With the news that John Edwards will debate Karl Rove on September 26 at the University of Buffalo, it's a good day for some quick tea-leaf reading. Does this mean Edwards is out of the running for VP? “We’re working on something like that for our Distinguished Speakers Series,” said Bill Regan, UB’s director of special events. “We’re not really sure of the format yet. But we do think they are scheduled to do it at least once together before they come to UB.”
Let's agree up front that if Edwards were offered the #2 slot and took it, the notion of canceling the event with Rove would not be any big deal. Telling the university and obviously interested media that he regretfully needs to focus on VP stuff, and perhaps finding a stand-in to keep the event(s) viable, is an excuse everyone would obviously accept. And it seems highly unlikely Obama would want Rove getting clean shots at his VP, so the cancellation of said debate(s) would seem automatic.
Still, Republicans would carpet the airwaves for a day, asking, "What's John Edwards afraid of? Just because he's the VP candidate he can't still debate Karl Rove? Why are Obama and Edwards afraid? (Blah blah blah "Democrat Party" national security here)." Why give away cheap, freebie points like this? Why even waste the energy having surrogates point out how silly it is and even one day of controlling the message?
If you're standing in John Edwards' shoes, and let's say you want the #2 offer, is accepting this kind of commitment five weeks before the general election more or less an indication that you're clearing your schedule for the fall? It can be argued that if the unwritten rules require you to appear publicly disinterested in the post, this commitment signals excellent blasé-itude.
But what to make of the snippet that this may not be an individual event, but part of a series?As surrogates for the parties’ standard bearers, the two also could square off more than once at other locations around the nation.
Committing to a series of high-profile and sure to be much-discussed debates with Karl Rove is a great way to stay important in the Democratic Party; it's also a telegraphed sign that Edwards knows the answer to whether he'll be the pick.
Have a safe and happy 4th!
7.04.2008
Fall Edwards-Rove Debates Mean No Edwards VP?
by Sean Quinn @ 4:06 PM...see also edwards, vice president
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45 comments
Can we have the "Days till the Election" counter back?
I don't think it's going to be Edwards. He's indicated many times he doesn't want the position and while I think he'd be a good choice - he wasn't a great VP candidate in '04 so I don't see any great reason for Obama to select him in '08.
It hit me while reading that you missed one possibility: that by September it might be VP Edwards up against VP Rove.
I'm still rooting for McCain to pick Lieberman as a running mate, mind you....
Being elected VP might be the only way for Karl to stay out of the slammer. He could instantly classify his life history as a state secret.
Lieberman as VP would be an excellent way to energize both the left and the right ... against McCain.
I think an Edwards or Lieberman pick for either candidate sends a message that I doubt that they'd want to send:
"We're in tune with the failures of the past!"
Let's say Obama does pick him, and then Edwards doesn't bow out. Wouldn't that make it look as if McCain's true "running mate" is Rove and the Bush administration?
It's not going to be Edwards. He really offers nothing to the ticket. He has no executive experience, no particular foreign policy credentials, no key constituency base (could he bring the Machinists aboard? could he help with the hispanic vote or with women?) and no base in a swing state (could he deliver NC? I doubt it). He swung hard to the left during the primaries. Beyond that, he is utterly unexciting as a choice due to his connection to the Kerry race. I seriously doubt that the Obama campaign is giving Edwards any serious consideration, and anything in the press on the matter is simply idle speculation.
Am I correct in saying that John Edwards is far more poppular than Karl Rove?
What opinions do you (all) have of MT governor Brian Schweitzer for VP? My first choice was Warner, but he seems to have removed himself from the running, so now my first choice is Schweitzer, but it's just a hunch. I don't really know much about him.
Being elected VP might be the only way for Karl to stay out of the slammer.
I think the pardon from Bush coming in December will be more effective.
Sorry to break this to you Sean, but you're pretty much the last to know that it's not going to be Edwards if you're just finding out now. It was obvious before the primary ended. And, I don't mean to blow your mind or anything, but it also won't be Lieberman, Gore, Clinton, Pelosi, or Dean.
Am I correct in saying that John Edwards is far more popular than Karl Rove?
On the left, I'd say Rove is in hot contention with Bush, Cheney, Lieberman and Bin Laden as the most unpopular person in the world, but I think the right reveres him in the way that Tigers fans must have revered Ty Cobb with his razor spikes or Giants fans revered Bonds and his chemically altered physique.
I think the pardon from Bush coming in December will be more effective.
He'd have to issue a series of pardons - one for Siegelman, several for the US Attorney scandal ... several for the Abramoff scandal, a wide variety for the various aspects of the politicization of the Justice Dept, GAO, etc.
In other words, to thoroughly protect Rove from his dozens of felonies, Bush would have to pretty much spell out each one, admitting executive branch culpability in the process. He can't just pardon Karl for any unspecified crimes he may been discovered to have committed, can he?
CAN HE???? He'll probably getting Addington and Yoo to tell him he can.
"He can't just pardon Karl for any unspecified crimes he may been discovered to have committed, can he?"
Yeah, I'm pretty sure he can. Gerald Ford's pardon of Richard Nixon said,
"Now, THEREFORE, I, GERALD R. FORD, President of the United States, pursuant to the pardon power conferred upon me by Article II, Section 2, of the Constitution, have granted and by these presents do grant a full, free, and absolute pardon unto Richard Nixon for all offenses against the United States which he, Richard Nixon, has committed or may have committed or taken part in during the period from January 20, 1969 through August 9,1974." (http://www.ford.utexas.edu/library/speeches/740061.htm)
Intrade just added Colin Powell contracts to both the 2008 Republican and Democratic VP Nominee categories.
Schweitzer remains my guess and hope, but I can't imagine Obama wouldn't check with Powell to see if he'd be willing to join the ticket before asking anyone else.
Edwards would do much better as Obama's AG. He can be the pit bull the left needs to prosecute the crimes of the Bush administration.
To Obsessed,
MT Gov Schweitzer is my first choice. There are several great choices and many good choices.
Powell would be a good endorsee, but VP? Well, first of all there's no way he'd take it from McCain - he's already as much as said he's voting for Obama. Second, his role in the Iraq debacle is poison to Obama's strongest argument - that he risked taking the extremely unpopular position of opposing it on principle from the beginning.
I'm not sure what the impact would be of the doubled-down demographic of having two sort of black guys on the same ticket.
Hey - we've got RINO and DINO ... how about BINO? jajajaja
No - BISCO - "Black in Skin Color Only". Seriously though, I guess Obama can lay claim to a certain modicum of cultural blackness, but Powell is much closer to Ward Cleaver than he is to Eldridge.
Gerald Ford's pardon of Richard Nixon said ...
Ouch! Okay - you're right - Bush is almost certain to give Karl a blanket pardon. Of course, that opens up the same can of worms with civil suits that a Libby pardon would have.
And I trust he can't give him a blanket commutation, right?
You say Obama wouldn't want Rove getting clear shots at his VP. I agree, but why? You offer that "telling the university and obviously interested media that he regretfully needs to focus on VP stuff" is an "excuse." What is the real reason? Surely it would be a little unorthodox for a party's VP candidate to debate with the other party's chief strategist, but that's not why they wouldn't do it.
They wouldn't do it for the same reason Obama refuses to debate McCain or have town hall meetings and the like. It's because it would be stupid for a front-running candidate with all the momentum to put himself on the same stage with the lesser candidate, risking unscripted moments, especially when said front-running candidate has very vague and silly positions that would easily be torn apart by most opponents (probably not McCain, though).
Edwards was never an option. He endorsed Obama far too late. He was paid in full for it too (remember Obama adopting his anti poverty program). As for him bringing voters with him, he didn't even bring his wife!
Every election Colin Powel's name comes up for VP. He can have it any time he wants, from ether party.He could probably have it from both at once. He is the only AA in the USA that Obama could pick without claims of jobs for the (black) boys. The problem is that Colin doesn't want it.
Edwards wants Attorney General, not VP. The RFK thing.
Edwards doesn't want it.
I don't think I agree with the premise of the question. I'm not sure that the Republicans would make a big deal of it.
Obviously, Rove is not the equivalent of a VP candidate. Plus, what do they have to gain from it. Edwards would be debating the GOP VP. I'd also point out that Rove is not that popular a guy now. I'm not even sure why he is so front and center for the McCain campaign. He should be operating out of a back room and not on camera.
I don't know how many times Edwards has to say he doesn't want the job before people accept that he doesn't want the job.
He said that he has run for the office and doesn't want to do that again. He wasn't very good on the campaign trail in 2004 and hated the wimpy role he was given. He did mediocre in the debate against Cheney, not being able to wipe the floor with Cheney is a black mark. OTOH, Vice-Presidential debates are a complete waste of time anyway.
This was proven by the Lloyd Bentsen - Danny Quayle debate, when Bentsen blew Quayle out of the water with the "you're no Jack Kennedy" quote. That confirmed in the public mind that Quayle wasn't ready for the job, but it didn't matter a bit. Bush still won in a landslide, because people just don't vote for VP.
It cannot be argued since that time that the VP pick is going to matter much. At best it confirms the judgment of the candidate. At worst it raises questions about his judgment.
But, if voters were comfortable with VP Quayle and Cheney (who has about 1/2 the popularity that Bush has right now -- i.e. about 13%) then they'll swallow anything.
Colin Powell isn't going to be the choice either. Two black men running the country might be a bit much for voters, even if it is Colin Powell.
I'm glad he's NOT going to be the candidate. I don't care who he endorses now, it's 5 years too late.
He was the lying pig who stood before the U.N. and spun that Bush fable. If he had any integrity at all he would have resigned then rather than read that speech -- which he knew at the time contained very shaky intelligence at best and outright falsehooods at worst. If he HAD had the guts to stand up to Bush when it counted, he might well have stopped or at least delayed that war.
There's no way he can pick the man who coined the phrase "the McCain surge" especially now that Obama has unveiled his new position on Iraq.
Edwards' main problem in 2004 was his lack of experience. In 4 years, he's done nothing but run for President, again. Given Obama's lack of national experience, Edwards brings little to the table. He also has a "been there; done that" taint about him, and his performance was adequate but not stellar as Kerry's #2.
As for Rove, the only thing I want to know is why he isn't in prison.
It will not be Edwards, for all of the reasons people have discussed above. While it is part of the dance for a person being considered for VP to say he does not want the position, in this case, I believe Edwards means it, for both personal and professional reasons.
As for Colin Powell, it will not be him, either. However, if he does endorse Obama officially, then I believe it would be an excellent idea to have Powell as SecDef in an Obama administration. I believe that Powell is still well respected by each of the services, and could well be instrumental in getting the services to propose a means to start a phased withdrawal. This would also permit Powell to restore his own legacy, by helping clean up the mess he aided and abetted.
@ Cugel: As we would say in German, Powell was rather the 'poor pig' ("arme Sau" = poor guy) to stand before the UN spinning lies. I doubt that he could have made any difference at that time - Bush and Cheney had taken their decision, and they did not mind international protests and UN observer reports either.
To his fairness, he was among the first to come out and openly admit what he had done. Also, from what has leaked to the press here, there had been real surprise and disappointment on his stance on the side of German politicians, unlike it was the case with, say, Rumsfeld. So, he must at least have been able to build up respect and personal appreciation before faltering on Iraq. Thus, it might not be a bad idea to offer him a chance for restoring his image and legacy, should he want it.
Obama can't take powell , he's black. He can't take sebielius, shes a woman. The media would have a field day with the slap in the face to Hillary.
Warner and Strickland don't want it. Webb has the qualifications, but a very checkered past with regards to womens positions and rhetoric, not goin over very well with Hill's crowd.
Edwards did it last time and sucked at it. Wesley Clark wants it and has the credentials but I don't think he's got the political skills yet to stay out of trouble. As evident by last week's dust up, military men are too honest. Not good enough liars.
None of the current governors have any foreign policy experience, except Richardson but the late Tim Russert (God rest his soul) chewed him up and spit him out on MTP last year. And none of the senators have much needed executive experience.
Theres no real obvious choice, but my top three are:
1. Joe Biden. Democrats love him. He's catholic, from Pennsylvania, McCains equal in Foreign policy, Barack gets along really well with him and he's honest. Downside, long time senator, no executive experience, and likes to talk too much.
2. Jim Web. If the Democratic women can get beyond some of his ex navy ways he brings a lot. From Virginia, war vet, Ex Navy secretary with Appalachian roots, he's a centrist that will be tough for the GOP to slander. He can out McCain McCain.
3. Hillary Clinton. This is the easy choice if so much of the country didn't hate her, including Barack. Instant unity, screw the independents, we'll maximize democratic turnout take Michigan and Ohio, supercharge women and AA. I think this would be the ticket if it not for the 300 pound elephant in the room, Bill Clinton. Lots of good and lots of bad. This might be the best way to win, but the toughest to govern.
My long shot personal fave is Brian Schweitzer of Montana. Energy expert. Moderate. Gun toten god faring country boy. He's just about the opposite of Obama visually. I like the guy.
It's totally a question of whether or not Powell would be willing.
He helps on experience, post-partisan bipartisanship, pandering to this or that constituency (and offending some or all of the others) with the pick and there's nothing McCain could do to top it.
Obama's best argument (made by example) is that he's the best politician in what is an admittedly mediocre and uninspired time for politicians. It's a very good argument and picking Powell, if he's available, is what the best politician would do.
That it would annoy many in the commentariat on both the left and the right might even be the best reason to do it.
Let's give them something to talk about... 123 days to go.
Are you kidding me? John Edwards has no chance of being VP. Have you forgotten the $400 haircuts, the 30,000 sf home next to the poverty center or the child he has with Rielle Hunter? Sign him up for the WWF.
It means nothing. There is a speakers booking agent that will book Edwards and Rove together for events. This is not the only event that they are booked for. Edwards speaks for $60,000 per event.
He WILL pick Edwards for the following reasons
1. The combination already polls well and outpolls other options. Why would Obama take a risk with an undefined candidate when there already exists a candidate who gives the ticket what it needs.
2. It will unite the democratic party, solidify the base allowing Obama to appeal to the centre and bring in the resources of the Edwards campaign.
3.Demographic appeal.
4. Edward's natural talents on the stump
5. Mrs Edwards
I think you are reading way too much. Edwards, as well as a number of possible VP candidates are scheduled for all sorts of things between now and November. This is tea leaf reading without any leaves.
And another point - you assume a VP candidate wouldn't debate Rove.
Why the heck not?
Anonymous said...
"He can't take sebielius, shes a woman. The media would have a field day with the slap in the face to Hillary."
Any candidate for VP who is not Hillary is the same slap in the face. Need I remind you that Hillary is now an Obama supporter who will enthusiasticly endorse whoever Obama chooses (at least in public)?
Sebielius is a highly popular Govenor in a Republican state. Her handling of her State's economy is excelent. That make her one of the best choices for President in the USA. She bonds well with Obama and thus can be expected to be fully integrated with the comand structure. Finaly they agree on how to govern.
If something should hapen to President Obama the move to President Sebielius would be seamless.
Obama is in excellent health but there will be plenty of times when he will need to be in 2 places at once. As VP Sebielius will double the available leadership.
The Presidency should go not to a candidate with experience, because nobody could have a fraction of what is needed. It should go to the candidate with managment skills who knows how to choose & get the best out of those who have specific talents. That is why Obama is so good, so why should the Vice President be chosen differently?
Why are Rove and Edwards conducting this debate on September 26, the day scheduled for the first official Obama/McCain debate? Nobody is going to pay any attention.
Edwards ran for President in 2004 and carried one or two states in the primaries; ran again in 2008 and got nada. Could not help Kerry carry Edwards' own home county! Plus, Obama/Edwards would be an all metrosexual ticket. Not gonna happen.
Obama was in MT for the Fourth so Schweitzer is definitely on the short list. But adds no help on foreign policy. If I had to bet $100 I'd bet on him or blabbermouth Biden.
Bayh.
goethean's suggestion of Evan Bayh is the guy I'd choose if I were Obama. A vanilla choice that puts IN in play.
Webb would help in VA but there is something odd about him and he's a loose cannon.
If it's not John Edwards, who DOES bring much to the ticket with blue collar workers and populists everywhere, my next choice is Brian Scweitzer, who is a giant of a man in every way and would bring Rocky MOuntain states in to the fold. He would be a hit all over the nation. His wit alone would get rave reviews.
Karita Hummer
Edwards Democrat, In unity:Identifiable, Vibrant, Vocal and Strong (as with backbone), always for economic justice
Rove will kick Edward's butt the way Cheney did. As much as I hate him, Rove is a better debater.
VP STAKES: You all got it wrong. As of today (July 5th), it's Bill Richardson. Take that to the bank. I got this from an impeccable source on the ground. Obama has at least 5 promising combinations or permutations to get to 270. They think the quick and dirty way to get over the top without McCain not knowing what hit him is to go the Colorado-New Mexico-Iowa route and keep all states that Kerry carried . No states won by Kerry leans GOP at this time. It's consistent in all electoral college maps I have seen so far including this one: http://rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/election_2008_electoral_college_update
However, things might change if Romney is on the ticket because he might put Michigan in play. That may force Obama to look for another route including one through Florida.
I cant belive all of the people trashing Edwards here.
Edwards role in 2004 was completely controlled by Kerry's weak campaign style and advisors. A VP runs what the Presidnetial candidate tells them to run and kerry wanted a weak quiet, non-controversial candidate. h elimited Edwards strengths. The only fault of Kerry losing is Kerry. Peple vote for the pres....not VP.
Edwards and Obama have the same principles and work well together. They both are change candidates...people wanting " national scurity experience" vote republican anyway.(Even though McCain has no experience and his judgment is awful)
Edwards/Obama polls the best already against any possible McCain Vp. Edwards wins conservative dems, working class, union, reluctant whites(sadly there still are some)
Also, Edwards said he wouldnt prefer to be VP but if asked by the presidential candidate he would more than likely accept because that is a big offer. Its not out of the question there.
Im hoping with everything I have that it is Edwards as VP! Hes my personal favorite and he is the best for the job.
No Demo VP candidate can have a debate with Rove. That is an absolutely no-win situation. Whatever the other guy tags you with sticks. Whatever you tag the other guy with can be shrugged off as "well, after all, [Karl] is not a candidate for anything. And Rove is no punching bag as a debater. He didn't get a repuation for slickness, and making false points that stick, for nothing.
Edwards scheduling this speech event just shows that he does not have any expectation that he will get the nod as VP candidate. And I tend to agree with those he say he really doesn't want the candidacy; I think that's because he wants to be with his wife during her continuing strugge with cancer. The two of them already sacrificed on this for the cause in '04, and I don't believe they want to do it again.
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