their opinions. Nate, is there any chance of stopping the anonymity? It invites a kind of talking-point spam.
I submit "ken" is just as anonymous as anonymous -
I'm the Koolaid drinker????
Your post said that Obama was for "confiscating guns", "against NAFTA" and "against withdrawal".
I challenged you to show me where he ever said any of these things. You couldn't do it so you just called me a name.
I'm a centrist myself. I always viewed him as a centrist because I actually read his policies during the primaries. They contained a great deal more nuance and centrism than was generally reported.
Everybody wanted to see him as an extreme liberal cartoon character. Liberals because they loved the idea of a liberal president and conservatives because they loved the idea of running against a liberal.
I've always said that he was a moderate. Now you are saying that he is changing from these extreme liberal positions.
"confiscating guns"
"against NAFTA"
"against Withdrawal"
Prove it or else you are the koolaid drinker for falling into a stereotype.
I think there is more than one anonymous posting JeffC - the two posts you're referencing look like they were simultaneous - in any event - don't everybody get all heated up and take things personally, keep it civil or 538 may just ditch the comments
I agree with the not getting heated up-I enjoy reading you left wingers stepping all over your tongues.
If BHO is a moderate, then George Bush is the greatest President this country has ever seen.
Come on dude-He was against NAFTA, but sent a Toadie to Canada to tell them he was really for it
His campaign was all for Confiscation of guns, until he ran for President
He was all for a rapid withdrawal from Iraq, now he is not
He was all for Public financing, now he is not
Face it, he is morphing into a new species right before our eyes.
I'm civil. Sorry to seem heated.
I do want any anonymous to tell me why a moderate nuanced position automatically equals a flip flop.
I wonder whether other moderates buy it. Remember, we need moderate votes. Moderates are by definition nuanced.
I challenged him to produce evidence that Obama had flipflopped on the issues and he couldn't.
His campaign was all for "confiscation of guns". No it wasn't!! He always supported the second amendment with the right of local governments to make sensible restrictions. Who are you trying to kid?
NAFTA is a very complicated deal. He has always said that he wanted to amend not end it.
He continues to support withdrawing 1 to 2 brigades a month from Iraq. He will listen to his generals advice about how to do it but ultimately he's the boss. I challenge you to show me when he has ever said anything different from that.
He did flipflop on accepting public financing. All candidates (incl. McCain) have a couple flipflops.
Anon: 'I submit "ken" is just as anonymous as anonymous'
Not really. You can follow my comments through the thread, and through the site, whereas Anonymous posters can use that camouflage to hide inconsistancies in their arguments. Or, to put it another way, their flip-flops :-)
but if I call myself Andy or Ken - who can tell which Andy or Ken I am ...and if I call myslef Andy AND Ken - I can flipflop at will
JSM has flip-flopped more than Barack "Secret Jew Muslim Osama bin Saddam Hussein Black Guy Who Plays Basketball Communist Fidel Castro Liberal Allah Allah Muslim" Obama ever did.
I wonder sometimes if it wouldn't be a good idea for Nate to eliminate comments altogether.
I think it's a terrible idea to eliminate comments on this site.
While we're at it...
John McCain voted against the Bush tax cuts, and now wants to extend them.
He favored an amnesty for illegal immigrants, backed away from it during the primary, and then started backing towards it during the general election.
He's in favor of a cap-and-trade policy for greenhouse gas emissions, but when asked about the policy thinks it's a bad idea.
He opposed a bill to restore the Everglades, then did a photo-op in the Everglades saying he wanted to protect them.
He opposed a bill for veteran's benefits, then took credit for it when it passed.
I don't think that the insider, process type stories have that big an impact on the overall voter. Frankly, I think the moderate swing voter could care less who the campaign manager is.
Still I wonder if the McCain campaign made a mistake in launching the flipflop aggressive during the same news cycle that the McCain campaign makeover was the other big story. Its not exactly synergistic.
Boy, did they get lucky with the timing in Colombia though.
You might want to change the color of Indiana on the left to purple.
"Do you have any polling data on how much "flipflopping" really hurt Kerry? I've always believed that it wasn't flipflopping or swift boats. It was 9/11. It was the first election after 9/11 and centrists still had fairly warm feelings of Bush's reaction, plus were susceptible to the fear card. Frankly, I'm sort of surprised Kerry came close that year."
I was going to state this. Undecided voters in a an election featuring an incumbent always break towards the incumbent in the end.
In 2004 people were still frightened and risk adverse. They were former Bush supporters who were having doubts about him and his war policies, but were willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, swayed by things like the "Wolves" ads.
Notice that after the election the public was visibly waiting to see if Bush "got the message" that they had reluctantly re-elected him and hoped he would change course. Of course, he went on a binge of unprecedented hubris and immediately announced that he had a huge MANDATE and intended to use it -- despite the narrowness of the election which came down to 150,000 votes in Ohio. And to top it off he then tried to privatize social security.
His numbers tanked and never recovered and in 2006 he got a "thumping" in the Congressional election, leaving the Republican party in its current state of disarray and shrunken status.
I do think you're right, Jeff; they're called swing voters for a reason. We partisans look at the candidates and, because of our identification with a party and an ideology, can quite easily pick between the two. But there are some voters out there who still won't know who they're voting for until Election Day.
Some of that is probably because they don't have primaries to participate in, but I think a lot of it is a product of their being true pragmatists.
And then, of course, there are a few voters who will make their choice based on which canddidate wore a blue tie at the second debate...
McCain’s Flip Flops
* McCain supported the drilling moratorium; now he’s against it.
* McCain strongly opposes a windfall-tax on oil company profits. Three weeks earlier, he was perfectly comfortable with the idea.
* McCain thought Bush’s warrantless-wiretap program circumvented the law; now he believes the opposite.
* McCain defended privatizing Social Security. Now he says he’s against privatization (though he actually still supports it.)
* McCain wanted to change the Republican Party platform to protect abortion rights in cases of rape and incest. Now he doesn’t.
* McCain thought the estate tax was perfectly fair. Now he believes the opposite.
* He opposed indefinite detention of terrorist suspects. When the Supreme Court reached the same conclusion, he called it one of the worst decisions in the history of this country.
* McCain said he would not impose a litmus test on any nominee. He used to promise the opposite.
* McCain believes the telecoms should be forced to explain their role in the administration’s warrantless surveillance program as a condition for retroactive immunity. He used to believe the opposite.
* McCain supported storing spent nuclear fuel at Yucca Mountain in Nevada. Now he believes the opposite.
* McCain supported moving towards normalization of relations with Cuba. Now he believes the opposite.
* McCain believed the U.S. should engage in diplomacy with Hamas. Now he believes the opposite.
*McCain believed the U.S. should engage in diplomacy with Syria. Now he believes the opposite.
* He argued the NRA should not have a role in the Republican Party’s policy making. Now he believes the opposite.
* McCain supported his own lobbying-reform legislation from 1997. Now he doesn’t.
* He wanted political support from radical televangelists like John Hagee and Rod Parsley. Now he doesn’t.
* McCain supported the Lieberman/Warner legislation to combat global warming. Now he doesn’t.
* McCain pledged in February 2008 that he would not, under any circumstances, raise taxes. Specifically, McCain was asked if he would, he said read my lips, no new taxes, no matter what? Referring to George H.W. Bush’s 1988 pledge. No new taxes, McCain responded. Two weeks later, McCain said, I’m not making a read my lips statement, in that I will not raise taxes.
* McCain is both for and against a rogue state rollback as a focus of his foreign policy vision.
* McCain says he considered and did not consider joining John Kerry’s Democratic ticket in 2004.
* In 1998, he championed raising cigarette taxes to fund programs to cut underage smoking, insisting that it would prevent illnesses and provide resources for public health programs. Now, McCain opposes a $0.61-per-pack tax increase, won’t commit to supporting a regulation bill he’s co-sponsoring, and has hired Philip Morris former lobbyist as his senior campaign adviser.
* McCain has changed his economic worldview on multiple occasions.
* McCain has changed his mind about a long-term U.S. military presence in Iraq on multiple occasions.
* McCain is both for and against attacking Barack Obama over his former pastor at his former church.
* McCain believes Americans are both better and worse off than they were before Bush took office.
* McCain is both for and against earmarks for Arizona.
* McCain believes his endorsement from radical televangelist John Hagee was both a good and bad idea.
* McCain’s first mortgage plan was premised on the notion that homeowners facing foreclosure shouldn’t be rewarded for acting irresponsibly. His second mortgage plan took largely the opposite position.
* McCain vowed, if elected, to balance the federal budget by the end of his first term. Soon after, he decided he would no longer even try to reach that goal.
* In February 2008, McCain reversed course on prohibiting waterboarding.
* McCain used to champion the Law of the Sea convention, even volunteering to testify on the treaty’s behalf before a Senate committee. Now he opposes it.
* McCain was a co-sponsor of the DREAM Act, which would grant legal status to illegal immigrants kids who graduate from high school. Now he’s against it.
* On immigration policy in general, McCain announced in February 2008 that he would vote against his own legislation.
* In 2006, McCain sponsored legislation to require grassroots lobbying coalitions to reveal their financial donors. In 2007, after receiving feedback on the proposal, McCain told far-right activist groups that he opposes his own measure.
* McCain said before the war in Iraq, We will win this conflict. We will win it easily. Four years later, McCain said he knew all along that the war in Iraq war was probably going to be long and hard and tough.
* McCain said he was the greatest critic of Rumsfeld’s failed Iraq policy. In December 2003, McCain praised the same strategy as a mission accomplished. In March 2004, he said, I’m confident we’re on the right course. In December 2005, he said, Overall, I think a year from now, we will have made a fair amount of progress if we stay the course.
* McCain went from saying he would not support repeal of Roe v. Wade to saying the exact opposite.
* McCain went from saying gay marriage should be allowed, to saying gay marriage shouldn’t be allowed.
* McCain criticized TV preacher Jerry Falwell as an agent of intolerance in 2002, but then decided to cozy up to the man who said Americans deserved the 9/11 attacks.
* McCain used to oppose Bush’s tax cuts for the very wealthy, but he reversed course in February.
* On a related note, he said 2005 that he opposed the tax cuts because they were ‘too tilted to the wealthy. By 2007, he denied ever having said this, and insisted he opposed the cuts because of increased government spending.
* In 2000, McCain accused Texas businessmen Sam and Charles Wyly of being corrupt, spending dirty money to help finance Bush’s presidential campaign. McCain not only filed a complaint against the Wylys for allegedly violating campaign finance law, he also lashed out at them publicly. In April, McCain reached out to the Wyly for support.
* McCain supported a major campaign-finance reform measure that bore his name. In June 2007, he abandoned his own legislation.
* McCain opposed a holiday to honor Martin Luther King, Jr., before he supported it.
* McCain was against presidential candidates campaigning at Bob Jones University before he was for it.
* McCain was anti-ethanol. Now he’s pro-ethanol.
* McCain was both for and against state promotion of the Confederate flag.
* McCain decided in 2000 that he didn’t want anything to do with former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, believing he would taint the image of the Straight Talk Express. Kissinger is now the Honorary Co-Chair for his presidential campaign in New York.
I was going to make a joke about all the McCain spammers getting their points for the "blog outreach" program. But then I decided I'd rather educate instead.
See, here's the thing about the flip-flopper label. Accepting that it's far more applicable to McCain than Obama, it's just not that relevant in this election. In 2004 Bush pretty much ignored the center and used the war to bring out the base. It was an effective strategy--in conjunction with the swiftboating--because a lot of people identified with the Republicans at the time. So, demonizing Kerry worked because all they had to do was drive up turnout.
The problem for McCain this cycle is that no one wants to be associated with the Republicans. They've spent the last eight years proving themselves to be a bunch of corrupt, war-mongering, sexual deviants who'll destroy our economy and national security just to make a quick buck. So, demonizing Obama and driving out the base isn't going to win this cycle--particularly when the Republicans have a candidate who half their remaining base hates.
So, my point is that they can keep trying to make this label stick, but it's just a waste of time. All it really does in this election is highlight McCain a shameless opportunist and the worse flip-flopper.
This is a very serious blog about what is really happening. I am ashamed of those who wish to take it over for their own political views.
Save the vitrol for your wives or your own blogs and spare the rest of us who are here to learn.
I'm not one of those people, by the way, that thinks the media is constantly biased in John McCain's direction
That simply means that you're one of those who is uninformed; Media Matters has documented that bias in depth.
I am ashamed
No one cares.
Save the vitrol for your wives
Shove it up your ass, hun.
I think the "Kerry's a flip-flopper but you know where you stand with Bush" meme was just a subcategory of the "Incumbent vs. Challenger" category.
The burden of proof is on the challenger. Not only has he got to demonstrate that the incumbent isn't doing a good enough job; he's also got to prove that he can do a better job.
All the incumbent's really got to do, assuming his record isn't horrendous, is plant reasonable doubt about the challenger. The "flip-flopper" meme did that to a tee: "Hey, you may not think I'm great, but this guy's worse."
I'm not sure that works in an open race when you're dealing with two relatively unknown quantities.
If BHO is a moderate, then George Bush is the greatest President this country has ever seen.
Come on dude-He was against NAFTA, but sent a Toadie to Canada to tell them he was really for it
His campaign was all for Confiscation of guns, until he ran for President
He was all for a rapid withdrawal from Iraq, now he is not
He was all for Public financing, now he is not
Face it, he is morphing into a new species right before our eyes.
McCain talking points that have no relation to reality.
All the incumbent's really got to do, assuming his record isn't horrendous, is plant reasonable doubt about the challenger.
It's not hard when the media works for your party.
Both DailyHowler and Media Matters has documented this bias at length. Media Matters' David Brock was part of the beast and knows whereof he speaks.
"morphing into a new species" also seems to have the subtext of "black guy with a funny name= some sort of alien from another planet". I might be reading too much into this but I have seen Republican bloggers really try this often.
McCain’s Flip Flops ...
Yeah, but other than that ...
Nate:
Let me add my voice to those suggesting that it is time to ban anonymous posting.
The anonymous posters have been responsible for most of the vitriol spewed in the past few weeks. Yet the strange thing is that they can adopt an ID for posting that would still permit them to remain more or less anonymous, but would create some "ownership" for their comments, and also permit everyone to track their commenting (it sometimes is difficult to determine whether certain anonymous posts are related, since so many have the same attack mentality).
Most of us are here to watch the development of the model, to apply our passions for statistics and politics (and I would say baseball, but the last few weeks it has been too painful to watch my team, the Phillies), and to try to have civil discourse about the election. It is becoming more difficult as the hate noise increases.
That aside, I believe that McCain's campaign will continue to push the "flip-flopper" charge, in an attempt to build on the Karl Rove suggestion that Obama is (paraphrasing) "the snarky one in the corner." however, I think this misses the mark, as the popularity of Jon Stewart and Steven Colbert is based upon their snarky observation of current political discourse.
I believe the ultimate goal of a "flip-flopper" strategy is to attack Obama's high favorable/unfavorable rating, reducing it through "death by papercuts," rather than from any knockout punch. If McCain can reduce Obama's advantage in favorables/unfavorables first, then McCain can start to try to peel away Obama's current polling advantage.
"I've always believed Iraq was a mistake but now I believe [like John McCain] that we must look at conditions on the ground and draw down troops as quickly as possible without destabilizing the progress that's been gained."
Who repeatedly has said that we must get out as carefully as we got in carelessly? Oh, that's right, it was Barack Obama.
These flip-flopping claims against Obama are just as much lies as that he is Muslim or refuses to pledge allegiance to the flag, and have the same source.
I hadn't thought about the incumbent vs challenger angle. I think the vast majority of races do come down to a referendum on the incumbent. This is only the third time in over a hundred years where the incumbent pres or VP wasn't on the ballot. Notably, the other 2 times, the incumbents were extremely unpopular and their parties lost.
I keep saying that I don't think Kerry lost because of Kerry. I think Bush won because he was just popular enough with 51% of the American people. Its hard to remember now. Its especially hard to remember if you were part of the 49%, but a lot of Americans loved Bush after 9/11 and really gave him the benefit of the doubt on Iraq, etc. While his popularity had already started its long decline, he was able to hold on just long enough.
Anytime time you are for a hate spewing, race ranting preacher for 20 years
Rev. Wright is neither hate spewing nor race ranting -- that charge, and the cloud of accusations against Wright, are deeply racist.
Anytime you are against the death penalty but are now for the death penalty
Obama has always been for the death penalty in limited circumstances -- he's written about this in his books; this, like the other claims, is simply a lie.
Beyond that, Obama, a constitutional scholar, made a legal argument, one that I, who am totally opposed to the death penalty, agree with -- there is no distinction between different kinds of crimes (other than treason) in the Constitution. The court decision was wrong; the burden of banning the death penalty in any or all categories falls on the legislature, not the court. But far too many Americans, regardless of political ideology, have no concept of the rule of law, and favor or disfavor judicial decisions solely based on whether they favor or disfavor the consequences, which is just plain wrong.
Anytime you are for the immediate withdrawal of troops from Iraq, but are now against the withdrawal
Such a transparent lie. Obama was never for immediate withdrawal, and is not now against withdrawal.
Some of the lies are more subtle and require something more than the abject ignorance of most Americans to understand why they are lies, but they are all lies.
Jeez, you guys! First, you don't like flip-flops... then you do? Make up your mind, please!
* In February 2008, McCain reversed course on prohibiting waterboarding.
Hey, that's not fair. McCain has a very nuanced, centrist view of torture: it should be done by the CIA, not the military. That's not a flip-flop, that's pragmatism.
The anonymous posters have been responsible for most of the vitriol spewed in the past few weeks.
I find the anonymous posts to be the only thing keeping this site from turning into an Obama cult. If you want this site to be a respected statistical site with analytical discussion, then the first thing to do is make it completely non-partisan. The second is to stop posting opinion pieces such as why Obama is not a flip-flopper. Stick to non-partisan statistical analysis of interesting political issues - not making statistical arguments just to back up Obama talking points or refute McCain/Hillary talking points. You are attracting flies by setting out the honey.
"I had not previously believed the conventional criticism of Obama supporters (cult of personality devoted kool-aid drinkers with a messianic view the candidate) but this sort of reaction is making me rethink - maybe there is something to the stereotype -"
Edited for clarity:
"You must agree with my Position , held by me, Wingnut X, or else is raises suspicicions that you are [read:I will name-call you] Childishly Insulting Term Y."
Wingnut X's imagined response:
"We must admit defeat to Wingnut X! Otherwise we're Insulting Term Y! Oh N03$SSS!!!111!1!"
Real response:
"Wingnut X is a sophomoric debater brimming with ineloquent bitterness, probably stemming from deep-seated sexual inadequacy. Let us click our tongues at him."
sylphhead -
"Wingnut X is a sophomoric debater brimming with ineloquent bitterness, probably stemming from deep-seated sexual inadequacy. Let us click our tongues at him."
Re-read your post and then tell yourself the above quote doesn't apply to you until you believe it.
A brief respite from the Wonk-fest going on here and a little discussion about polls: I'm not sure that anything Kerry could have done would have pulled him into the race. At the end of the Day, Bush had a 55% approval rating -- the same as Reagans -- and, although he didn't fare quite as well, he had the election in the bag pretty much the entire season. Perhaps this is what we can learn from fundamentals: they're hard to run against no matter how good/bad your candidate is.
1) All this talk about flip-flopping is not relevant in this election. It was a big deal in 2004 because Kerry really was a major flip-flopper, whereas neither is in this election. (As an aside, so was Mitt Romney: what the heck is wrong with you Bostonians?)
2) Nate, please start deleting flames, or at least, flame-only posts.
Wingnut, I realize you picked that name for a one-time barb, but I gotta dare ya to keep it. You can say it's making a statement, and the rest of us can say it's making an accurate description.
"A brief respite from the Wonk-fest going on here and a little discussion about polls: I'm not sure that anything Kerry could have done would have pulled him into the race. At the end of the Day, Bush had a 55% approval rating -- the same as Reagans -- and, although he didn't fare quite as well, he had the election in the bag pretty much the entire season. Perhaps this is what we can learn from fundamentals: they're hard to run against no matter how good/bad your candidate is."
I agree that the fundamentals matter more than people think. I read that by far the majority of voters in 2004 decided on their vote months before the election, though unfortunately I don't have a cite handy.
But I disagree that the 2004 election was always in the bag for Bush. 2004 was, historically, a very close election. The Dems made a lot of mistakes. Let's hope they aren't repeated.
I'm pretty new to this site so this may be a bit presumptuous, but I agree with the earlier suggestions that 'Anonymous' tags should be got rid of on comments. Not that 'Ken' or 'Andy' or 'PX34523' are any less anonymous but at least you could track who is saying what in a discussion. One of the other threads seems to have five different people using the 'Anonymous' tag (as far as I can tell from the tenor of their comments, political inclinations and command of spelling and grammar).
On the flip-flopping, I think the two pretty much cancel each other out. McCain got a lot of his over with earlier on when he needed to pander to the Christian Right and Republican fundraisers. Obama had to wait until now when he is appealing to the general electorate and not just the Democratic base. It is a bit disconcerting, all the same, so see how quickly he is moving on issues such as gun control, death penalty, FOSA and so on. Not that it will bother his hard-core supporters - heck, he could turn up in a 'Nuke Iran Now' t-shirt and I swear it wouldn't even make them blink!
Sorry - that should read 'FISA' in the last comment!
While all you left wing liberals out there lambast John McCain and his "flip-flopping," I can only sit back and wonder why no one seems to remember that John Kerry actually asked McCain to be his vice-presidential nominee four years ago! McCain certainly wasn't seen as Bush's third term guy back then. So who is the real "flip-flopper?"
Either you're copying the Plank, or the Plank is copying you Nate...
http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_plank/archive/2008/07/03/flip-flops-as-american-as-apple-pie.aspx
Karen,
There is a dispute about the Kerry/McCain link in 2004, with Kerry saying he was approached by McCain's staff, and McCain claiming Kerry's staff approached him. There is no way to judge the credibility of either camp's assertions.
In either event, while this story makes for a good sound bite, it was never realistic, given the philosophical differences between Kerry and McCain.
Either way, I do not see how this dispute from 2004 validates which candidate is a "flip-flopper."
Isn't there a significant possibility that the flip-flopping charges on all sides will hurt both major party candidates? There are at least four options in this election.
Why hasn't anyone commented on the fact that a recent CNN poll showed the Obama 5% lead shrinking to 3 points when the two third party candidates are included? There was discussion in an older thread that Nader might be helping the Democrat this time around but the 6% CNN recorded for Nader suggests otherwise. Could this suggest that BHOs seeming movement to the center might cost him with idealistic left-leaning voters and that the same thing might happen to McCain?
Is there some way to project the likely decline or gain in support for Barr and Nader as the election approaches? This seems to be a better approach than simply ignoring them for the two-man race. And, shouldn't you be looking at states other than Georgia for likely third-party impacts?
sylphhead -
Wingnut, I realize you picked that name for a one-time barb, but I gotta dare ya to keep it. You can say it's making a statement, and the rest of us can say it's making an accurate description.
Keeping the level of discussion consistently high, are we? Considering the single post I made merely quoted you, who is the wingnut?
Obama all CHANGE all the time:
CHANGE ... what you'll have left after I raise taxes.
CHANGE ... your gas prices upwards, but gradually
CHANGE ... my hat size because every day my head gets bigger
CHANGE ... the national motto to: In Obama We Trust.
CHANGE ... what I do to my story depending upon whom I'm talking to.
CHANGE ... what I do every day to my foreign policy
CHANGE ... what I do to my trade policy depending upon whom I'm talking to
CHANGE ... your lifestyle because the rest of the world doesn't like you
CHANGE ... my friends when they turn out NOT to be "The person I knew"
CHANGE ... what my radical left-wing ideologue handlers have in store for you
CHANGE ... what I do to facts to suit my needs.
CHANGE ... my previous position in favor of gun control was 'inartful language'
CHANGE ... my pastor's screed is OK, yours isn't
CHANGE ... FISA line that we crossed but I have now moved back
CHANGE ... from public to private campaign financing because I can raise more money
CHANGE ... I'll debate John McCain anytime, anywhere; except when and where he asks me.
CHANGE ... the words of others and claim they're mine, because words count.
CHANGE ... the meaning of Bible verses to meet my own liberal world view
CHANGE ... more of you into victims of something and build government programs to take care of you
CHANGE ... you into a ward of the state so that I OWN you and your vote
CHANGE ... your mind and believe in me for I am the Obamessiah come to save you
CHANGE ... into giggling sycophants; liberal mainstream media do under the spell of the Obamessiah
CHANGE ... the chant I use to control the weak-minded Obamanized masses
CHANGE ... into an Obamatron; join the cult, repeat the chant: CHANGE, CHANGE, CHANGE ...
CHANGE ... what I plan to do to America because it's the greatest country on the planet.
CHANGE ... the national anthems of all the nations of the world to Kumbaya using my messianic foreign policy skills
CHANGE ... into mumble-mouthed idiot when I don't have prepared speech to read.
CHANGE ... historical facts to agree with my life story
CHANGE ... I said the DC gun ban was constitutional, but now I agree with Supreme Court ruling it unconstitutional.
CHANGE ... what I said because my rhetoric was 'overheated and amplified'
CHANGE ... I mocked Hillary during the primary, now she “rocks”.
CHANGE ... I respect McCain's service to his nation, so I sent Wesley “looser” Clark out to demean him
CHANGE ... but not for us, not the left-wing liberal elite, CHANGE is for YOU.
CHANGE ... the mortgage industry is a bunch of crooks; but I got my deal
CHANGE ... I was against welfare reform until Congress passed the Welfare Reform Act, then I “invented” it in Illinois
CHANGE ... I didn't vote to censure MoveOn.org for the “General Betray Us” ad, but now that I need some Independent votes, I'll issue a rebuke.
CHANGE ... I didn't wear an American flag pin because it was substitute for true patriotism, but I do now.
CHANGE ... when I'm president, I'll immediately bring the troops home ...
CAHNGE ... I want to bring the bring the troops home by March of 2008 ...
CHANGE ... I'll bring the troops home in sixteen months ...
CHANGE ... I'll begin to withdraw troops immediately, a division or two per month ...
CHANGE ... unless I “refine” my policies.
CHANGE ... anything and everything I've said or done in my life if it will help me win
CHANGE ... the definition of change to: What I say, when I say it, to whom I say it.
CHANGE ... I can CHANGE when it suits me
CHANGE ... you can believe in ... for a day or two
CHANGE ... you can't keep up with
CHANGE ... you can see through
CHANGE ... your underwear because you'll defecate in your pants when you wake up to find out what the left-wing liberal ideologues have done after gaining complete control of government.
CHANGE ... YOU better freaking BELIEVE IN because it will WORK YOU over.
Obama: the AUDACITY to count on you and I being DOPEs
Do pledged Obama delegates have the obligation to switch votes at the convention if they feel that he no longer represents the sentiments of those that elected him?
The DNC rules not only allow it, they encourage it:
http://www.pledgednotbound.com/
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