Dan Riehl of Riehl World View, whom I directed some criticism at the other night over the New Yorker cover faux-controversy, writes in.
Here's from my original post:Hence, the irony of the cover art. (The right's favorite punchline about the cover seems to be, "all humor has it's basis in reality" [sic]. To which I'd ask: what part has the basis in reality? The terrorist part or the terrorist part?)
Here is the passage I quoted from Dan in fuller context:"Oh, and lest someone else forget to point it out ... all humor has its basis in reality. Evidently the article doesn't, as it suggests the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy has been painting Obama to fit the cover. Since when has Hillary been considered part of that?"
Here is Dan (over e-mail):I don't believe Obama is a "terrorist." If you read the reality portion of my post, it's in the graph with Hillary. In other words, yes, some have tried to paint Obama as a Muslim, potentially even a terrorist sympathizer - making the satire on mark. But much of that came from Hillary and Co. not the right. Though I'd expect it in the Fall when it matters. Hopefully a careful reading will make that more clear, though perhaps not. Best -- Dan
You can determine for yourself whether I mischaracterized Dan's original argument, but I'm actually very much in agreement with the argument as he clarified it in his e-mail. An awful lot of the most vicious anti-Obama smears have in fact come from the disillusioned left. Probably not "most of" -- but as Dan says, "much of".
Certainly, the right is not without blame. Fox News was responsible for the madrassa smear, the "terrorist fist jab", and the original and widely-distributed Muslim smear e-mail has been traced back to a RedState poster.
Still, there is no site more virulently and violently anti-Obama than the ostensibly left-leaning No Quarter, which bore responsibility for spreading the "whitey" smear" and on a daily basis accuses Obama of things ranging from faking his birth certificate to encouraging pedophiles through his "Kids for Obama" website.
Moreover, there is reason to believe that the "whitey" smear may have been propagated by pro-Clinton forces that went beyond Johnson. This is from a post I drafted about a month ago and never went live with, but which seems topical now.There are no people who have to have seen the Michelle Obama "whitey" tape.
I might also add that county chairs in the Clinton campaign were caught distributing the Muslim smear e-mail.
Furthermore, there are no people who claim to have spoken with anybody who has seen the Michelle Obama "whitey" tape.
This is because the tape does not exist.
There are three people who claim to have spoken with people who have spoken with people who have seen the tape. Those people are Larry C. Johnson, Bob Beckel, and Roger Stone.
What do these people have in common?
Larry C. Johnson is a Clinton -- let's call him a Clinton enthusiast.
Bob Beckel is a Democratic strategist.
So we have two Democrats. The oddball was always Roger Stone, who is a Republican dirty tricks maestro.
Except that today, in a video posted at Barack Obama's smear-fighting website, we see that Beckel told Sean Hannity that his source was someone in the Clinton campaign:Because I have heard this from people who are not mid-level in the Clinton campaign, not at the lower level -- I've heard this from people who have a lot of credibility, to me, as serious people.
I am not suggesting that this was any sort of organized effort on the Clinton campaign's behalf. For one thing, many of the people involved may be capable of lying. For another, part of the Clinton campaign's problem was a lack of coordination, so we would probably be talking more a lone wolf sort of scenario where something went off and did something stupid without approval. But it does seem plausible to me that someone with some measure of authority in the campaign was inventing, and disseminating, these rumors.
If you want to get into circumstantial evidence, the timing of the rumors, coming at the very end of the primary process when Clinton's prospects for the nomination were slim and her campaign was desperate, would certainly seem to be more fortuitous for Clinton than the for the GOP. Her main objective at that point was to find some way to freeze the superdelegates and extend her clock, and this is the sort of thing that might have done it.
It would also make sense in terms of the degrees of separation involved. Nobody on the Clinton campaign can claim to have had access to the tape, because then the question would be why weren't they using it. But they can claim to have spoken with people who have access to the tape, and claim that those people were Republicans who were waiting to use it as an October Surprise. Why a Republican who was in possession of the tape would tell a high-level operative in the Clinton campaign about it, I don't know -- this would certainly seem to ruin the 'surprise' element -- but it provides some cover for plausible deniability.
Finally, the Clinton campaign was accused of this precise kind of behavior before -- not spreading a rumor, but spreading a rumor about a rumor -- back in November through the vehicle of Bob Novak.
Here, I suppose, is the thing. There are all sorts of reasons to be opposed to Barack Obama's candidacy. Most of them are perfectly legitimate -- you think he'll raise your taxes, you want to keep in the troops in Iraq, you think he's too young and inexperienced to handle a crisis, etc. A small minority of them aren't as legitimate: you don't like black people. You think he's part of a Muslim sleeper cell.
If you take your typical Republican, they'll have lots of these legitimate reasons for opposing Obama's candidacy. They might have some illegitimate ones too, but the basic disagreements with the Democrats on economic and foreign policy would suffice to preclude from voting for Obama. That doesn't mean there might not be some strategic benefit to their spreading smears about Obama (see Dan's warning about expecting such things in the fall), but of the Republicans who oppose Obama, I'd assume that relatively few of them do so for such reasons.
On the other hand, if you're a Democrat, that takes a whole lot of the legitimate reasons for opposing Obama off the table -- particularly as his views were in alignment with those of his leading opponent, Hillary Clinton, on about 98 percent of issues. So most of the criticisms necessarily go to character, some of which are reasonable enough ("he's too arrogant") and some of which are not ("he's a black dude").
Put differently, if you oppose Obama, it becomes much more likely that you do so for reasons related to his race, or because you believe one of the smears about his character, if we also learn that you're a Democrat. Of course, there are many fewer Democrats who oppose Obama than Republicans. But I would guess that racism, hatred and stupidity are pretty evenly divided across the political spectrum.
7.15.2008
Equal Time
by Nate Silver @ 11:30 AM...see also controversy, obama
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131 comments
It's racism. The Muslim smears persist only because Obama looks like a potential Muslim. If a white candidate with German ancestry is running, we wouldn't have 10% of the country spontaneously thinking of "Nazi" when asked for an adjective.
ha, it's also possible that this Beckel person just totally made the whole thing up himself by shifting the blame to "someone" in Hillary's campaign.
I can always claim that i hear from "someone" that obama sucks balls for fun and it can still end up on fox news front page.
it's occam's razor. either those three people just made it up and blame someone else, or, they actually heard from someone. simple as that.
The whole thing supports my thesis as relayed elsewhere that all of this race and Muslim baiting is enervating the public and they will soon tire of the baggage that Obama will bring to the Presidency.
Many of you will not want to hear this, but we don't care that Obama may be a Muslim or that he is being attacked because of his race. We want a leader who can lead us, not someone who will be constantly moored in squabbles over his race and ancestry.
Obama has made a huge miscalculation at this point in not ignoring all this stuff. He is becoming defined by it, even if people believe him and have sympathy for him. It is too big a distraction.
Our nation and our president have bigger and important things to contend with than anti-Muslim prejudice and racial animus.
It is a quagmire that Obama seems unwilling to get out of.
McCain will win because of it.
America was prepared to elect Obama President, but it quails at electing a "Black President".
He could not pass the post-racial test, let alone the Commander in Chief one.
Whaaa? Look, the charges that Obama is a Muslim are worthy of nothing more than ridicule, but Obama's father was born a Muslim. Obama's middle name, Hussein, is common among Muslims. To dump it all on "racism" is beyond naive, trending into stupid.
I know someone who has seen a tape that shows McCain sodomising young boys. Perhaps if another ten people mention this, the New Yorker will produce a parody of McCain in a 'humorous' paedophile pose.
Just satire right? A bit like McCain telling his wife that she is a trollop and a c*nt (save that that would not be satirical because it would be true)
Obama has made a huge miscalculation at this point in not ignoring all this stuff.
Actually, Obama and his campaign has pretty much ignored all of it. The media, of course, can't stop talking about it, neither can some people on the left.
Obama himself, though, has been focused on policy as you suggest he ought to be. I'm glad to hear that you approve of this approach, and I'm sure that on that basis you'll be voting for him in November.
It may sound weird, but I think the smear thing tends to help Obama. He can credibly say, see they called me a terrorist and I can prove I am not, therefore they must be lying when they say I will raise your taxes, or I am pro partial birth or live birth abortion. The credibility of the issues that need to be argued gets swallowed by the inane rants of the smear campaign.
there is a new 527 called vetsforfreedom that claims to be impartial, but says they would never support a candidate who would commit to pulling out of Iraq before being in office and analyzing whether the job is complete. Sounds like the attempt at Swiftboating Mr. Obama is beginning.
I'm with Tybalt.
Please read the speech given today by Barack Obama on Iraq and terrorism and foreign policy. It is a strong, articulate, coherent, winning strategy for our country.
Neither George Bush or John McCain have offered anything comparable.
I see the "inexperienced" argument in Poblano's commentary.
How experienced was Lincoln when he took office? About the same as Obama.
What "experience" did Bush have when he came to Washington? After 8 years of an imperial Presidency, would you trust his judgment based on experience?
What has 24 years of being a Senator given in terms of "experience" to McCain?
So Poblano, how does "experience" count in serious arguments for people to reject Obama legitimately?
Peter - you are a sad, sad person. The sadddest part is that you can not let go enough to see how your own pain has clouded your mind and influenced your actions.
I pray for you.
Nate - are you now labeling your partisan posts under 'poblano'? Not sure if it's necessary as most site visitors are aware of your political leanings.
Although you can blame Fox for the widespread publicizing of the "terrorist fist jab" dig at Obama, this might have also been a rumor-about-a-rumor left-wing reverse hit as I recount in a blog posting:
Second, and much less serious, is the "terrorist fist jab". Where did this (admittedly great) phrase first come from? I first heard about it from Andrew Sullivan, who linked to this posting at Slate which claimed that Cal Thomas at Human Events called the Barack-Michelle pound "a Hezbollah style fist-jabbing." A subsequent edit at Slate admitted that Cal Thomas had not made that accusation, but it was instead one of the commenters...but which one? As best I can tell, the only comments on Cal Thomas's post referring to a "Hezbollah style fist-jabbing" were left-wingers responding to the ludicrous accusation. Somebody, somewhere, accused Cal Thomas of a ridiculous statement...commenters responded without actually RTFA...and everything started cross-posting and a meme was born.
But it was (of course) Fox News who brought it to the air and cemented "terrorist fist jab" in our language. Thank you, E. D. Hill.
To Pete Kent, so you're saying that the Obama Muslim problem is Obama's fault? Even you must admit that's an unfair assessment. I don't think the biggest problem for a president is the "baggage" he'll bring with him into the office. Baggage is usually the person's doing (an affair, tax fraud, etc.) Obama being a muslim is not "baggage" because it is not his own doing, he was not a Muslim and never was. So it is not fair to call this baggage. The most important thing to consider for the next president is someone who has the intelligence to lead this country. John McCain sometimes has to ask his aids what his positions are. When asked about certain policy questions he either lies or looks like a trapped animal. I've been a die-hard republican ever since the Clinton years, but I've had serious questions about John McCain. I do respect his position on abortion, however I'm very upset about his position on embryonic stem cell research. So this will be a tough election for me.
Anon at 1152. Thanks for your prayers --we can always use the power of God in our lives.
Perhaps it was the hand of God that caused Cincy McCain to dedicate herself to the resuce of orphans in the thrid world and seek to imporve their lives by correcting the cleft palates ofchildren who have no access to medical care.
For shame that some would call her vile names out of political expediency.
Beware St. Thomas Aqinas (I think): More tears are shed over answered prayers than those that go unheard.
None of us really know what God's plan is for us or his Universe, but we must strive to do his will, however, imperfect our conception of it.
To Irene:
It really doesn't matter whose fault it is. Obama is bogged down by racial issues everywhere he seems to turn.
The lead story last night on the cable news was all about the New Yorker cover. A cover that everyone understood was about satire, yet produced such consternation among Obama supporters and within his camp. You couple that with the hue and cry over Jesse Jackson's remarks, which may have induced some sympathy for Obama and you think back to the other sustained narrative of this campaign: Reverend Wright and Trinity United Church and you have the makings of a problem.
The American people are by and large not racist and this election will not be fought over the hearts and minds of such benighted fools as they.
However, the great mass of people want a President of the United States of America and what is emerging about Obama's campaign is that everything about him and it, and presumably his administration is being seen through the prism of race.
I do not think even Black people enjoy all this attention being placed on racial identity. It is constant and it is a distraction from issues.
Instead of laughing and shrugging off the silly stereotype of them on the New Yorker cover, the Obama’s contributed to the firestorm and added more gasoline to the fire, further assuring that his is a candidacy firmly rooted in his racial identity.
With so much that the next President has to face, he can ill-afford to be distracted by constant race baiting, whether by his own campaign/administration or those who would attack it.
I think the election was lost for Obama last night, as it became clear to me how wearying all this racial discussion and politics are.
Many, many people, including those who might be inclined to vote for Obama in the abstract will shun his candidacy because he brings with him that baggage.
That he cannot help it, does not excuse it.
FACE IT THERE IS A TAPE OUT THERE AND PROBABLY ONE ON BOTH MR AND MRS ODUMBO. WE WON'T SEE IT UNTIL AFTER THE CONVENTIONS.
I'M SURE OBAMA WILL EXPLAIN IT AWAY AND WILL BE ABETTED BY HIS NEWS MEDIA BROTHERS.
These are facts:
Barack and Husssein are Arabic names.
Barack's natural father (now dead) was a Muslim (albeit a non-observant one). Virtually all of Barack's relatives on his father;s side are currently Muslims.
Barack's stepfather Lolo was a Muslim and Barack wen to mosque on Friday nights with him sometimes in Indonesia according to witnesses located by the LA Times.
Barack was registered as a Muslim at both a Catholic school and a public school in Indonesia. At the latter, Barack took classes in reading aloud from the Koran in Arabic (wearing a special sarong according to witnesses). Barack once quoted the Koran in Arabic to a reporter in 2007.
In his first memoir, Barack said he first became a Christian when he joined Trinity when in his twenties.
Trinity sells nation of Islam DVDs.
With facts like those, is it any wonder why some people erroneously believe that Barack is currently a Muslim. Barack should embrace his Muslim heritage and say it wil make him a better President, emphasizing he is Christian now.
Perhaps us former Hillary supporters should be attacking Obama for his horrible economic policies, most of which were developed long before the current oil spike and economic downturn, that will serve as acts of economic terrorism against the American people - rather than supporting these ineffectual whisper campaigns about his ties to anti-american groups and shady personal relations with felons.
I see the concern trolls are out in force today... And Gary, what exactly are Obama's "horrible economic policies"?
Most of Obama´s baggage is smear talk. If you call his race "baggage" you simply are a racist. If you call him a radical muslim because he grew up in a muslim country and had a provocative pastor, you are contradicting yourself...as if any true muslim would visit a christian church for 20 years....
The terrorist fist jab is awesome.
Gary-
Most of his policies were the same as hers. Get a grip.
Anon @ 12:07:
Oy. Put up or shutup. Kaithanksbai.
Pete:
Yet another point at which Obama lost the election. Ho Hum.
Alex S:
There you go, throwing the race card!
Obama's race is a fact and how he and we deal with it are determinative factors int he election.
To ignore it is folly.
I am a realist, but no rascist!
Condi Rice in 2016!
Pete Kent: Thats a novel idea: The right/disaffected left spread smears/lies about Obama, who runs a "post racial" campaign and America gets tired of all the smears/racial stuff and so they vote against Obama? Dream On. Not going to happen. Not this year.
As much as you and your ilk try to tear down Obama with nonsense, just know that Bush/Cheney is a bigger albatross for McCain than any smear/lie is for Obama.
Winston
Provide a single name as witness to your allegations that Obama has actively engaged as a Muslim. I'm not talking about unattributable smears that you've read on various GOP impotence assistance sites that you doubtless subscribe to. Provide a named credible source and you'll be taken seriously.
Until then I'll take your comments as seriously as the McCain paedophile rumours above.
So Obama is a hyper-left-wing-liiiibberal, while at the same time, he is a hyper-right-wing-going-to-impose-sharia-law-on-us-Muslim.
Wow. My neck hurts. If you are actually convinced by these arguments, please do us all a favor and hand in your voter registration card. We can't afford to have the idiocracy voting this year.
Stop copying and pasting the same posts over again. You have no credibility because you called that McCain would be ahead in national polls and he is not. So I refuse to believe anything you say since Nate has been right so far with his analysis.
"What is emerging about Obama's campaign is that everything about him and it, and presumably his administration is being seen through the prism of race."
Please explain this "prism of race" to me. How is the fact that he is black going to affect his abilities as President? Why should that be a consideration? Maybe I am interpreting you incorrectly, but I seriously don't understand your argument at all.
Obama's lead is up to 4 points in today's Gallup tracker (47-43)
Jeez, he is falling apart here.
So now Pete Kent is blaming Obama for the ignorance and racism being used against Obama.
This is the "baggage" that any black presidential candidate would have, but Pete thinks that it is sufficient reason not to vote for one.
And he says the Obama campaign is "adding to the fire" by even responding to the ubiquitous racism.
You see, it's not that Pete is an ignorant racist HIMSELF. It's that OTHER PEOPLE are ignorant racists so THEREFORE we shouldn't elect a black president.
What a joke, Pete.
In the polls, the new national Quinnipiac poll has Obama up 9, 50-41. This poll was conducted during the same time that people like Pete Kent were claiming that Obama's lead was going away, July 8th through 13th.
The newest Gallup tracking poll has Obama up 4 and the Rasmussen tracking poll has Obama up 2.
Kudos to John, I completely agree!
PS. I'm Peter, not pete kent!
Pete Kent: Perhaps it was the hand of God that caused Cincy McCain to dedicate herself to the resuce of orphans in the thrid world and seek to imporve their lives by correcting the cleft palates ofchildren who have no access to medical care.
For shame that some would call her vile names out of political expediency.
That "some" would be her husband.
Barack and Husssein are Arabic names.
This is incorrect. "Barack" is not Arabic, but Swahili. Your post starts as it means to go on... a tissue of lies and distortions from beginning to end.
@ Pete Kent
There has been a lot of discussion about McCain's age and war record. As opposed to the Obama being Muslim smears most of it is actually based on true facts, and as opposed to the Obama being black thing most of it is actually relevant. Still, most attempts at a discussion about these things provoke vehement retorts from the McCain campaign.
The great mass of people want a President of the United States of America and what is emerging about McCain's campaign is that everything about him and it, and presumably his administration is being seen through the prism of age and veteranship.
I do not think even seniors and veterans enjoy all this attention being placed on age and war record.
It is constant and it is a distraction from issues.
Instead of laughing and shrugging off the silly stereotype of him, McCain has contributed to the firestorm and added more gasoline to the fire, further assuring that his is a candidacy firmly rooted in his age and war record.
With so much that the next President has to face, he can ill-afford to be distracted by constant baiting, whether by his own campaign/administration or those who would attack it.
I think the election was lost for McCain some time ago, as it became clear to me how wearying all this discussion of age and war record is.
Many, many people, including those who might be inclined to vote for McCain in the abstract will shun his candidacy because he brings with him that baggage.
That he cannot help it, does not excuse it.
Oh come one. We all know what somebody means when they say a black man is "Arrogant". It means that he's uppity, that he doesn't know his place, that he isn't sufficiently thankful that white people let him get to a position of authority and respect. It's every bit as biased as claiming that Hillary was "too emotional".
Want to know what the opposite of Arrogant is? Meek. Humble. Subservient. The way blacks are "supposed" to act around white people. And that's what the people accusing him of Arrogant are accusing of not acting like.
P.S. Quit with the crap defending the New Yorker. It has nothing to do with intelligence. Satire doesn't work on an intellectual level. It takes an idea and associates it with something repulsive so you won't like the idea. For example:
"The Irish just need to work harder".
"Making the Irish work harder is like making them sell their babies to survive".
"Gee, maybe the Irish actually do have a problem".
Here we have:
"Obama and his wife are dangerous".
"Making Obama President is like putting a black liberationist and Osama bin Laden as President".
"Yeah, like I said, Obama and his wife are dangerous".
It doesn't doesn't take an intellectual to realize that isn't satire.
Satire would be if they showed a Klansman imagining the image.
"Obama and his wife are dangerous".
"Klansmen think making Obama President is like putting a black liberationist and Osama bin Laden as President".
"Oh, well, if Klansmen think that, then I don't agree with it".
Pete:
Ok, if I take that you´re not a racsist I would have to wonder why you consider his race a baggage while Condoleezza Rice would not have a problem with it.
As I have read from your other posts you are getting tired from the race issue and it´s prominence in the election.
Now, would you say that the Obama campaign brought up the race issue? Isn´t it a known fact that a candidate who would run as a black candidate (not as someone who just happens to be semi-black) would surely lose? Wouldn´t Obama be awfully stupid to render himself as a black candidate who would claim the White House to end the racial injustice?
Of course, he didn´t do it. He would like to make the race issue go away - a generic democrat beats a generic republican this year!
So who brought the race issue up? His enemies, and the media who wonder if America is ready for a black president and measure the impact of this or that race-related issue (Jesse Jackson, for example).
And the real írony is that Condoleezza Rice will indeed not have these race-related issues. Her would be-enemies (the democratic party) have already demonstrated to be ready for a black president (at least a majority of them).
@Pete Kent
I will pray for you as well. Everyone could use a little God in their life, especially in time of need. Here's to hoping that God shines some light your way.
Cheers.
Is it just me, or is this Pete Kent fella the official McCain troll for 538.com?
Day after day, post after post, he is always here to "enlighten" us with his divine wisdom of why his chosen one will defeat scary old Barack. His new line of reasoning - "American's don't want a president with racial/cultural baggage" - in other words, for POTUS, only old white men need apply. What a joke.
Pete Kent is not a rational person - he's only here to stir up trouble. Let's stop feeding this troll.
Spot on. I would also add that some people oppose Obama because of the immensitude of his ears. Sad but true.
@mbabigd
Actually, I find his comments amusing considering I know why he's making them. However, if he is in fact serious, then I do feel somewhat sorry for him.
@Pete Kent
Before you go overboard with your partisan love for Cindy McCain, remember that "out of the goodness of her heart" she stole painkillers from her charity.
Also, Barack is Swahili, derived possibly from "Baruch", meaning blessed in Hebrew.
Barack did attend an Islamic school, but was pulled out of it to attend Catholic school. Do some research.
asmodeous: Spot on. I would also add that some people oppose Obama because of the immensitude of his ears. Sad but true.
Perot had the same problem.
Except Pete is serious.
The comments on Daily Kos last night - about the GOP becoming the new Know-Nothing Party - seem quite fitting for our resident troll, Mr. Kent.
As Jesus said: "Weep not for me but for your children and yourselves".
I am sorry that someone here must insert some reality into your lives. You Obama supporters want to live the next few months inside a very comfortable cocoon, licking you chops and counting your chickens.
You do not see the forest for the trees.
Barack Obama has consistently made race the force field around himself to protect his candidacy. I dare not delve into his own personal history which has caused such consternation among large percentages of voters for fear of you all lopping my head off. But facts are facts.
His policy failings aside, his lack of consistency in his positions negated, Barack Obama has asked Americans in my view to cross a bridge too far.
They do not want the next four years to be a dialogue about race relations and racial identity and for racial politics to be the focal point of the next four to eight years.
There is too much important business to be done.
That he has been tarred as the Black Candidate is as much his doing based on his past and his present and the bell once rung cannot be unrung.
This is the fatal flaw in his candidacy and I fully expect it to track in the polls over the present cycle.
Obama's racial identity has become the focal point of the present news cycle and that bodes ill for him.
I don't know if there are any Fark regulars who post here, but do you know who Pete Kent reminds me of?
Bevets
Pete Kent is the Bevets of 538. I bet he even has a pre-made list of talking points for easy cut & paste responses.
I find it sad that this excellent blog is now down to the same partisan crap that i can read on other websides. Some people clearly tried to turn the discussion away from a relevant discourse about polling and election predictions towards a stupid and sometime childish bickering. Hopefully they will get bored eventually and this can return to the excellent source of information and great thoughts that is was before.
jay: Pete Kent is the Bevets of 538.
Does this mean Obama is the tinfoil hat that liberals use to keep McCain out of their brainwaves?
Acting in the spirit of Anon@1:12's hopes, here's the PPP poll of South Carolina:
McCain 45
Obama 39
Barr 5
Undecided 10
Pretty consistent with the 538 projection. A likely McCain win, although if you look at the internals the poll has Obama winning 77% of the African-American vote (which is 29% of the total). A stronger showing with African-American voters would make the state very close indeed!
Yup, I heard on CNN that recent polls have found that as many Democrats think Obama is a Muslim as Republicans.
Nick: did I really say that? Oops- I now lie in fear of a severe ticking off from 'Billy' Burton... and one from 'Tucker' Bounds, too, echoing!
It will go thus: Americans are tired of the divisions and distractions over Senator Obama's ears. They want to know how we are going to end the war in Eye-raq, solve our energy problems, catch Bin Laden's goatee blah blah blah.
Or: Senator Obama's ears have remained consistently the same size throughout the campaign. We repudiate and denounce Asmodeus like he were a piece of stale cheese.
Some such bulloney like that is coming my way.
"if you look at the internals the poll has Obama winning 77% of the African-American vote"
Maybe I'm mis-remembering (and, if so, please correct me), but this seems to be pointed out fairly commonly as a critique of close Southern states. I'm thinking we've seen similar breakdowns in polls of Virginia and NC and maybe GA.
Assuming I'm right about this, is there some reason why 20-30% of African-Americans in these states are likely to support McCain, and if not, is there some reason why polls might mistakenly find this sort of thing?
It is so sad what this site has become. The comments are now no dofferent than the Daily Kos, Huffington post or Town hall.com.
Truly sad.
Is it unfathomable that an AA may be conservative, and thus vote for McCain?
"Is it unfathomable that an AA may be conservative, and thus vote for McCain?"
Only because Kerry won something like 88% of the AA vote in 2004. I'm genuinely curious - are Southern AA voters more conservative and/or more likely to vote Republican than Northern AA voters? Do 2004 exit polls show anything like this?
It seems like a lot of the analysis here that puts a state like NC in play is predicated on an assumption that large black Southern populations will vote 90+% for Obama with record turnout. If Southern blacks aren't as strong in their support of Obama, that would suggest to me that Obama's chances of winning in NC/SC/GA would go down considerably (not that they're all that high in Nate's numbers anyway).
The right's favorite punchline about the cover seems to be, "all humor has it's basis in reality" [sic]. To which I'd ask: what part has the basis in reality? The terrorist part or the terrorist part?
The part where Obama is going to be in the Oval Office.
@Anonymous-1:25
No, it's not unfathomable, just highly unlikely given voting patterns for the last 80 years - since FDR's new deal coalition brought AA into the Democratic Party - and given that this is the first time that an AA is a major party nominee.
Now, if things were reversed and the AA candidate were the Republican (Colin Powell for arguments sake), I wouldn't be surprised to see things closer to 60-40 or 50-50 among AA.
Many of the recent comments in fact related to the topics they were posted in (smears, VP-thread, open thread), but yeah, time to come back the polls ;-).
A 6% difference in SC sounds good for Obama indeed. I question the relatively low number of black support for Obama, especially in such a racially divided state. The difference between hard and soft support that McCain and Obama enjoy, should also favor Obama.
But then there is also the rather high number for Barr. I really cannot see his influence reaching beyond Georgia. At the moment his campaign is invisible. He might save his money for the last weeks but by then the electorate will be extremely polarized already.
The number of undecideds is also a bad sign for Obama. Not all of those will go for McCain, some of them won´t vote at all or they cannot decide between Barr and McCain.
So in short, that poll looks good for Obama if you keep it in perspective. McCain might be forced to invest something there, Obama´s campaign isn´t losing support. But still, in the end I wouldn´t see a real chance there.
Mason -
Let's assume you're correct when you say most of Obama's policies were the same as Clinton's. The BIG difference is how she would have handled the latest economic developments - having the EXPERIENCE to anticipate these situations and knowing the dangers of politicizing issues to appease the far left minority.
matt j.h. i think if you search for it there's still good discussion to be found. but the massive influx of really dumb maligning and partisan talking points is quite disheartening.
Anonymous said...
Is it unfathomable that an AA may be conservative, and thus vote for McCain?
yeah it's not, i agree. there's an interesting problem of resolving one's own personal politics with either a desire to see a race barrier broken or to see it not broken. it's hard to know which factor will be stronger, for both blacks and whites.
Let's look at it this way: in SC in 2004, African-American voters split 85-15 for Kerry. That represented an improvement from 2000 for Bush, who had received 7% that year.
Further, McCain isn't getting 20-30% in SC -- in this poll, he gets 10, Barr gets 6 and 7 are undecided.
I'm not making a projection here -- I'll leave that to Nate. I'm just saying that this poll shows Obama doing slightly worse with Af-Am voters in SC than the typical Democratic presidential candidate and that, should the final result be closer to the average, that would close a lot of the gap with McCain in SC. We'll see in November.
We will wait and see what happens in the polls, as we always do.
I think it is so ridiculous that there is such a high level of personal attack here.
Someone suggests a thesis, a potential pivot point in the election and instead of frank discussion there is name calling and whining complaints from the name callers that there site is being ruined.
I am glad i gace you all something to think about. I hope you find it haunting.
For the rest of the day I will only resond to intelligent, well-founded commentary.
tom-- it's just me talking out of my ass, though i live in the (quasi) South, but i have a feeling blacks in the South may be a little more conservative than other regions, with moderate views on social issues and more liberal views on economic issues. but i would expect black support for black candidates to be stronger in the south because feelings of racial struggle are more prominent. i still think these conflicting goals (political views and voting as a civil rights movement) will keep the polls a little volatile until the election as people try to sort those out.
Indeed, Nick. ;-)
alex s,
What you said. I think this poll shows both candidates what they'd have to do to win. McCain needs to close with undecideds and Barr supporters; Obama needs to close with African-Americans. I think both will happen, which will leave McCain winning, though by a smaller margin than usual in SC.
Still, the fact that Obama has any path to victory at all in SC, a state he certainly doesn't need, isn't a good sign for McCain. McCain is having to defend too many states at once, with almost no chances left to pick up Kerry states.
I love you Pete Kent! Don't listen to all those meanies! You go girl! Ahem... (getting carried away)
By the way, who's this 'Poblano' fellow? He seems to have usurped this blog. Come back Nate, all is forgiven!
Lets just ban Pete Kent. He is free to make his own blog.
Mrs. Kent is just a distraction. Nobody even talks about Nate's posts anymore. They just reply to Mrs. Kent's bullshit.
I like that Barack comes from 'Baruch' in Hebrew comment - you guys do know, I hope, that Hebrew and Arabic are sister languages of the Semitic group? I think his name means 'blessed' (that's in his book), inevitably there'll be a cognate word in Hebrew - much like Shalom and Salaam mean 'peace' so Bara(c)k and Baruch, I guess. 'Obama' is a Kenyan tribal name with accidental Japanese coincidencification.
Pete Kent does have a Bevets-like feel to his posts, but he doesn't link to his talking-points-filled website, and he actually responds differently to separate posts. But he does have that hyper-formal tone and he also seems to think that something becomes true through repetition.
It's always nice to see a good poll out of a state such as SC. Fort Sumpter anyone? Strom Thurmond?
However, I wouldn't put much stock in Obama having a real chance to win there come November. Even if the AA vote % ticks upward for him, I would imagine (though I ultimately might be wrong) that the projected Barr vote will drop significantly.
The fact that we're talking about a state like SC or more seriously, like GA, VA, MT, SD, ND, CO, AK, etc. etc. should be worrisome to the GOP and McCain.
Can you imagine what people would be saying if JMaC was only 6 points down in NY or MA?
First, I'd like to repeat my suggestion that we simply allow Pete Kent to play in his part of the sandbox and leave him alone. The more we engage, the more reason for him to stay.
Two, I am a little disappointed by the turn the comments seem to have taken over the past couple of days. The slow trickle of polls may have something to do with this. However, I have to agree that when the post is more, shall we say, interpretive than analytic, the commenters are just following suit. As this is Polbano's site, I have nothing to say regarding his choice of topics. But I do long for the opportunity to further discuss the data set that went into the state similarity graph.
What I'd like to see is some sort of cooperative project, where we can learn about each other's work. Several of you have alluded to projects you're working on. Perhaps we can discuss this in later thread, once Pete K. has thrown his tantrum and exhausted himself for the day.
So wrong it's unbelievable. The muslim rants are not primarily from the left. It's Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, MIchael Savage, Bill Oreilly, Bill Cunningham, Hugh Hewitt!!!!
Since when did these people live on the left???????
Uh. Help me out: who's this 'Bevets' person you all seem to adore? Not the same guy who 'did' America with Butthead? (joke) Premature: you misspelled Polbano's name.
@Prematurely Grey
Can't agree with you more. Anyway, hopefully Nate will be back with some more data-centric posts shortly. Along those lines, I'm hoping we get a Senate projection update soon.
Can I just say that I at least would appreciate it if Nate branched out from this very narrow subject of election-related data (especially at a time when there is none) - he can tell us his views on life, the universe, pet hates, what gets him up in the mornings et cetera, ad infinitum as much as he likes.
Rasumussen has an interesting article up:
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/obama_leads_bush_by_twenty_but_clinton_does_better_against_mccain
Obama leads Bush 54-34 in a hypothetical race, while Clinton leads McCain 50-42.
asmodeus - Bevets is a fundie troll on the forums of Fark.com. He usually posts in comment threads about hot-button fundie topics (especially evolution) and his favorite catchphrase is "Evolutionism is the tinfoil hat atheists wear to keep God out of their brains."
Look who's featured in the latest UChicago alumni magazine.
http://magazine.uchicago.edu/0878/features/nate_silver.shtml
Prematurely Grey,
I like the idea of a cooperative project. Open-source political modeling?
I also agree that the more rigorous we can keep the analysis on this site, the better.
A threaded comment system or open forum would let those of us interested in quantitative analysis play in our sandbox, and those interested in other topics play in theirs.
I think your assessment is beyond generalized. I think there were a cornicopia of reasons to resist Obama in the primary that had nothing to do with race. It's not just about how candidates vote on issues, it's the means through which they convey their ideology. Obama ran a campaign based on reconciliation and compromise. As a true leftist I find this both intellectually unsound and morally bankrupt. There is nothing to compromise with the right, they are wrong about everything. All that is needed is a solid majority and you can run roughshod over the minority and backward factions of conservatism left in this country.
Put simply, Obama doesn't seem like he's a fighter, or that he's true to his principles. I spotted this in 2004, it's only become more amplified over time.
For the record, I'm now voting for Nader. It has nothing to do with race.
Enjoy your Nader majority. Oh wait. Nevermind.
I would like to say tht I am a Pete Kent fan, and he speaks the truth.
For all youleft wing trolls who want to censor this site, please get an airline ticket for China. Your thinking would fit in nicely there.
Typical left wing response to the other person's thoughts, ban THEM!!!!!!
As far as Obama is concerned, I've never heard of a Christian critisizing another Christian for clinging to their bible.
I want to know who Barack Hussein Obama is and what he stands for, so far I have not seen anything to convince me that he is anything more than a political hack with no experience. As far as being a Christian, I hardly think so.
Wow St. George, that was pretty harsh. A political hack I don't think so, he was a community organizer in Chicago and has been in the Us Senate forover a year. That sounds like experience to me
There is no requirement that a President be a Christian. BEsides, Obama is from a church that preaches a different type of Christianity.
A quick note:
Larry Johnson is a Republican. Always has been.
Dan Riehl is a nutjob wrapped in a moron wrapped in an idiot. For proof, just look at his website. Or don't. Less of that, please.
Some question for the "true" math guys at the site. I´m ok at practice, not theory. The crosstabs for the new MI Rasmussen senate poll: Levin 54-33, 59-36 with leaners.
Levin draws support from 23% of Conservative voters, 74% of Moderate voters, and 92% of Liberal voters. Hoogendyk’s base consists of 65% of Conservatives, 16% of Moderates and 6% of Liberals.
So, solve for it. I wasn´t able to do it, and I think it´s impossible to get to those percentages with the data.
There must be something wrong either with me or with Rasmussen, but you have a) more undecideds in the w/o leaners result as in any ideological subgroup
b) with leaners it gets impossible to solve. Excel suggests 64% moderates, 36% conservatives as CLOSEST to the real percentages, but even that isn´t right.
Did someone say Pete Kent is a designated pro-McCain blog clogger? Given the amount of time that he is devoting to this blog, I would surmise that "Pete" is either unemployed or else employed to do just this kind of "job," though I hardly think anyone would knowingly assign someone who is so consistently illogical or so consistently contradicts himself.
I hope his sponsors are wasting a lot of money on this, however, because it's amazingly unpersuasive.
*sigh* oh St. George ... or perhaps St. Kent ... playing the victim, now? As far as I can tell only one person mentioned banning anyone ... but anyway ... I think you're just upset because you have no substantive - data based - reasons to attack Obama, so you resort to ad hominem and personal attacks that have nothing to do with the reality-based community. Not many people take the 'bait' as it were, and this upsets you.
As Bertrand Russell said, "man is a credulous animal, and must believe something; in the absence of good grounds for belief, he will be satisfied with bad ones."
Prematurely Grey and Modeler,
If you do start up an open source project, please let me (and others) know. I am jonesing for an opportunity to dive into some raw data.
I have a defender or two . . . that's nice to know.
I must be doing something right to provoke such commentary.
It is instructive tho' when I am attacked as "Mrs. Kent" or egged on with comments like "you go, girl".
I maintain that Liberals, errr, excuse me, Progressives (ahem!) are the new Fascists (and Obama their new and improved Adolf Hitler) and it appears that attacking someone based on some perceived masculine deficiency (or whatever is the basis!), is okay as long as it’s done in the guise of defending left wing ideology.
He may be a fag, but he's their fag -- so let's go get him!
Unlike Barack Obama (and the Muslims) I feel no need to cast aspersions on homosexuals, who like the general population run the gamut between good and bad. So I take no real offense and issue no ringing endorsements of my masculinity. To do so would concede the validity of the attacks.
But it does put a lie to the notions that Barack Obama will bring this nation together and heal us of our wounds and divisions.
And feminists take note: your male co-conspirators think by calling someone a girl they are insulting them! How do you feel about that, sweeties?
You are a sorry lot, most of you. Far from intelligent and wholly unfocussed in your thinking.
But fear not, I will remain here to correct you all and keep you on your toes, until I find a better place to troll. . . .still developing . . . .
Rasmus,
You may be on to something there. Perhaps the devil is in the wording:
Levin draws support from 23% of Conservative voters, 74% of Moderate voters, and 92% of Liberal voters. Hoogendyk’s base consists of 65% of Conservatives, 16% of Moderates and 6% of Liberals.
"Draws support" may mean that leaners are included in these figures. "Base" would imply that there are no leaners. If we do that, I get:
43% conservative
23% moderate
35% liberal
Of course, this is approximate as there are rounding errors.
ban kent. freedom of speech does not extend to internets web-blogs.
@ Pete Kent, 3:22
And we have achieved Godwin's Law!! ... oh Pete, you've made us oh so proud!!
As wikipedia relates:
... Goodwin's Law also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies is an adage formulated by Mike Godwin in 1990. The law states:
"As a Usenet (nee Blog) discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
Godwin's Law is often cited in online discussions as a caution against the use of inflammatory rhetoric or exaggerated comparisons, and is often conflated with fallacious arguments of the reductio ad Hitlerum form.
Keep up the "good" work.
An anonymous poster (please leave a pseudonym to make responding easier) asked what my source was for something I never said. I pointed out that Barack is NOT a Muslim now.
As for his Muslim activities as a child in Indonesia, anyone can google that for themselves and go to the Los Angeles Times article giving names of witnesses in Indonesia. Lying about Barack's past won't help Obama undo lies about his current religious status.
You probably the biggest non-issues-related reason for Democratic willingness to smear Obama - he kept Hillary from winning. Some Clinton supporters seem to be so spiteful over this that they're willing to sabotage a candidate who shared over 90% of her platform out of sheer irrational resentment. And they would probably do this regardless of Obama's race.
I don't understand the distinction this blog post makes between "fox news" and "the Hillary Clinton campaign".
To Tybalt --
Barack/Baraka is an Arabic name meaning blessed (similar to a Hebrew word for blessed). Hussein is Arabic for "handsome one." I don't know what the name Obama is.
Barack is most assuredly not a Swahili name and you should not spread such misinformation.
And now Anon at 333 attempts to ban speech. Another liberal about face.
This is the Fascism I have been warning about: the left will agitate for freedom only so long as it serves their purpose and puts them in power. Once there the crackdown begins.
Perhaps I should have better comapred Obama to Lenin???
Pete Kent. Good work. You are following the model of trying to avoid any substantive conversation to a T. If we have intelligent discourse, your candidate stands no chance, so you are wise to stand here and attempt to stir up discussion about anything but what matters.
Bravo. I hope you fail, but you've got a future in conservative politics if you choose to pursue it.
Regrettably, you seem to have some truly despicable viewpoints (or at least are comfortable spreading them), so I truly do wish you would just shove it or bag the hate speech and join the intelligent conversation.
Hurray!
Pete Kent, because of your hard trolling work, Godwin's Law has once again proven to be correct!
Pete Kent is a Jewish Muslim Adolf Stalin.
modeler,
1) I love your posts. Their are almost always connected to the model (lol), which is a good thing here.
Maybe we could get into contact, why not write me an email to rasmus.pianowski@googlemail.com ?
2)
43% conservative
23% moderate
35% liberal
Sorry, but that gives me roughly 59 for Levin, which is correct, and 33,7 for Hoogendyk, even with the rounding error. He needs 36, or at least 35,5. Impossible
The vast majority of Barack's critics on the right are not opposed to him because of his race -- they would have gladly voted for Colin Powell in 1996 or 2000. Polls in 1995 showed that Powell would have crushed Clinton by 15 points. Clinton was so relieved when Powell did not run due to his wife's concerns about his safety.
Peter Kent: You better stop comparing at all, and maybe also realise that what is going on here does less relate to Obama, but mostly to some people feeling disturbed and annoyed.
Rasmus / Modeler: Interesting points. There must be something wrong with the Rasmussen calculation. The 2004 exit polls (you can look them up under "other resources" on the left-hand side column, right under the probabilities by state) have 24% liberals, 45% moderates and 31% conservatives in MN. With and around these values, there seems to be no way to make the shares match.
Open Source: I am with it. Would be particularly interested in refining the regression, and comparing it with polls' crosstabs, in order to get indications on specific demographies' shifts and reactions to new events / issues.
Rasmus,
Re-read my post. I suspect the "base" support is the support without leaners, which would be 33%. Tricky, eh?
Thanks for the complement. Perhaps we should put together, with Prematurely Grey and Counsellorben, a group of old-schoolers who are here for quality analysis. We can discuss more later -- I'll be out for the next several hours.
Babynames.com lists "Barack" as an African name meaning "blessed." The Hebrew form of the name is "Baruch."
This is a great example of something that can be looked up very simply by anybody interested in finding out the truth for themselves. But the media allows stories like this to have a life of their own. And the public is too lazy; they'll just accept whichever version is most convenient for them.
Most days I don't know who is more to blame, the media or us, the public, for some of the idiotic things we Americans believe. I guess the blame should be shared equally. There's only one solution. We have to take some responsibility and go seek the truth for ourselves.
I've asked this before, but does anyone have a Firefox plugin that will block all of Pete Kent's posts?
Hey, Jim S:
I have tried to keep my posts on point and on target, but cannot resist the hypocrasy of those who would attack me. I do not attack anyone here personally, that would be impossible they are all nameless and faceless.
I try to make substantive conversation and am dealt non-sensical ad hominem attacks.
The whole Liberal = Fascist thing is nothing new and was recently the subject of an important new book analyzing how anti-democratic and, yes, fascistic FDR was.
What started this this morning was my provocative post on the impact of race on the election (on another thread), but repeated in another formula above.
Rather than discuss my central thesis: that electing a racially charged candidate like Obama to the presidency will be seen as risky and distractive to many people, personal attacks are levelled against me. The next thing you know I will be accused of having a hook nose!
My statment from this morning was (in case any of you missed it):
"My view is that there is a trend brewing in this election and that it bodes ill for Obama.
The lead story last night on the cable news was all about the New Yorker cover. A cover that everyone understood was about satire, yet produced such consternation among Obama supporters and within his camp. You couple that with the hue and cry over Jesse Jackson's remarks, which may have induced some sympathy for Obama and you think back to the other sustained narrative of this campaign: Reverend Wright and Trinity United Church and you have the makings of a problem.
The American people are by and large not racist and this election will not be fought over the hearts and minds of such benighted fools as they.
However, the great mass of people want a President of the United States of America and what is emerging about Obama's campaign is that everything about him and it, and presumably his administration is being seen through the prism of race.
I do not think even Black people enjoy all this attention being placed on racial identity. It is constant and it is a distraction from issues.
Instead of laughing and shrugging off the silly stereotype of them on the New Yorker cover, the Obama’s contributed to the firestorm and added more gasoline to the fire, further assuring that his is a candidacy firmly rooted in his racial identity.
With so much that the next President has to face, he can ill-afford to be distracted by constant race baiting, whether by his own campaign/administration or those who would attack it.
I think the election was lost for Obama last night, as it became clear to me how wearying all this racial discussion and politics are.
Many, many people, including those who might be inclined to vote for Obama in the abstract will shun his candidacy because he brings with him a lot of baggage.
That he cannot help it, does not excuse it.
He may have blazed a trail and we can all get out our demons in 2008, but McCain will be President and then pave the way for Condoleezza Rice or Michael Steele next time around.
That is the inflection point of which I spoke.
Expect this to show up strongly in the polls taken on Wednesday.
Not good for Obama that this is NAACP week."
Admittedly, it is speculation on my aprt, but then attack it from an empirical point of view.
If you can't, then shut up!
And get off my lawn!
modeler,
I´m pretty sure you read dozens of Rasmussen memos. Those are horribly worded and screwed up all the time, but it would be REALLY weird to give numbers for Levin with leaners and for Hoogendyk without.
I just think they tried to find synonyms.
lol hello my name is Pete Kent.
For whatever it's worth: I lived in Malaysia for two years, went to the local Malay-language public school, where one of the subjects was Islamic Religion, and had some private study of Qur'an.
I'm sure if I were to run for President, I'd be accused of being a crypto-Al Qaida member, but I'm actually a liberal Jewish American. And just as liberals of previous generations were proud to be called "nigger-lovers" by bigots, I'm proud to be called a "Muslim-lover."
Having great Muslim friends doesn't make me a supporter of terrorism, because the Islam I was taught tells us that terrorism and murder are crimes against Allah. Islam in Malaysia and Indonesia is generally very moderate and tolerant, compared to the way the religion is usually practiced in the Middle East, North Africa, and South Asia - and especially Saudi Arabia.
It's a shame that Obama's experience of living in Indonesia and learning about Islam is not widely considered an asset. It IS an asset, because the relationship between the U.S. and the Muslim world is one of the most important foreign policy issues in the world today, and when ignorant people like G.W. Bush (and apparently, John McCain, who can't tell a Sunni from a Shia) fuck it up, the world is put at much greater risk.
It will never cease to amuse me how loud mouthed trolls sniveling about their "freedom of speech!" being banned and crying "censorship!" fail to grasp even the most basic of distinctions between privately run websites and public institutions.
Nate's website is not the US government. It can enact any user guidelines it desires and ban commenters if it sees fit. This does not mean your 'freedom of speech' has been violated.
Though I suppose grasping this kind of grade school civics level of differentiation would get in the way of their bloviating tantrums about what 'Chinese communists' we are (but wait! - I thought we were freedom hating fascists! Are we Nazis or Leninists? It's so hard to tell anymore!). For a group which holds so many cherished high school freshmen Ayn Randian ideals of personal responsibility, they sure do enjoy playing the oppressed victim.
OK, I'll do my best to just ignore the useless mudslinging and urge you to take a look at some hard numbers...
I'd like to continue the discussion started by Tom and ajb way up in this thread about Obama's strangely low numbers among African Americans, in the new SC poll as well as in several previous national and state polls.
It indeed seems strange that Obama gets no more than 77% of African Americans in SC, considering the fact that Kerry got 85%. I find it highly unlikely that African-American voters who supported Kerry would find Obama too liberal.
Take a look at some of Kerry's 2004 exit poll numbers among African-American voters:
National: 88
DC 97
AR 94
TN 91
AL 91
LA 90
MS 90
MO 90
NY 90
IL 89
MD 89
GA 88
KY 87
MN 87
VA 87
FL 86
NV 86
NC 85
SC 85
OH 84
PA 84
TX 83
WV 83
NJ 82
CA 81
WA 73
OK 72
Two observations/questions:
1. In just two of these states Kerry's share of African Americans were in the 70's, where Obama now seems to be in many polls. (The 2004 WA AA sample ought to have been around 40-45 people, and OK might be an outlier as well.) I would have imagined that almost all African Americans that came out for Kerry (and many that didn't) would have made their minds up by now, supporting a viable African American candidate for president, and I can't really see any explanation why they haven't. Can you? Or can you find a likely source of error in the polling?
2. Kerry's span, ignoring the outliers, seem to have ranged from around 80 to around 90 percent. This could seem like rather consistent numbers. But looking at it the other way, it means that Bush's share of the AA vote is subject to huge variations. And it doesn't seem to correlate with the overall results in the state. It's about twice as large in CA than in NY, both solidly blue states, and more than twice as large in WV than in AR, both clearly red states. If any pattern can be seen, it seems to be that the Deep South states AL, LA and MS all have rather high numbers for Kerry. Is there an obvious general explanation for the other variations that I'm simply missing? And can the state-to-state variations in AA voting from 2004 be expected to be consistent over time?
OK, I'll do my best to just ignore the useless mudslinging and urge you to take a look at some hard numbers...
I'd like to continue the discussion started by Tom and ajb way up in this thread about Obama's strangely low numbers among African Americans, in the new SC poll as well as in several previous national and state polls.
It indeed seems strange that Obama gets no more than 77% of African Americans in SC, considering the fact that Kerry got 85%. I find it highly unlikely that African-American voters who supported Kerry would find Obama too liberal.
Take a look at some of Kerry's 2004 exit poll numbers among African-American voters:
National: 88
DC 97
AR 94
TN 91
AL 91
LA 90
MS 90
MO 90
NY 90
IL 89
MD 89
GA 88
KY 87
MN 87
VA 87
FL 86
NV 86
NC 85
SC 85
OH 84
PA 84
TX 83
WV 83
NJ 82
CA 81
WA 73
OK 72
Two observations/questions:
1. In just two of these states Kerry's share of African Americans were in the 70's, where Obama now seems to be in many polls. (The 2004 WA AA sample ought to have been around 40-45 people, and OK might be an outlier as well.) I would have imagined that almost all African Americans that came out for Kerry (and many that didn't) would have made their minds up by now, supporting a viable African American candidate for president, and I can't really see any explanation why they haven't. Can you? Or can you find a likely source of error in the polling?
2. Kerry's span, ignoring the outliers, seem to have ranged from around 80 to around 90 percent. This could seem like rather consistent numbers. But looking at it the other way, it means that Bush's share of the AA vote is subject to huge variations. And it doesn't seem to correlate with the overall results in the state. It's about twice as large in CA than in NY, both solidly blue states, and more than twice as large in WV than in AR, both clearly red states. If any pattern can be seen, it seems to be that the Deep South states AL, LA and MS all have rather high numbers for Kerry. Is there an obvious general explanation for the other variations that I'm simply missing? And can the state-to-state variations in AA voting from 2004 be expected to be consistent over time?
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/04/03/poll.black.president/index.html
76% of Americans say that America is ready for a black president. The number would be higher if Blacks themselves wouldn´t be so pessimistic about it.
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/06/30/powell_is_favorite_in_online_vp_poll/
The online poll that had Colin Powell as the favorite VP pick on either side of the aisle. While an online poll probably still plays to a younger, more tolerant audience it is still striking that a ticket of 2 blacks is considered.
As Mike H. already said it, Colin Powell was a people´s favorite presidential candidate. My own source for that, I have to admit, is the first book of Michael Moore.
One also has to applaud the current government for having included Gen. Powell and Ms. Rice in their cabinet. I think it has made the issue of race much less controversial, and the possibility of "constant race baiting" a thing of the past.
If I was running this blog I would make membership a requirement for commenting. I did this on mine.This blog would be better if it did not succumb to the current invasion.
Re Obama's vote among AAs:
While I do find Obama's poll numbers in SC to be surprising, they may reveal something of a potential weakness in his candidacy.
For years folks have assumed, mostly correctly, that the AA vote is monolithically Democrat and in a year when we have the first AA nominee it would be overwhelmingly so. Indeed the recent Quinnipiac poll bears this out.
But one summer does not make a swallow, and one poll does not forecast an election.
At the risk of starting another firestorm, Obama confronts problems within the AA community:
1) He has given them precious little individual attention;
2) He has lectured and looked down on young men in that community;
3) He is running as the product of a white family from Kansas and has ostensibly run away from his AA roots;
4) There is a segment of the AA population that fears his election b/c it will forever end the culture of entitlement and the underpinnings of affirmative action on which many of them falsely believe they depend.
Jesse Jackson was widely criticized for his “hot mike” statements last week, but it would be a mistake to dismiss them out of hand or as an isolated rant.
One thing this election has revealed is how culturally and intellectually divergent large segments of the AA community are from the white power structure. It was that glimpse inside "the most segregated hour in America".
What the Revered Wright revelations made plain is that there is a lot of aberrant thinking in the Black community and its values and thought processes are vastly different from those of the majority culture.
Who among us would have taken it as Gospel that Black people would buy into the notion that AIDS was invented by the US government to kill them? That America itself was to be blamed for 911. And that Black separatism was a worthy goal?
Until this year, I would have thought such views were fringe views and representative at best of a tiny sliver of Black thought.
Now I see that there is much wider acceptance of such views and a willingness to embrace figures that were shadowy or outright enemies of this nation (Farrakhan, Quadafi).
Reverend Wright dismissed Barack Obama as just another politician willing to say anything to get elected. I suspect he still remains on the van of a significant movement and many who follow him are not 100% behind Obama.
Again, I doubt this polling deficit will hold up and AAs will return to the fold, but their enthusiasm is open to question, and turnout may disappoint.
It did in Philadelphia during the primary.
Hey Pete,
(From Obama's CNN interview commenting on the cartoon):
"It's a cartoon ... and that's why we've got the First Amendment," Obama said. "And I think the American people are probably spending a little more time worrying about what's happening with the banking system and the housing market and what's happening in Iraq and Afghanistan, than a cartoon. So I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about it."
Soo...we can expect your vote this fall, right?
Regarding the numbers of black support, could the latest Jesse Jackson (born in SC) incident play a role in it? I wish I knew more about it, but maybe the black community of South Carolina is still rooted in an older, more controversial tradition.
Kerry´s support seems roughly even across the nation, there are spikes in the heavily politicized Washington D.C. and the Clinton-State Arkansas, while Washington state might have a totally different black "mindset" and Oklahoma could be an outlier (or perhaps the evangelical movement was more important to blacks there than the civil rights movement).
So, while Kerry counted on the traditional democratic support from the black minority, Obama might be held to a different standard by Blacks themselves.
@Eli,
Cal Thomas did call it a "terrorist fist jab" on Human Events. He very quickly edited it out. I found the original version of the article in Google Cache, but I'm sure it's gone now.
To clarify, this was in the article itself. A whole paragraph was removed. It was not a reader comment.
If you know anything at all about American politics, you'd know that there's not a snowball's chance in hell that Obama will receive less than 90% of the African American vote in any state. Anybody who thinks otherwise is engaging in fantasy.
I agree with Juris and would peg the over/under at 95%. The turnout will be the variable.
See my earlier post @4:53.
Obama's black support is ERODING now that the American people learn that Barack Muhammed Hussein Jihadist O'bama is a Communist Muslim.
I expect by Sunday that McCain will have won the election from early votes by 75 points.
I am sure that Pete Kent, troll though he is, did not post that last thing. lol
Pete:
"4) There is a segment of the AA population that fears his election b/c it will forever end the culture of entitlement and the underpinnings of affirmative action on which many of them falsely believe they depend."
How dare you. This is the despicable stuff I was talking about. You are a racist, flat and simple and/or you will stoop to using other people's racist nature to get their vote. Either way, if you want to claim that you don't make personal attacks, yet you will pin these feelings on an entire segment of the American population, then you write with skill that belies your utter ignorance. You make 3 lucent points and then come live with this as number 4? It's so far out there, the opinions can't really be true, so how much of it do you believe? The people whose votes you are trying to persuade with your hate speech (i.e. the ones that believe it) are not the type to comment on blogs about projecting the outcome of the election, so please just do yourself and your country a big favor and stop spreading opinions you can't possibly believe to be true.
It's a despicable act and it's shameful and whether or not you recognize it to be true, the personal attacks you are receiving as a result are the product of the utterly disgusting views you hold. If you believe what you type, you are the lowest of the low and attempting to capitalize on the ignorance of hateful people for political gain (yours or someone you desire to have it) has unfortunately been the status quo for way too long. I do apologize if you feel attacked, but your general attitude and behavior has been tolerated for too long. You simply do not deserve a voice if that's the manner in which you use it. Go stand on a street corner where people can more easily ignore you. This is where people come for intelligent discourse and your presence disrupts that.
At any rate, the reality is our country is residing on the tolerant and intelligent side of things right now. The majority strongly condemns racism, so your tactics are unlikely to work. It's just annoying.
Jim S:
I am not here to persuade. We all have our minds made up here!
You may think my comment or reasoning to be dispicable, but there are many in the AA community who like the leg up they have been given and don't want Barack Obama pulling the ladder up behind him.
Indeed him himself has suggested that affirmative action needs to be re-examined so that privileged AAs like his daughters won't benefit.
Again, don't kill the messenger, you may learn something from him!
Dan Reihl: "But much of that came from Hillary and Co. not the right."
False dichotomy, a typical form of right wing dishonesty.
Pete:
The thought that they, on average, have a leg up is completely insane. It's that view that is completely out of line.
If it were easier for a black man to get ahead in America, why is a white man always President? Why are they the majority of the CEOs and executives? You purport views that are contrary to the facts. Evidence clearly suggests that being a white man is the easiest path to success in this country. You choose to subtly explain it by implying inferiority. It's disgusting.
Whine, whitey, whine.
The whole core philosophy of the "whitey" smear is disgusting. It is pure racism to believe that after four hundred years of slavery, lynching, flogging, apartheid and oppression that there's something wrong with African-Americans who act anyway other than grateful for the treatment they have received at the hands of white America. African-Americans should be mad, they have a right to be mad. If I didn't think Michelle Obama wasn't a little mad about racism, that would make her a doormat. This is a racist country. It's slowing getting better but we have an incredibly long way to go.
"Liberal = Fascist thing is nothing new and was recently the subject of an important new book analyzing how anti-democratic and, yes, fascistic FDR was."
Jonah Goldberg's writing is "important?" It'd never even be published if his mom weren't Lucianne.
The whole thing supports my thesis as relayed elsewhere that all of this race and Muslim baiting is enervating the public and they will soon tire of the baggage that Obama will bring to the Presidency.... We want a leader who can lead us, not someone who will be constantly moored in squabbles over his race and ancestry.
pete kent is exactly right. The American people are sick and tired of watching Obama deal with all the right-wing bullshit. Running on the Democratic ticket was a major blunder on his part.
The Democrats always seem to be mired in conflict with mudslinging, corrupt politicians and I think the voters are going to say "enough" this year and bring about a Republican landslide.
As an older voter very interested in this election. I found this website and have followed it for months. I liked the comments as they were into more of what Nate is about... the analytical side of all of this. The conversation with the help of the Mc Cain/ Bush worshiping crowd if fairly unbearable and I was at one time able to glean information here. Why can this not be a polling information place is there not plenty of other conservative places where people can go to curse Obama? Seems that Huff Po had an article that listed all those blogs. They should be attractive to those looking for like minded people without the skills to read or write of much except rote allegations. There is much to learn in this election. It is hystorical and we can change our country back to where we once were. Being respectful was something we were taught as kids. let us read about the real things
I'm going to be as clear as I can be because I intend to say this once: Do not respond to me.
Most of you are aware that my posts are intellectually dishonest and yet you respond anyway. If you are willing to show off your sophistication by knocking around intellectual low-hanging-fruit just to please your own vanity, then trolls like me win.
I mentioned above that I hoped you found my posts haunting. I'd like to rephrase that: I hope you find it annoying. If I can get people's energy devoted to demonstrating the stupidity of my theses (which is a waste of time as it is self-evident) then that's a victory for me and McCain. If I can wear people out by making them walk the baby steps of demonstrating that I'm essentially blaming Obama for being black, then that's a victory for me and John McCain.
We want you distracted, annoyed, worn out, and demoralized. How better to keep the Republican party's boot on your necks and the body bags coming in from Iraq?
Do not reply to me. Do not reply to this message. Act as if I am not here.
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