7.12.2008

Running (Mate) to the Center [UPDATED]

Chris Bowers has a thoughtful entry up at OpenLeft that chronicles the progress of the "Barack Obama is moving to the center" narrative. Chris's argument is that (i) it is Obama's "fault" that this happened, rather than just some media spin that might be applied to any Democrat, and (ii) it's a point of discourse the Obama campaign would rather avoid. I tend to agree with Chris on his first point and meet him halfway on the second: I don't think the Obama campaign really minds the "Obama is moving to the center" narrative, but I'm sure they very much do mind its second-cousin, "Obama is a flip-flopper".

In any event, some of the ensuing discussion has focused on how this plays into Obama's selection of a Vice President. I'd think it now becomes more important for Obama to avoid a selection that appears like a centrist pander. Earlier this week, I argued that Evan Bayh was a fairly likely choice because he seemed to fit the Obama campaign's general disposition to play it safe. But that may be precisely what Obama wants to avoid: the appearance of having played it safe. If someone like Sam Nunn is the choice -- and to an only slightly smaller extent with Bayh -- Obama risks these three related notions ("playing it too safe", "moving to the center", "flip-flopper") gaining traction. Let's examine three of the left's favorite choices for Vice President in light of this landscape:

John Edwards

John Edwards has this very helpful attribute going on where he is perceived by liberals as liberal but by moderates as moderate. His selection would certainly fire up the base and the netroots, but would not risk the "two most liberal Senators" problem that you might get with someone like Jack Reed.

The optics of picking him, however, are in some other ways problematic. Firstly, Obama would obviously have linked himself with John Kerry. And second, Edwards has some flip-flop problems of his own, having moved from being a center-left Senator to a mainline-left candidate in 2004 to a progressive-left candidate in 2008. This theme was never fully exposed in the primaries, because by the time that Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton got around into attack mode, they only really had one another to worry about. But the right will use it, particularly as it concerns Edwards' vote on the Iraq War, and it could ricochet in some dangerous ways on Obama.

Kathleen Sebelius

Sebelius is another politician who comes across as more moderate than she actually is. Perhaps the ultimate test of political acumen is the extent to which someone can continue to govern and win election while staking out a different point on the political spectrum than their state or district has as its default. There are plenty of Democratic governors in red states, and Republican governors in blue states, but almost invariably they are centrists. Kathleen Sebelius is not really a centrist -- she is liberal -- and yet, she was re-elected in Kansas by a 17 point margin. She accomplishes this (i) by tending to emphasize "common ground" issues like education where public opinion does not fall neatly along a left-right spectrum, and (ii) through her calm, comforting and somewhat dispassionate demeanor. She's sneaky-smooth. If the Republicans try and portray Sebelius as some kind of radical feminist, it will blow up in their faces, just as it has to many of her opponents in Kansas.

Ordinarily, it would seem very gutsy for the first African-American ever to win his party's nomination to also select a female Vice President. But because Hillary Clinton was the opponent that Barack Obama defeated to win the nomination, the optics are more complicated. Does it seem like a pander to Hillary Clinton supporters if you pick another woman? Or, because some in the Clinton camp would be unhappy if Obama picked another woman, does that ironically make the decision seem gutsier and more assertive? Here's the thing: put some of those Clinton crazies on Fox News and have them gripe very loudly about how dare Obama pick another woman. Is this actually going to make the average Fox News viewer, who has little regard for Hillary Clinton in the first place, less inclined to support Obama? You tell me, but I'll bet to some of them, it makes Sebelius seem more acceptable by comparison.

Anyway, there would undoubtedly be a number of psychological undercurrents if Obama picked Sebelius -- I'm just not sure we know as much as we think we do about how they'd all play out. But Sebelius would certainly make Obama's critics on the left happy, and I don't think she'd look like a pander.

[EDIT: What I'm arguing, I guess, is that if there is some kind of backlash, there will also be a backlash to that backlash, because the notion that "if not Hillary, all other women are ruled out" is fundamentally grotesque and will be critiqued by all sorts of different parties on the left and the right. This is one of those cases, like in the recent Jesse Jackson faux pas, where the right-wing media could actually wind up helping Obama, because it allows them to bash two of their favorite targets: Hillary Clinton and the (very misguided kind of) political correctness that informs that line of thinking. Throw the PUMAs to the lions, in other words.]

Wesley Clark

But here's the really interesting one. A month ago, picking Wesley Clark would have seemed like a fairly safe choice -- someone who allows you to check the "foreign policy" and "liked by Clinton supporters" boxes. It might have seemed, in other words, like a pander.

But because of the Face the Nation dust-up, all of the sudden it would send a very different message. It would say: we're going to stand our ground, we're not going to be so worried about being politically correct, and we're taking it right to you. Isn't that a fairly optimal message for Obama to send out given the present narrative?

I still think there are some risks with Clark. You put the foreign policy issue front and center, and you maybe give McCain a little bit of a running start by recalling his experience as a POW. But it would sure put a taser blast on the flip-flop narrative.

UPDATE: Quick thoughts on a couple of additional candidates. One, Chris Dodd is not going to be the pick. Absolutely not. I'd lay 100-1 odds against it. Chris Dodd did a favor to Obama in the primaries by coming out and endorsing him relatively early. Obama is doing a favor to Chris Dodd by listing him as a potential Veep choice, which is meant to connote that the Countrywide scandal does not make him politically unacceptable. But the fact is that while the Countrywide scandal probably does not make Chris Dodd so politically unacceptable as to render him unelectable as one of Connecticut's two senators, it probably does render him sufficiently politically unacceptable in the near-term to be the Democrats' one and only Vice Presidential nominee. Why would you put an issue like that on the table? What other overwhelming positives does Dodd have to counteract it?

Jack Reed? Reed is a former paratrooper and Army Ranger and used to teach at West Point. But here's the problem with Jack Reed: I'm not sure that you want to make the foreign policy fight front and center unless you're pretty sure you can win it (or at least fight it to a draw). The irony of the whole Wesley Clark thing is that Americans really aren't all that concerned with the service record of their President. We have, after all, elected a draft dodger to the White House in four elections running. So it's not enough to have played the part: I think you have to look the part. Wesley Clark and Jim Webb look the part; I don't think Jack Reed, who is somewhat less skilled as a political cage-fighter, quite does. Jack Reed is a blank slate to 93 percent of the population, and I think once it's filled in, more people will see "liberal senator from Rhode Island" than "decorated veteran and foreign affairs expert".

Tim Kaine
, on the other hand, whom Al Giordano thinks might have the upper hand, seems fairly plausible. Kaine is the new Evan Bayh: the first name on the list with no obvious red flag. Why isn't Evan Bayh the new Evan Bayh? Because he's too safe, which, if you follow my logic, actually makes him less safe.

Ed Rendell, who made Robert Novak's short list? I actually find him to be somewhat viable, precisely because I find his biggest purported downside -- his tendency to be glib and politically incorrect -- to in fact be advantageous to a candidate (Obama) who can sometimes seem calculating and overcautious. What the Obama people need to figure out is whether he can turn the whole Archie Bunker shtick on and off, or whether it's intrinsic to his personality. If the former, he deserves serious consideration.

And, of course, we'd be remiss if we didn't mention Brian Schwetizer, whose utility has only increased as energy has become more of a wedge issue.

123 comments

Anonymous said...

Nate go over to Al's (of the Field fame) web site. He says Obama's VP will be Gov. Kaine of VA. What are your thoughts on Kaine in terms of playing it safe?

SarahLawrenceScott said...

I very much agree with this post! To me, Sebelius is the right choice for nipping the "just another pol" thing in the bud. To most, choosing her wouldn't seem safe, liberal, or (thanks to the Hilary interaction) like tokenism. It would primarily seem authentic; someone he could campaign with and govern with.

Sebelius also gives a bonus on the rebound: if the pick is seen as authentic, it helps define Obama as a sneaky-smooth calm, comforting, dispassionate liberal who emphasizes common round issues that don't fall neatly along a left-right spectrum. (All of that, of course, is from Nate's description of Sebelius.) All of that plays into the disparate views of Obama and ends up with something understandable that a lot of people can support. Is he a liberal? Yes (he says progressive). Does he emphasize common ground issues? Yes. Is he calm, comforting, and dispassionate? OK. Sneaky-smooth? He can live with that, if it's seen as going with authentic beliefs and programs.

I didn't start out supporting the Sebelius option, but I've come around to it in the past few weeks.

Anonymous said...

It doesn't really matter where Obama is drifting - center - left - even far right. Both the economy and the foreign policy environment are unraveling so fast right now that by inauguration day, whoever is prez will have to spend 100 days at the drawing board, needing to reinvent every substantive policy position from scratch.

dan said...

I think a bigger problem with picking Edwards, who has many strengths, is that the media will pan the decision. The media does not respect Edwards because of his haircut, or something, and, besides they've "been there, done that" with him in 2004. You need to throw the media a bone, because they're spoiled children.

I think both Sebelius and Clark would be great choices, and throwing Clark out there would sure look ballsy. That's a good thing.

Kaine is ok, but my sense is he is a bit lacking in public experience and is not a great speaker. In fact, he looks like Webb/Warner substitute.

Another ballsy choice? Sherrod Brown. From Ohio, liberal, awesome on the economy. The Governor of OH is a Dem, so we wouldn't lose a seat. That would put the economy front and center, reenergize the netroots, and maximize pressure on McCain to pour everything he's got into Ohio.

William said...

Why not Brian Schweitzer? He and Obama would be an amazing team; a great pair of post-partisan progressives.

Mainer said...

Nate,

Do you think there is a seasonable effect in polling? I've heard it hypothesized that in the summer it is harder for pollsters to find people with children who may be on vacation as well as young adults. Thus, the argument goes, polls will underestimate their place in the electorate and whatever their views tend to be (in this case, pro-Obama) will show up less in the overall poll numbers, thus bringing down the total Obama support reported.

Does this sound reasonable? Is there evidence for a seasonal effect? Perhaps you could address this in a post sometime.

Anonymous said...

a) Paul Rosenberg's series of post on the subject of Edwards is definative of why he should the choice. SInce this is a polling site, I am a bit surprised you didn't mention the head to heads, and how he out polls Sebelius. He's brand the public knows. This brands helps reinforce Obama's cred by a large factor. I also note the rather bizzare comparator to 2004, while missing that Edwards just got through running a strong third in the 2008 primary.

Here's one of Paul's diaries:

http://www.openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=6836

Incidentally, in match ups against Rendell of PA in PA, he outperforms him. He outperform or ties Sebelius in her own state. He outperforms as I remember other governors as well when they are placed on the various tickets. If you have a co unter argument, please provide it. Please provide an argument that doesn't rely on claims of name id, which doesn't make sense when one compared to again Sebelius in her own state.

b) Sebelius has other problems other than the fact she's a liberal in her state, but not if you compare her to the national view of what that term means. The biggest problem she faces is that she is a) boring b) doesn't appear to know how to make the case on a national level. In short, why play our c or d game when you got other stronger choices. I have yet, by the way, to see anyone provide me with a checklist of what makes Sebelius so liberal outside of abortion and local state issues. Explain this to me like I am a low information voter. Because you can be sure that she will have to be introduced to the public. In her one test on the national state, she came out worse than Kaine of Va. That's saying something. I donated to Kaine, but I wouldn't want him within 200 yards of the VP nomination.

c) Clark isn't out of the running to me or he shoulnd't be. The fact is he came out that situation more well liked, not less. Only in the Democratic mindset is what he did a lose. Sometimes- and this is something that Reagan understood- you win by apparently losing in the short term. People respect and came to respect Clark precisely because he took McCain the myth machine on. The american people would like that. It's not left or right- its the character reinforcement that Clark would bring. That he's progressive is added bonus.

Karl said...

The problem with that is that the VP selection is a huge process were TONS of things have to be factored in. I'd love Sebelius but I honestly don't think he can risk doing that beacuse it would piss off the Clinton wing so much. Clark isn't going to be the choice beacuse he is HORRIBLE at message disipline (something that the Obama team very much values) and Edwards is only slightly more likely then Gore.

IMO Jack Reed WOULD be a good pick. Sure he's a liberal but he's also a Catholic Vet who attended Westpoint. It would be hard to paint him as some kind of peacenik. He would help with the base, with the swing voters, is good on TV and is trusted by Obama. He just make sense.

Anonymous said...

Another ballsy choice? Jesse Jackson!

Stephen said...

Yeah Nate--

I've often thought someone who reinforces and cheerleads Obama's message is a better choice and therefore more likely than someone who contrasts either his resume or geographic appeal. So Kathleen Sebelius would work fine-- she's a relatively new voice to the national political players and she seems to have a good take on things. Haven't heard that much out of her this election, so if she's coming in line for the job I'd expect her to try out that role as a more prominent surrogate on the news rounds.

On this note, the person I would put money on is Bill Richardson. He has a full resume, but has been quite a prominent Obama cheerleader for the past several months and doesn't sound inauthentic. He makes it sound like he legitimately believes in Obama's resume and can endorse that based on his own solid resume. The "two minorities" thing is negligible-- with two American sounding names and a Spanish/American look, it will be a much smaller hurdle than what people will have already had to cross to accept Obama. Maybe he wouldn't help win "working class whites" but I don't think there will be any tricking them into thinking they're actually electing a white guy from Indiana if Evan Bayh is the running mate, etc. I think the believable, compelling, and well-spoken first surrogate is a better VP choice gameplan than any number of "balancing" acts others are proposing. Democratic insiders might have been underwhelmed by his primary performance, but he's still a pretty new face to all of the mainstream public, and could help champion the new kind of politics message. Does he seem too safe to others? I don't know, I think the press might still take it as pretty ballsy given some of the previous detractions that seem to be their common wisdom. People will also read into a political snub to the Clintons which, I doubt would hurt him much in the long run, but would also make it seem more ballsy.

Anyway, that's my vote.

Lupercal said...

I'm thrilled with this post! I've heard about Kathleen for at least 7 months now, and i've always thought since then that she's the most eminently qualified woman to team up with Obama. And i've gotten really tired of the media narrative of angering clinton supporters. oftentimes, it's just a media creation, and people take cues on to what should offend them. so, it might possibly take foot for the sole reason. i don't need to go over her business qualifications and chemistry with obama. One small little thing that's potential problem is that the right has learned to think of her in terms of Abortion. there's a possibility that they might start being really loud on the subject and that's one that'll resonate with the mainstream media because a lot of kansas media has reported on the issue. and besides the lack of foreign policy experience, and the fact that she might not really shine on the presidential debates (one needs a sharp wit and tongue), im really fired up about her, and im not nearly a liberal. (can't envision myself as such, but i find her the most moderate politician nowadays.) Other than her, im really taken in with Brian Schweitzer, but i've been actively looking and i can't really find anything of great value as to what pertains to potential gains and losses in choosing him. Please anyone help...:)

Diggsb said...

Re: Sebelius

Even if Clinton supporters perceived picking her as some sort of pander, I'm not really sure it'd matter. I still think it'd make many of them more likely to vote Obama. Or am I being overly optimistic?

JC said...

Actually, Sherrod Brown is growing on me as a choice. Ohio is a must-win for McCain, and choosing Brown would put him on the spot.

Schweitzer and Sebelius remain my top two picks, but there's a benefit to having governors of red states, and they would both be likely to be replaced by republicans.

Clark is also an interesting pick.

All in all, I'd rather be Obama than McCain for this. McCain has 4 groups he has to corral in order to win--Neocons, True Conservatives, Evangelicals, and Independents--and although he has the Neocons pretty well secured his VP can only bring in one of the others. Choosing which one to bring in and which to try some other way to capture and enthuse is an unenviable task.

david h said...

I don't think the "flip-flopper" attack on Obama is anywhere near as damaging as the "He's a wolf-in-sheep's-clothing" attack. Basically, the swiftboaters would say that he's a leftist radical eager to force on us the agenda of the black churches and the left-wing blogosphere.

The best way to minimize the damage from this sort of attack is to alienate the left-wing blogosphere, and to get the media to spend a month talking about how Obama is moving to the center and acting just like a politician. That's exactly what he needs. The Right is going to try to make you scared to vote for him, because he might just be an ideologue. The more he acts like a tame politician, the easier he will be to vote for.

That's because Americans like to be inspired, but they are also used to voting for politicians! Remember how people loved Howard Dean until it came time to actually vote? Why did they get cold feet? They were scared of the outsider. As much as we hate it, Obama needs to be the insider, safely in the mainstream of the Democratic party.

Stephen said...

I like the Wesley Clark idea well enough too. He also has a strong resume, believably endorses Obama, and no that "getting shot down" comment was not as significant a gaffe as it was played as. It was basically overly blunt truth, and that can sting and be called fowl on, but it still sticks. Bush-attack-Kerry-on-war-record in reverse. I think Clark can do message discipline if he's instructed, and I think he knew what he was doing when he flouted the Obama camp's position and continued to press his case.

So far I'm liking Richardson or Clark. Sebelius would work.

lupercal said...

a few things we have to address. i completely disagree that edwards is viewed as moderate by moderates. i sure am no fan of him. he's got no cred on the economy, or foreign policy, and would heavily distract from the message. he sure can stick to a message, but all you'd hear is haircuts and beauty salons. And he's got too much chemistry with obama, likes the limelight way too much, which would make it out to be a pretty superfluous team. it sure would make liberals happy but Obama's winning at the very least 87% despite all you hear in the media. it would pretty much be like mccain picking romney. Obama's already picked up on the theme to make him out to be out of touch (romney), and a pretty boy. so, although evan bayh, i guess is a moderate who, as far as i know doesn't quite have a lot of negatives, is boring (a plus, gravitas), but has a sharp mind (plus in debates), he could easily be portrayed as someone lacking, to borrow a term, testicular fortitude. i know, you've heard this before.

mikeel said...

One thing to consider is that if Sen. Reed is selected, wouldn't that create an open seat in Rhode Island?

My top choices are:
1. Schweitzer
2. Edwards
3. Sabelius
4. Clinton
5. Clark

Blame said...

Sebelius for me.

In six years as Govenor just about all the dirt the Republicans can find is that she is pro-choice.

It is bound to feature in negative attacks, because after that they are left with claiming she is unfit for office because her son made a board game called "dont drop the soap".

She has recieved donations from a late-abortion clinic which they can use.

Obama has recently clarified his position on late abortions. While I would like him to have made it clear that its OK when the baby is seriously damaged, I think he held to a position most would favour.

Asuming Sebelius can follow his lead it is a good sign that he is thinking of her.

There is likely to be some vitrol from catholic leaders because amazingly Sebelius is a catholic. She argues that a catholic she is pro life, but as a politician she recognises the right of others to make there own choices.

All told with Sebelius as VP we can expect abortion to be a hot issue. They will be forced to make abortion reduction a campaign message (Through education, adoption, easier access to contaception, more help to single mothers). I can't see that as a bad thing. Nobody is totaly comfortable with abortions.

Anonymous said...

i really like chris dodd. I thought mortgage thing would derail him, but it's the only thing working against him, sharp mind( works wonderfully in debates, remember how hillary got derailed?, he dealt the blow and barack took over while the media got it all wrong and thought edwards did, lol them), exudes confidence, moderate but doesn't alienate our liberal brothers. In fact, while being a conservative democrat, he wins rave reviews from liberals, from what i've seen so far. he's got the white hair but along Obama, he looks hip and vigorous, speaks spanish, has cred in both economic and foreign policy, is eminently respected by the media, which WILL treat him with deference. he's christian and as such wedge issues can't be used. he's the kind of guy who can go in those small towns and garner support for obama, and most of all, although he's an old hand, i don't think the theme would be typical washington if obama and him can move aggressively to foil this countrywide thing, which is highly feasable. More over, served in the army reserve, i think. i mean, the only negative is this countrywide thing. which is a pretty good record if you consider all the pluses. i just wanna hear more about brian schweitzer. im fascinated by this new-progressive democrat idea.

Alex said...

Ever since I read this short article:

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0608/Wes_Clark_floats_ObamaSebelius.html

I have been rather convinced that there is some kind of cabinet in the works with Sebelius as VP, Clark as Sec. of Def., Biden/Richardson as Sec. of State, Edwards as Attorney Gen.
There is a very sneaky reason for choosing Sebelius: Kansas. Obama´s mother was from Kansas and Sebelius is a little older than Obama...the mind makes the connection there (that Obama is from the american heartland).
She would probably not deliver Kansas, but Kansas borders on Missouri and Colorado. Missouri would be attacked from 2 sides so to say. She is in fact more liberal than she appears. She is pro-choice and anti-coal, but she also balanced the Kansas budget, so you can´t call her a tax-and-spend-liberal. You cannot really demonize her, because of her sober style (some call it boring) - and I think that´s what Obama wants.

I would really like to see the furor of Feminists if Obama chooses Sebelius instead of Clinton. Only the die-hard Clinton fans would really have a reason to be upset. Of course, those people are the loudest, but they would never vote for Obama anyway. I can´t help thinking that if Obama had really wanted Clinton as VP he would have asked her immediately after his primary win.

Stephen said...

Several people like Brian Schweitzer-- what are people's arguments for picking him? He governs a potentially "swing" state, but as we've seen on the tipping point map, it's only 3 EVs and probably not pivotal. I feel like the governing Montana thing might just beg the comparison of the scope of Montana to the POTUS. I know he has a fuller resume and it won't be a big deal to a lot of voters, but as with most things, the media can keep parroting some seeming truth until they're proven wrong by a real vote. Unlike in the primaries where everyone was consistently proven wrong on the public's skepticism of Obama's inexperience, if they don't have reason to be confident in the VP the press could run with the skeptical experience of the ticket idea until the election.

But-- the same argument would apply to Sebelius or Richardson to a lesser extent. (Can't you just hear the press going, really??Montana??) Still, I don't know much about him-- I'm curious to know what are people's reasons for liking him?

Anonymous said...

Again- - other than abortion, what about Sebelius makes her progressive on the national scale? Since the topic at hand is what appeals to progressives, this should be an easy question to answer. Rather than simply saying one likes her, provide a background into her record that would appeal to people who are progressive in a non-deep red state.

lupercal said...

blame, you completely took this out of my mouth!!! I love her most still...lol i mean foreign experience might be an issue if obama doesn't hint to his cabinet but i am just burning for Obama to offer abortion reduction as the democratic platform for years and years to come. i mean, a lot of republicans have daughters who've had abortions. and a lot of democrats who aren't comfortable with abortions, like barack said at the convention speech. it would definitely work to assuage moderate republicans who WILL be influence by those abortion ads, kathleen sebelius, or not.

Anonymous said...

I really like Schweitzer but his seat is up for reelection this year and if he gets elected then I don't know if Montana will elect another Democrat.
Thats why I like Kaine. He's a popular Governor of a swing state and he is a super Catholic which would help a lot. The only problem I can think of is that he has faith based opposition to abortion which might not fly with the liberals.

Tom said...

Commenting on a couple of unrelated comments:

"Do you think there is a seasonable effect in polling? I've heard it hypothesized that in the summer it is harder for pollsters to find people with children who may be on vacation as well as young adults. Thus, the argument goes, polls will underestimate their place in the electorate and whatever their views tend to be (in this case, pro-Obama) will show up less in the overall poll numbers, thus bringing down the total Obama support reported."

Any good pollster will weight respondents in such a way to make sure the overall demographics of the sample match the overall demographics of the population. So, if they end up surveying fewer young people, they'll just givem ore weight to the views of the fewer young people that they do survey.

So, the only ways such seasonal effects could show up would be if (a) it's a demographic that pollsters don't use as a weighting criteria (#/age of children maybe?) or if the missing members of the demographic have a different voting profile than the members that they found.

I've seen the same argument made, for example, that excluding cell-phone only users will bias polls against Obama because cell-phone users are young. But this would only happen if either the poll didn't weight respondents by age (which would make it a terrible poll) or if young cell-phone users are more likely to vote for Obama than young landline-phone users.

"SInce this is a polling site, I am a bit surprised you didn't mention the head to heads, and how he out polls Sebelius. He's brand the public knows."

At this point, VP polls are simply measures of name recognition and John Edwards has better name recognition than Kathleen Sebelius. I don't really see why that would make him a better choice. There'll be plenty of time for people to learn about Gov. Sebelius after Obama names his VP choice.

Alex said...

@ Anonymous 5:14 pm

Energy policy:
http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/may2008/2008-05-16-093.asp

She´s also for universal health care:

http://www.khi.org/s/index.cfm?aid=267

lupecal said...

well, there are more than a few reasons to pick someone. the most popular is if that person is bringing a state. or if they reinforce an ideological way of governing, or reinforce a theme, or shore up a weakness. in cruch time, it's about the person who hurts you the most. so, you know, like sam Nunn: georgia, national security, southern white guy, conservative democrat, old hand. Hillary clinton: (some say) Ohio, Penn state, michigan, experience, chemistry, but bill, and heavy baggage. Kathleen Sebelius: heavily successful moderate AND liberal democrat in the ultimate red-state bastion. Heavy expertise on the economy (she was so successful, repubs started saying folks shouldn't elect her because kerry would tap her as vp), bi-partisan (convinced a lot of republicans to become democrat, including her lieutenant gov), business cred and competence, soberness, incredible chemistry with barack, highlights midwestern roots, and thus allows to be more competitive in midwest, but abortion would be hot issue and no one knows how she would have at national level. so the one of you asking why brian schweitzer, do the same analysis, and he has a similar profile as sebelius, except perhaps less impressive, but the guy's a whiz on energy issues, although he's no barack obama, just leave him in a room and let him loose on energy issues. there's no way he's not gonna convince you he's got a real record on the issue and that he's at the same time real serious about environmental issues. he's extremely good on infrastructure as well, as he's been in the mideast as an engineer, i think in Saudi Arabia... i wouldn't want him discussing the war in Iraq though. huge turn off for me how he frames it. (even though he's always been against it.) i think he has a charlie rose 60 minutes interview on youtube. i highly recommend it. but other than that i don't really know a lot about him except the midwestern, new democrat theme which is incredibly refreshing to moderate democrats, liberals and moderate republicans at the same time.

Rasmus said...

lupercal,
first, Schweitzer is a brilliant speaker and would crush his rival in the Veep debate, no matter who it is. Second, he has very good approval ratings (around 70%; as far as I know) in a red state, and even if he´s progressive, Republicans like him. So he´s post-partisan, as well as Obama. He is not so young (as Obama), but not too old (as McCain might be), so that would balance the ticket as well. He could bring in Montana and might force McCain to spend in ND, and maybe even in SD.

He has good connections to other parts of the world, speaks fluent Arabic (OK, might fuel the muslim conspiracy things, but otherwise...), and he was a cabinet member with the Clinton administration. Might help with those guys, either.

He is pro-gun and pro-death penalty, what might help with Repubs and is not too important to make Liberals seriously angry, but pro-choice, anti-lobby (refuses special interest and PAC money for his campaigns)...

ontheissues.org makes him a "moderate liberal populist" -.-
Reminds me of "Obama is the new..."

Anonymous said...

"At this point, VP polls are simply measures of name recognition and John Edwards has better name recognition than Kathleen Sebelius. I don't really see why that would make him a better choice. There'll be plenty of time for people to learn about Gov. Sebelius after Obama names his VP choice."

This is either you lying or responding out of ignorance. Since, I already anticipated and refuted your claim- I am going the repetition of a lie. He out polls or equals Sebelius in her own state. People who who Sebelius is in Kansas so name id doesn't cut it. He out polls Rendell in his own state. Name id doesn't explain his polling there either.

There won't be "plenty of time" for people to vet Sebelius, and nor is is clear why they should since none of you have yet to explain why she's a progressive other than on abortion rights. Once again, provide a succint list of reason why Sebelius is progressive on, for example, economic issues like NAFTA and a multitude of other concerns on the national level.

Insult Comic Dog said...

I know you already spoke of shorting Al Gore, but I think he is the strongest choice, and I think he would do it if asked. It is, after all, a call to duty, and a chance to help shape policy that can change the world.

The left loves Al Gore. Al Gore is a much stronger speaker than he was eight years ago. He is respected around the world. He is regarded even by those who don't love him as someone who is smart. He gives credibility on energy and environmental policy.

He can tack either left or center and not be inconsistent since he's been both places.

He doesn't win you Tennessee, but I don't think you pick a Veep that way these days anyway.

asmodeus said...

I thought Obama would be looking past the election for his VP pick -he plans to change the world, right? Problem with Rendell -he tried to wreck Obama's nomination bid - would he be a progressive in a new administration or an obstacle? -the same q. mark hangs over any other Clinton supporter -my gut: they do very well out of the status quo(lovers of partisan squabbling) thank you v. much and wouldn't want to change much in D.C.. Wesley Clark -stiff military guy -what use would he be? Edwards- nice hair but not very bright. I'd pick Sebelius for her IQ and likeability- intelligence is what gets things done -whether it's winning elections or governing afterwards. The only thing against is she maybe has played it a little too cool over being VP - a bit more naked ambition would be good to see. Jack Reed is an intriging new name,though, to me - sounds like a name from the JFK era.

P.S. I've heard rumours about Robert Novak and goats.

asmodeus said...

Brian Schwetizer!

Rhode Island X said...

Interesting analysis as always.

On Reed: Even I think of him as "The liberal senator from RI" before military, foreign policy experience, or anything else!

He's a generic Progressive holding a safe Democratic seat.

Rhode Island X said...

Additionally, the governor of RI is a strong Republican, and probably won't be kicked out anytime soon. RI has a history of corrupt Republican governors who keep getting elected. It's inexplicable, really. I blame the local media. :p

asmodeus said...

Why not BS someone asked - how about he and Obama have no established rapport. I find it hard to believe he is even on a shortlist.

New Yorker said...

On the dimension of must-kill-the-flip-flopping-bullshitting-Democrat meme, it's Sebelius all the way.

Why? Because it's been reported that Obama really likes her. That is the only way the veep pick is going to be perceived as an expression of who Obama is deep-down when no one is looking. And that, of course, treats the Authenticity Deficit symptoms currently plaguing the campaign. For some reason, many voters want a politician who will act according to their own (the politician's) authentic emotions; even if those emotions produce policies contrary to their (the voters') own interest. Such is the apparent power of authenticity.

OpenLeft suggested many months ago that Sebelius, the attractive Kansan about the same age as Ann Dunham, would be a problematic pick for that reason. Well...maybe. But if we're talking about authenticity, is there a more authentic pick than an experienced center-left governor who reminds the candidate of his mother? (Not to say that she actually does, of course.)

Stephen said...

Insult Comment Dog- I just don't think it will be Al Gore, John Edwards, or John Kerry. They might poll well and look good from other metrics, but the media might self combust while trying to explain what it means in terms of a move to to the past. For that matter, I'd take Lieberman off the table too ;-)

Tom said...

"There won't be "plenty of time" for people to vet Sebelius, and nor is is clear why they should since none of you have yet to explain why she's a progressive other than on abortion rights."

My comment wasn't intended as an argument in favor of Sebelius. I don't know nearly enough about anybody named in this thread to have an opinion, and I think the impact of a VP choice is almost universally overstated.

It was a direct answer to your question of why Nate (and everybody else) was ignoring pollign at this point. Since nobody really expects Sebelius to deliver Kansas to Obama, I'm not sure why Edwards out-polling Sebelius in Kansas really matters much (I'd also like to see a source for that claim anyway).

Anonymous said...

except once again you keep using the label center left/progressive blah,blah, blah, and not one of you has explained how she is left or progressive except for abortion, and even there, this is only if one compares her to Kansas. This is a little like saying Pataki or NY or Weld of MA or Bloomberg of NY are conservatives by comparing them to their respective states. It's a completely useless barometer. And trust me, Obama doesn't need to reinforce the notion that his candidacy is about persoanlity rather than policies and issues. Its on that front that his character traits needs the most reinforcement.

Anonymous said...

The interesting thing about the "Hillary crazies" as you put them complaining about Obama choosing Sebelius (or any other woman) as his running mate is that it puts those Hillarites in the position of being just as sexist as the people who they accuse of sexism.

They are essentially saying that, if not Hillary, who more or less ran as "one of the men" herself, as the VP pick, only men need apply.

Tom said...

"(I'd also like to see a source for that claim anyway)"

Responding to myself: SurveyUSA reported a poll of Kansas w/ VP choices on May 29th(http://politicususa.com/en/Kansas-poll) that found that an Obama/Sebelius ticket still trailed McCain, but stated, "Sebelius does fare better in Kansas than any other Democratic possible ticket measured."

Stephen said...

Anonymous speaking on "Hillary crazies":

It is pretty interesting how their rejection of a person somehow too similar to Hillary would be an affront is completely illogical. One has to wonder, if we have their thinking right at all, or even if we do, if we can predict what this voter will do at all. Who's to say Hillary VP will be decisive for any of them? She'll be demeaning herself for some and it'll be like an extra cherry on top of a democratic ticket for others. Hard to really get a sense of her swing vote appeal.

Anonymous said...

Sebelius polling in her own state versus Edwards matters because it disproves your argument about name id. Logically speaking, were it famousness of name, that shouldn't happen since the voters of a state would know their own governor's name since they voted for her or (in the case of Rendell) him. The name id was something brought up by Kos and now is being regurgitated as cw without any thought whatsoever behind it. As is the media will hate him argument because when you think more than a second about it you realize that they media already did what they were going to do against Edwards during ht eprimary. People in the head to head want him despite of all of this media blitz not because they don't know about the media stuff. Sebelus on the other hand- no one knows where her ticking time bombs are- its one thing to vet in private, and quite another for the press to take what appears innocent and turn it into the worst thing since Hilter. Of the VP nominees being discussed only two have face that vetting already- Edwards and CLinton. They are the only two incidentially can claim they also aren't just name ID since they both were in the primary with Obama. THe whole name ID argument ignores the primary.

Anonymous said...

She fares 2 points better. A statiscally insignificant number. This is in her own state at the height of her brand since every where else it would take weeks and months to reintroduce her. In other states, she fares extremely poorly, or did you not read the rest of it? You will also note how I described it above.

Tom said...

"Sebelius polling in her own state versus Edwards matters because it disproves your argument about name id."

Well, it might if it was true.

Alex said...

@ Anonymous at 6:08:


Energy policy:
http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/may2008/2008-05-16-093.asp

She´s also for universal health care:

http://www.khi.org/s/index.cfm?aid=267

The Numantine said...

Hey, How about Sen. Daniel Inouye?

Tom said...

"You will also note how I described it above."

Well, assuming you're the same Anonymous poster that first responded to me, you described it as "He out polls or equals Sebelius in her own state." Which is a direct contradiction of how Survey USA described their own findings.

new yorker said...

The betting public appear to favor Clinton, Sebelius, Kaine, Bayh and Reed, in that order.

The top three are wise picks by the crowd, but I think Bayh and Reed are quite unlikely. Clark and Schweitzer are both a lot more likely.

The main point of this post is right on--a Bayh pick would be seen as a continued capitulation by Obama to "the center" and therefore a big disaster.

Anonymous said...

I hate arguing with stupid. You claimed that Edwards polling results were the result of his name id. I cited that his polling data is actually the same or equal to Sebelius, including in her own state.

The main point about her own state was to refutate your claim that you can reduce this to name id. Do you logically see the point? or do you persist in pretending that a 2 point spread is enough of a reason to claim its all name id for Edwards? You are simply standing on thin ice looking at what the data says overall. Especially when other popular figures such as Rendell in his own state is added into the mix.

Instead, of admitting that, and saying well, but Sebelius offers us more here or on some other point that I didn't make- you persist in pretending that a duck isn't a duck. That we aren't discussing the refutation of the assertion that Edwards is just name id in these polls.

I can see why you must do that. Afterall, the rest of the polling data is pretty strong evidence for why he's a strong chocie over all.

If it makesyou feel any better, yo udon't have to worry. Obama won't be picking a progressive so Sebelius will probably be the choice.

asmodeus said...

Maybe you should change the site's tag-line?: political commentary done right

Anonymous said...

The Governor of MT has said that he doesn't want the gig and he hasn't made any back peddling statements like Edwards did recently. If he does, then I think he would be a great choice too.

As i said, I like Clark or Edwards, but I don't see him picking Clark for the reason that I don't think he wants a progressive. I think Clark however would make a great attack dog/progressive choice.

I suspect he will choose Sebelius given the online push for her by people who keep saying she is a progressive without any thing to back it up other than good government rhectoric. It's a little too concerted and a little to quiet when people ask for the basis of why someone is a progressive. That should be a quick easy question to answer.

Oh, and she's not for UHC unless you mean some sort of weird contortion of that term similar to what Obama means. And no I am not talking about mandates.

Tom said...

"You claimed that Edwards polling results were the result of his name id. I cited that his polling data is actually the same or equal to Sebelius, including in her own state."

Yes, where Sebelius also has high name recognition. Look at those SurveyUSA results and it just reinforces the idea that all we're seeing in these are name recognition numbers. Obama polls 39% against McCain w/ no VP's named. When Edwards is added, Obama polls 38-40%. When Sebelius is added, Obama polls 39-41%. But when Rendell or Hagel are added - guys with lower name recognition (and, in the case of Hagel, a guy who's a Republican and therefore likely to have higher negatives among Obama supporters), Obama's numbers drop to 28-30%. How does this NOT show that it's just pure name recognition?

As I said above, I am not arguing FOR Sebelius. I have no opinion of her. As I ALSO said above, I think that the choice of VP is vastly overstated and, again, these results reinforce that. When the VP choice is somebody that people have heard of - and by the time the election rolls around, voters will have heard of Obama's VP choice - his poll numbers are basically unchanged (even when the VP is the governor of the state being polled).

Note, the same is true of McCain and his choices - Obama appears to poll better when McCain picks Pawlenty only because McCain's number drops from over 50% down to 45% because of an increase in undecideds from people who have never heard of Tim Pawlenty.

Bart said...

Stephen -

I think the "comparing their current job with POTUS" argument is a valid one, and why I think that Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin is not a viable choice for the Republicans (even though I think she will make a great president in 2016). But I think Schweitzer's resume is extensive enough to let him be a viable candidate.

Colin said...

I've heard a lot of positive chatter about Joe Biden (DE). Connects with white, working class males. Speaks frankly, will do well in the VP debate. Pads the resume in Foreign Policy and experience. Finally DE is a safe Dem hold to replace his senate seat. The same can't be said for many of the other picks.

nkpolitics said...

Who can deliver a state for Obama.
Edwards-NC. Average polls show Obama trailing in North Carolina by a 3% margin. Edwards did not deliver NC to Kerry in 2004.
Sebelius-KS- Average polls show Obama trailing in Kansas by a 10% margin. I doubt Sebelius can deliver Kansas to Obama.She lacks foriegn policy experience.
Clark-AR- Average polls show Obama trailing in Arkansas by a 12% margin. I doubt Clark will help Obama win Arkansas.
Evan Bayh-IN- Obama is trailing Indiana by a 1% margin. Bayh is extremely popular in Indiana. He can deliver Indiana to Obama.

counsellorben said...

Nate said "Ed Rendell ... What the Obama people need to figure out is whether he can turn the whole Archie Bunker shtick on and off, or whether it's intrinsic to his personality."

Having been in or near the Philadelphia region my entire life, I have watched Ed as he went from DA to mayor of Philadelphia to governor.

Ed is a South Philly guy, through and through.  He still appears on the Eagles post-game show on Comcast Sportsnet (an early "scandal" was that he paid someone $20 to throw a snowball at Jimmy the Greek during the infamous "Snow Bowl" game ... ah, youth).

Ed has always been a blunt talker, but he backs up his talk with results.  He helped turn Philadelphia around during his two terms as mayor, and has amazing popularity in the Philadelphia metro area.

He won re-election as governor in a landslide, but that was also due to the fact that no Republican wanted to run against him, so the Republicans had as their candidate ... Lynn Swann!  Anyone could guess that a former Pittsburgh Steeler would not fare well in the Philadelphia area.

Ed has been a strong supporter of Hillary Clinton (and helped deliver Pennsylvania), but he did not do anything during the campaign which should upset Obama.

Still, having said all of that, I do not expect Ed to be the VP pick.  But I love talking about him, because he is larger than life.

SarahLawrenceScott said...

I just want to straighten out the name ID issue.

There was a SurveyUSA poll in Kansas in May that tried out a 4 x 4 matrix of possible Obama/McCain VP picks. Note that this poll was conducted before the end of the primary season, which complicates things, particularly since Hillary wasn't in the grid! Would Hillary supporters in Kansas "punish" Sebelius in this poll because they thought Hillary's name might be coming up, and they wanted to emphasize they wanted the "right" woman as VP? Maybe. Maybe not.

At any rate, all the relevant results (MOE 4.1%):

No VP's mentioned: M 49 O 39

VPs Huckabee vs. Edwards M 51 O 39
Huckabee vs. Sebelius M 50 S 41
(Sebelius wins this one, but not significantly)

Romney vs. Edwards M 48 O 39
Romney vs. Sebelius M 49 S 38
(Edwards wins this one, not significantly)

Pawlenty vs. Edwards M 43 O 41
Pawlenty vs. Sebelius M 45 O 41
(Edwards sort of wins this one, not significantly)

Lieberman vs. Edwards M 47 O 39
Lieberman vs. Sebelius M 47 O 40
(Sebelius wins this one, not significantly)

Perhaps most importantly, note that neither one helps significantly--the results are very close to the generic, non-VP number.

Also note that Pawlenty seems to hurt McCain.

Looking at the other two Democratic possibilities here, Rendell and Hagel both hurt Obama a lot--to the tune of about 10 points.

My conclusion: It's name ID. Name someone that the people being polled are familiar with, and they think "OK, that's not a crazy pick" and don't penalize the candidate, but don't reward them either. Name someone they're not familiar with, and they penalize them. The same pattern is largely repeated in the other SUSA polls of this type, although once in a while you find someone in-state who underperforms the nationally known candidates like Edwards. When that happens, it's interesting. But results like the Kansas ones are a little bit of statistical noise on top of a basic "we've vetted Sebelius and Edwards and they're both OK with us." It doesn't really argue against the choices they don't know; it just means that they haven't vetted them yet.

Anonymous said...

Al this talk and Joe Biden's name hasn't been mentioned? Foreign Policy expert, Catholic, the Clinton's crowd love him and born in the now famous Scranton, PA. He and Barack get along very well, he's vetted, the only downside is he tends to talk a little too much.

On another note, I believe Hillary is more and more in the running. The base is not unifying like Barack would have hoped. I've heard she would be the V.P. if it not for Bill. It looks like this race will remain close through August pointing to Hillary as well. If it looks a month from now that Hillary's support is not coming over, Barack might have to pick her, Bill and all. Consolidating the base, as big as it is this year, means more than any other VP can bring. - Having Barack, Bill Clinton and Hillary out there will keep the press busy and push the D's message.

I hated Hillary at times in the primary, but the Clinton's are tough campaigners, and I believe they help Barack in Ohio, Michigan Pennsylvania and Florida. Especially in this economic environment.

Anonymous said...

Because they were elected. Apparently, you don't understand the argument about name id. You just demonstrated that.

If you are going to say "well they recognize his name, therefore name id is an argument against him," then you should understand the premises upon which you are making your arguments and whether they are true.

The name id argument only matters as an argument against Edwards if one is claiming that name id means people don't know him outside of his name. Name id arguments are equivalent to saying he's like Barbara Streisand.

Sebelius polling well in her own state isn't a matter of name id as your argument (implicitly) requires. The same is true of Rendell. Again, it takes about 2 seconds to realize why- because we are talking about elected governors. Its true in a superficial since that if they are elected, then people know their names, but it's not an argument against Edwards unless you dig deeper than the superficial response you just made.

That Edwards is polling as well as they are in their own states isn't something you can dismiss as name id as your argument requires since one would expect the person that is more well known on policy, character and other factors to significantly outperform the guy with just name id. Telling me that she beats Edwards by 2 (statically insignificant) but loses to him in other states isn't impressive. The same is true of Rendell in the Apallachia region, including his own state of PA.

Your argument also requires that we pretend that he wasn't just involved in a protracted primary in which people got to know his character, views on policies and things he would bring to an elected office.

Anonymous said...

And now for more stupid. Kerry didn't run in 2004 in NC. VP's aren't imbued with magical powers where they can overcome their own running mates stupidity. Kerry was stupid. Does anyone deny that still about 2004? This is a man who couldn't even bring himself to fight his own swiftboating. I suppose that was Edwards fault too.

Anonymous said...

And now for more stupid. Kerry didn't run in 2004 in NC. VP's aren't imbued with magical powers where they can overcome their own running mates stupidity. Kerry was stupid. Does anyone deny that still about 2004? This is a man who couldn't even bring himself to fight his own swiftboating. I suppose that was Edwards fault too.

Tom said...

"name id is an argument against [Edwards]"

It's not an argument against him. It's an argument why polls aren't particularly helpful in judging VP candidates.

If you look at polls with possible VP candidates, you see two general results. For VP candidates that are fairly well known, they tend to make very little difference to the Presidential candidate, adding or subtracting 1-2 points. For VP candidates that are not well known, what tends to happen is that some supporters of the Presidential candidate switch to undecided, because the voter doesn't know the VP candidate. Note, the way to see this is to look at the support for Obama, not at the gap between Obama and McCain, which, in these polls, is going to be affected by the same impacts of possible McCain choices.

So, as of today, people with high national name recognition - Clinton, Edwards - will, in general, poll higher than people with low name recognition. This tells us nothing about people's relative opinions of, say, Edwards v. Sebelius because (a) almost nobody actually changes their vote because of a VP candidate, and (b) people have no opinion of Sebelius, either good or bad, outside of Kansas.

Anonymous said...

That argument is at least a little bit more nuanced but still fundamentally wrong.

First, Edwards numbers helps Obama in several states more than by the small percentage you describe.

Second, it doesn't explain why Edwards would poll as well or better than people with something more than name recognition going for them if this were all just name id.

Your argument presupposes that name id is all people know of Sebelius in her own state or Rendell in his own state. That's simply not the case. You can not ignore that they also know their character, policies, leadership style, etc. They know in other words brand.

Third, if name id isnt a bad thing- then it's not an argument against Edwards, but one that should favor him. They know more about Edwards than just his name. Again, your argument depends on pretending the primary in 2008 didn't include Edwards with a 10 to 15 percent following in multiple states.

This argument is, as you sumise, one that favors both Edwards and Clinton. But, that doesn't change the correctness of the argument. It enhances it because the public vetting, as I said above, has already happened with these candidates. In neither case, is there an issue of whether these candidates have been tested in the national stage. The same is true to a lesser degree of Clark. Lesser because althogh he's been tested, he last ran in 2004, and therefore is likely to be known.

However, the reason name id is often cited is to act as a counterweight against Edwards. BTD by the way - makes these arguments for Clinton. You may not like her, but she does bring something other than theorectical extra to the mix.

Even as you are saying you aren't doing that here, you inevitably make this implicitly an argument against Edwards- name id. If it's not, then why bring it up as "but that's just name id." Why the contrast ?

You also make a set of assumptions such as 'maybe Sebelius will have a better result." Yeah, or maybe she won't. This isn't an argument that says there can't be some future evidence. Its one that says we have some evidence of why Edwards now. And possibly Clinton. If name id isn't a minus, it is definitely a plus that factors over the other choices.

Tom said...

"Your argument presupposes that name id is all people know of Sebelius in her own state or Rendell in his own state."

Not at all. What I'm saying is that arguing that Edwards out-polls Sebelius nationally tells us nothing because of the vast discrepancy in their respective name recognitions.

A comparison of Edwards and Sebelius in Kansas could tell us something but (a) it's only telling us about Kansas, which is a state that Obama's unlikely to win, so it's not clear how the results would translate to anywhere that might matter, and (b) the SurveyUSA poll that I found argues that Sebelius does very slightly better than Edwards. As you correctly point out, (b) is not statistically significant, but that just reinforces my other point: VP selections don't matter enough to be measurable at a statistically significant level in polls.

If you want to argue that Edwards would be a better choice than Clinton because he polls better, that might have some validity, to the extent that you can actually identify a significant difference. But you can't compare Edwards to relative unknowns - not just Sebelius, but Rendell or even guys like Biden or Wesley Clark, who aren't well known outside of hardcore political junkies.

You've also made frequent references to "polls" without actually providing any citations. What are the specific polls that you're using as your evidence in support of John Edwards as Obama's running mate?

Lawnchair said...

I'm a Kansan, and a longtime Sebelius backer.

Yes, she is pretty centrist. She's been a Dem since she came to Kansas for college (a lot harder road than jumping to NY for a Senate run). She sold the Democrat label so well she convinced two former Republicans to switch parties and run as Dems with her. She convinced a Republican DA to switch parties and win as a Democrat for state AG. She convinced a woman (Boyda) to switch parties, run as a Dem, and beat a GOP incumbent for a House seat.

But, she's also a reformer. Before she was governor, she was the (statewide elected) insurance commissioner. The office had been painfully corrupt for years. She refused insurance industry contributions in her run, won, and cleaned house. See why Obama likes her? Then, an for-profit company (Anthem/Wellpoint) tried to take over the state's co-op non-profit Blue Cross. She vetoed that, to the praise of many people. When it comes to health care policy, Sebelius knows and has done as much as anyone in the country.

BTW - On coal, there's a more local side to the story. Colorado passed a renewable energy provision by ballot initative. Bully for them. But, the proposed coal plant in western Kansas was designed as a workaround to the will of Colorado voters. 85-90% of the power generated at it was committed to Denver sprawl, sucking Kansas water and possibly affecting Kansas in a future cap-and-trade regime.

I think if Obama could pick with no consideration but who he'd like to work with, Sebelius is at the top of the list.

I also think Obama should do it quickly and suddenly. If he does it totally unannounced, McCain gets stuck. If McCain picks an interesting candidate (Snowe if he's really, really smart and lucky), he still looks like he's playing catchup. But, otherwise, his ticket might look hopelessly male, pale, and stale.

tibor75 said...

I cringe everytime I hear the name Edwards thrown about. The guy is a loser. He lost the Democratic nomination...TWICE. He couldn't pull his home state in a presidential election. Heck, the bum wouldn't even been reelected as Senator if he tried in 2004.

He brings nothing to the ticket.

Mike said...

Maybe by picking a candidate that doesn't appear safe will make Obama look like he's intentionally not trying to pander. This line of logic could go on forever . . .

kj said...

Anyone want to explain why bill richardson isn't getting much attention as a vp pick? Lots of experience in foreign affairs, could help solidify nm for obama (well aware its not worth much but still), a former secretery of energy, would probably help with the latino vote.

Stephen C. Rose said...

Come on. 26 words at the end for Brian Schweitzer. Prescience might argue for a bit more attention to one who will be in the final three unless he takes himself out.

Anonymous said...

Democrats are weird bunch. Or people claiming to be Democrats online- which isn't the same thing as actually being Democrats in real life. Edwards is a loser becaue he didn't win the presidential nomination. Yet, by that logic so is Reagan, Nixon, Gore, Bush Sr, FDR, Clinton and multiple other politicians. If you don't know what I am referring, you should before calling people losers.

Cugel said...

Sebelius is an unknown Midwestern Governor. The public reaction to her will be "who?"

I had to look up who she was when her name first started getting all this recognition. I think I pay reasonable attention, but I didn't have a clue who Jack Reed was until I googled him.

Sebelius would tend to reinforce Obama's image as an administration without any foreign policy expertise at all.

I think a Senator would be better from that perspective. Sebelius just can't speak to foreign policy with any authority.

Because of the right-wing media bias, that isn't a problem for Republicans. They gave Bush a complete pass on his utter foreign policy ignorance in 2000, and we're still living with the results.

But Democrats are held to a higher standard and the endless refrain about Obama-Sebelius would be "Neither of them knows anything about foreign policy!"

I'd have no problem with her as VP. I think Obama would have to run it by Hillary and see if she would sulk, (more likely will Bill explode with some damaging comment).

The only potential VP that would excite me would be Clark and it doesn't look like Obama is going to pick him, although he would make a great Secretary of Defense in an Obama administration and that position will be critical.

Clark can't be B.S.'d by the Pentagon or intelligence agencies, and Obama's defense pick is going to be the MOST important cabinet pick in the last 30 years. Things are in a mess and the guy who gets that job had better be a total expert as well as having public relations skills.

I'd have said Evan Bayh or Joe Biden would be safe picks, but I agree Obama can't just stick with a safe pick. The flip-flopper theme is going to hurt him if he can't deal with it.

Anonymous said...

Sen Jack Reed of RI has now got to be in the top 3 list for Obama

Anonymous said...

Kaine has just sufferred a major set back in Va.

He failed to get a road funding bill passed for No. Va. and his approval rating in that part of the state is so bad that Obama's campaign had Kaine's wife, who went to high school in Fairfax County, introduce Barack at a rally for him in Fairfax on Thursday.

Kaine is a lame duck who cannot run for re-election and may not have even been at that rally for fear of getting roundly booed by the disappointed Fairfax commuters.

Kaine will hurt Barack in No. Va. which is where all Dems win state wide contests.

Tom said...

"Because of the right-wing media bias, that isn't a problem for Republicans. They gave Bush a complete pass on his utter foreign policy ignorance in 2000, and we're still living with the results."

Bush's running mate was his father's Secretary of Defense, who served as SecDef during the first Gulf War. I assume that was one of the reasons Bush chose him, specifically to address the foreign policy gap.

(which should in no way be taken as an endorsement of the job performance over the past 8 years of either Bush or Cheney)

Jen said...

I say this all the time, but I would love to see Obama pick a moderate Republican such as Lincoln Chafee, which I am sure he will not.

I would be very shocked if Edwards is the pick. He was my original choice in the primary, but I think he may hurt more than help.

Sebelius may be a good choice, but I would prefer Schweitzer or Clark of the ones listed.

SarahLawrenceScott said...

By the way, I'm impressed with the comments on this thread. Some real back and forth that move the conversation forward rather than just retreating to talking points. A lot to think about.

Since people complain when the comments degenerate into name-calling, I thought it good to point out when they don't!

lupercal said...

used to be a huge fan of richardson. but i think most will agree that he's got the credentials but it doesn't show. he's got no gravitas, and doesn't show a sharp mind in making a case for himself on the campaign trail or in debates. i do think he's eminently qualified to be in a cabinet position though. i mean, that's the same reason that although Sebelius is my personal favorite, has been for the past 7 months and im thoroughly excited by her, im not sure if her resume is a little more impressive than she is on the campaign trail or in debates. so, maybe other people are just blind and don't quite realize richardson's potential or they feel more passionate about somebody else. if he were a little sharper though, i'm not sure a lot of people could really compete with his resume. i mean, we haven't heard a lot of negatives about him

Stephen said...

kj-- I agree, I'm always surprised at how poorly Richardson is ranked and how little he is discussed, given how obvious and good a choice he seems.

lupercal-- I know people are a bit "eh" about Richardson. He was outshined by Clinton and Obama and Edwards in this race, for good reasons. I didn't like him in the nomination, thought he was bumbling and boring. But I still think "just" his impressive resume and the fact that he seems to genuinely endorse Obama put him in the top few contenders. Almost none of the Hillary camp or the crusty Washington insiders will look believable suddenly shouting "never mind about experience....change!" And (I think) he has the best resume of any of the quasi-outsiders. On a tangential note, he's been looking better lately with that beard.

As Nate, you once said vis-a-vis Jim Webb's vetting-- there has to be something said for seeming to really want the job.

Philip Meyer said...

Obama and anyone but Hillary in 2008

Matthew H said...

On Edwards...bleah. It would certainly show that Obama wasn't worried about experience- TWO one term Senators on the same ticket!

Sebelius won't bring in Kansas, but she might bring in another state. Her daddy was Jim Gilligan, former Governor of Ohio . I'm betting she still has some pull in Cinncinati.

A very good reason to pick Sebelius is that due to the law in Kansas, she can't run for a third term. So we're losing the governor's position no matter what. If she leaves now, her Veep becomes Governor, and he'd probably get re-elected.

Her husband is a prominent Republican...I think that's a plus. I think it's why she won the first time in Kansas, IMHO. It's the Maria Shriver effect in reverse!

I think the biggest reason to pick Sebelius is, well, she wants the damn job. She's head of the Democratic Governor's association, spoke against Bush for the State of the Union, ran point against Bush using the National Guard in Iraq so heavily, and so forth. She's clearly been gunning to be Obama's veep and has been since the start of the year. I think my biggest vote against Bayh is, well, I don't think he's all that interest. He didn't run for President because it would have taken all of his time to raise funds. So how hard is he going to work to raise funds running for veep?

The sad part is, I supported Richardson for President, and I prefer Sebelius over Richardson (though I'd be happy with Richardson). I don't know what it is about him, but he just doesn't seem Presidential.

11111 said...

How about this for a wild choice: Colin Powell

Powell tried to talk Bush out of the Iraq invasion, opposed various administration decisions and ultimately resigned. He admitted that his UN speech was a "blot" on his record, and "painful"... Recently, Powell has hinted that he may endorse Obama and has said that he is still interested in serving in government.

Benefits of Powell:

- Reaches across the aisle.

- Appeals to moderates and Republicans who feel betrayed by Bush.

- High favorability ratings and universal name recognition.

- Widely viewed as a non-partisan figure, fitting in nicely with Obama's message for a new kind of politics.

- Vast experience in military and foreign policy, trumping McCain and reassuring anyone worried about Obama's inexperience.

- Opposed the war like Obama did, but from INSIDE the administration.

- Moderate on social issues, pro-choice, favors "reasonable" gun control, etc.

- Widely regarded as a man of integrity and character, countering the image of Obama as an opportunist or flip-flopper.

- Hard to paint as an elitist, a radical, a Muslim or a socialist... as many try to do with Obama.

- Careful and measured, not prone to outbursts or gaffes.

- Vetted (presumably?)

- Old enough that he wouldn't be likely to run for Pres himself, leaving the door open for Hillary, Edwards, etc in 2016. (Powell is just a year younger than McCain.)

- I'd guess that an African-American VP would greatly reduce the possibility of an Obama assassination. Powell is probably the only African-American who could make such a ticket work.

- A chance for Powell to restore his good name after having it "used" by Bush to sell the Iraq war.


I know it's a wild idea... Just wanted to throw it out there!

Matt JH said...

Hillary brings the election for barack. She's really done a good job supporting him latley too. Winning is all that matters after the last 7 years.

MATT J. H. said...

Hilary Hillary Hillary

acujimmy said...

Judging from his votes in the Senate, Bayh is apparently more of a lefty than his moderate image suggests. This is per Electoral-Vote.com's tally of the ratings of several progressive interest groups such the ACLU, NAACP, NARAL, etc.

link here

Some sample ratings (100 scale):

Obama 98
Kennedy 95
Clinton 95
Feingold 91
Kerry 90
Bayh 89
Dodd 88
Reid 86
Lieberman 78
Snowe 52
Ben Nelson 49
Specter 33
McCain 17
Hagel 9
Grassley 5
Hatch 3

I'm sure that their approach could be tweaked quite a bit, but at least it's got some sort of empirical basis.

So, while Bayh might well be perceived as a cautious, centrist pick, the reality seems to be a little different. That's OK with me, since I respect anyone like Sebelius or Bayh who is able to succeed as a left-of-center pol in a red state.

root beer said...

I suspect that being able to trust someone's loyalty will be a paramount factor. That's an obvious problem with Hillary. Sebelius and Kaine would mark high on that standard because neither has run for president, each has a status far below Obama's, and both endorsed him early.

If he picks Hillary, I think it's the worst choice for the narrative problems because it looks like pure political calculation. It is the most naked win-at-all-costs pick.

TampaNick said...

Kathleen Sebelius gets you women and moderates, vibes well with Obama on unity and no drama, and has a bulletproof record as two-term governor of a Red state. Watch her ads on youtube for when she was running for re-election in Kansas; she looks very presidential and that counts for a lot.

cashbox said...

Regarding the whole Edwards vs. Sebelius name id thing, forget Kansas. What about Missouri? That's the neighbor to Kansas and they share several media markets. Both politicians should be well-known in Missouri.

In that instance, Edwards far outperforms Sebelius as a VP pick. From a strategic viewpoint, Edwards over Sebelius is a no-brainer. He doesn't just keep the line for Obama, he adds to his numbers.

I also would not count Clark out either. Nothing wrong with someone willing to smack McCain around some. If Clinton would have won, I bet she should have picked Clark. That would have been a dynamic duo. Great personal chemistry. Don't really see the chemistry between Obama & Clinton (pretty funny stuff between them during the debates). Obama does look pretty dynamic with Edwards. Reminds me a bit of the old Clinton/Gore glamor. A lot of this stuff is image. It wouldn't hurt Obama to have a VP going around the country feeling people's pain. Quite different from McCain's policy of having surrogates mock Americans for their mental recession.

Michael said...

On the merits I think Richardson would be a great choice. I live in New Mexico and if he is on the ticket it guarantees New Mexico and probably Colorado as well. Obviously he helps quite a bit in any other state that has a sizable hispanic population.

And I don't agree that he wasn't a good campaigner. He was pretty rough around the edges in the beginning but he got a lot better as time went on. And he's very good in informal settings, kind of like McCain. He could help in the interior West more generally because he would bolster Obama culturally. Richardson is a hunter and gun owner, catholic, and very down to earth. I think the whole not presidential thing is really an east coast bias. The west looks at leadership differently and I think Richardson fits the mold quite well.

His folksyness would be a good foil to Obama's formality. And Can you think of another VP candidate that would bring that much experience without overshadowing the Obama? He'd also be a bold pick that couldn't be portrayed as pandering.

Anonymous said...

Congressman Joe Sestak of Pennsylvania would provide perfect balance. Tons of gravitas, Hillary supporter, former military. Delivers Pennsylvania, Ohio, maybe Indiana. Not bad.

Phil Lembo said...

Richardson.

First, because he has an actual resume from having done big things rather than just thinking big thoughts. Second, because we could use at least one guy in this race that you really would want to have a beer with (just think of the moment in the debate when his opponent says something really mean-spirited, giving Richardson the opportunity to give the guy this hurt-but-worldly wise look with the cameras rolling and say something like, "hey I'm just here to do a job, nothing personal, ok?"). Third, the beard. He's got to keep the beard. It shows character.

acujimmy said...

Kaine has been a good governor and seems to be of excellent character (like Obama, he has a great community service background), but VP? Not sure he's quite ready to lead the country. We cut Obama some slack on the experience thing because he's obviously very intelligent and talented, but Kaine comes off as very good rather than great.

His abortion stance is a potential red flag, but he doesn't want to criminalize it and thus basically ends up with the "safe, legal and rare" stance.

Anonymous said...

To those who worry about losing Reed's seat: Reed is up for re-election this year. Not sure what the laws are in RI about running for two offices, but after the experience with Lieberman in '00, I'm betting Reed would be under a lot of pressure to step aside and give another RI Dem a shot rather than risking losing the seat to a GOP appointee. And given the likelihood of Obama winning, Reed would probably be OK with that.

As for Reed overall, this post does give me some pause, but I still like him, and think his ID as a "liberal from RI" might be seen as a gutsy choice, even as his military background makes him seem more interesting. As for what it does to the meta-narrative, I think "liberal ticket" is risky enough to be ballsy, but not enough to be damaging, given the strength of the Dem brand this year. Or to put it another way, I don't think the Dems lose the election because their ticket is seen as too liberal.

I also have a theory about the importance of secondary narratives in addressing weaknesses. Consider Clinton's choice in '92. If he had picked Nunn, everyone would have talked about how he was shoring up his lack of experience. By picking Gore, the primary narrative became "two moderate Baby Boomers", but there was also a secondary narrative of Gore being a relatively experienced DC insider with a famous name to stealthily address the weakness.

By contrast, when Kerry picked Edwards, the primary narrative was that it was addressing Kerry's lack of charisma, which made the choice seem small and calculating.

Similarly, if Obama picks Clark or Webb -- or, for that matter, Rendell/Brown -- the primary narrative will be "shoring up weakness". If he picks Reed, and the primary narrative is "liberal from RI," that's actually good because it means he's addressing the inexperience weakness without having that be the focus.

Socrates said...

Mark Warner's denials have only ruled out a general "any other office" (a la Obama four years ago), and secondly said "my daughters HOPE I don't go for national office". There are hardly Sherman denials people, and testament to his political skils that it has got the media off his back. There are several great Virginia Democrats that could take over his Senate run, the guy would really help in Virginia, and appeal to business-minded independents and southern Whites.

I can easily see in a couple of months time, Warner releasing a statement saying "I was focused on Virginia, and that's where my heart lies, but Barack is a very persuasive man. I really believe he is the President to turn round out country, and I would be honoured to be a part of those plans. I spent a long time talking this over with my family, and they are behind me 100%."

Shadow said...

All this analysis plus 94 comments, and not a single mention of Claire McCaskill?

She would help reinforce Obama's broader authenticy brand, a brand that has recently come under fire - and if Sebelius is not DQ'd for being a woman other than Hillary, neither is McCaskill.

Also, Obama is not "moving to the center". Obama says the same things he always did, and the media makes a non-story into a story - we saw this happen through the primaries, too. There is not a shred of substanstive credence to any of the purported flip-flops addressed by the media. The only thing that is surprising about all this is how dumb some previously intelligent progressives have become to fall for the meme.

packerwatch said...

Ed Rendell shouldn't even be considered because of this:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/04/21/ed-rendell-clinton-surrog_n_97784.html

in 1997, rendell offered louis farrakhan lavish praise. and there's a video of it.

Paul said...

Nate,
Great analysis. I wish that it would be considered when making a choice.
Count me among the group that believes that Obama will select a republican as his running mate.
I know this will piss me and many others off, BUT he is looking to cement his position as "post partisan" which is why we are hearing rumblings out of Clinton world about the "re-polarization" of the electorate.
Given this and the dirt that has been kicked over the lines drawn during the primary I am looking for a Hagel or a Powell.
Just as I am still among those that believe Lieberman is a final three candidate for McCain. McCain will not feel comfortable selecting a VP that he does not have confidence in to advance and protect his views on national security while we are at war.
I wish that I will be proven wrong, but time will tell.

Naomi said...

I think many of you are overthinking this. The VP choice is a story during the convention and immediately after, and for a day when the VP candidates have their debate, and then it fades into the background, generally not considered in any meaningful sense by the undecided portion of the electorate when they finally make up their minds.

By and large, a VP choice should do three things 1) not hurt you, a la the Eagleton case; 2) play the attack dog role (something Edwards couldn't or refused to do in 2004); and 3) add maybe, just maybe, 1 or 2% to the ticket to win a highly competitive swing state. I think Mark Warner could do that in super-close Virginia, and I agree with Socrates above that Warner would accept the nomination if Obama was persistent about it.

Of course, there is always an exception to any rule and this year that would have to be the Clinton candidacy. Due to her dogged (and seeminkgly endless) campaign against Obama for the presidency, Clinton has millions of supporters that will probably only be willing to support the Dem ticket if Hillary is on it. There is also the issue of getting the Clinton fundraising network on board.

I think Clinton is the safest pick, but if Obama can't stomach the idea or 4 or 8 years of Clintonian theatrics, then I would go with Warner. However, if Obama IS going to pick Clinton, I think he should do it sooner rather than later to get the party unified, and to get the Clinton money flowing into the campaign.

lupercal said...

im every bit against rendel. used to like him and thought he had good chemistry with obama even though he's been pretty though against him during the primaries, but the red light moment came when he went to msnbc and took a joke-y swipe at the "obama-is-a-muslim" thing. yeah, i know he's trying to be funny and yeah he doesn't have a lot of awareness for the echo-chambers and the percussion of his words but that was a bit too far. Now, i gotta say that if we're talking about Obama needing to be ballsy, then i guess i can argue that because everyone needs him to be ballsy, then if he makes a ballsy choice, he'll just be capitulating. hence, he needs to make a safe pick. and although i think edwards and bayh makes the ticket look a bit feminine and rock-star-y, the previous blogger who argued about meta-narratives a choice pushes has a point. im still in favor of kathleen sebelius, but im favorable to dodd even though some of us think he's got no chance. this countrywide thing will be pushed by the cable networks aggressively but i think he's the ultimate safe pick. that mortgage thing is just pr affair. and obama doesn't quite have a good pr department yet. in fact, i think they've let a few valuable opportunities pass and haven't been nearly as effective as they should be. which actually worries me. as to criticism that he's moving to the center, i couldn't welcome that more than i do right now. so, that's good news, even though beyond Fisa, this theme is just an illusion than anything else.

Stephen said...

I'm glad to hear some other people agree with me on Richardson being one of the top (if not the top) option.

Ed Rendell seems like a strange juxtaposition with Obama. And not in a complementary surrogate way.

For me-- Richardson is best option. Edwards works ok, but is unlikely 'cause Democrats, America, and media doesn't like backtracking. Gore an extreme of the same argument. Clinton and most vocal cantankerous Clinton supporters will have trouble looking united on message and not like pandering. Bayh wasn't especially cantankerous, he's a possibility. Sebelius good option. McCaskill good option. Biden and Dodd ok options. I'd steer clear of explicit swing state strategies and go for someone with a reasonable resume and looking good and sounding good next to Obama trumpeting the same message. And I think that's the way they'll go.

By the way-- what's "ballsy" and what's "safe" could go in circles forever.

Stephen C. Rose said...

Someone wrote that Obama had said his vp would need to be instantly recognizable as presidential fodder. I would like to know a source for that as I only read it here.

The reason is that it would knock out Schweitzer who is mostly unknown. He is however an attack dog without parallel. He connects with a smile and heavy barbs at the heart of foolish policies.

And he is young enough to succeed Barack after two terms. He would be sixty.

If you see Schweitzer getting Barack hang time, you can bet he is on the short list and that Barack is trying to make up for the is-he-known deficit.

He did have some low key time in North or South Carolina recently and of course over the 4th in MT.

He is also key to Western strategy and miles beyond Richardson as a creative thinker and versatile campaigner.

Picking him would also suggest that Plouffe's internals support both a likely victory and the wisdon of a Westward tilt.

Frank from Germany said...

I am working in international development cooperation - the kind of stuff Obama's mother and Brian Schweitzer used to do. Part of that job consists of putting together specialist teams for complex projects that are financed by organisations like the World Bank or the European Union. So I would like to offer a 'technocrat' perspective on the VP issue - which team would be most likely to get the job done well. That excludes any consideration of election aspects (appeal to certain voters, bringing in speciric states etc.). Those aspects are of course important as well, but, as a non-American, I do not feel qualified to give any respective opinion.

Obama has said himself that he will look for a VP that brings in complementary experience and skills. I think this is a wise approach. It implies that, in order to assess VP candidates, it is first required to assess what Obama hinself is already bringing to the ticket, and where additional expertise might be required.

1.
I see Obama's core strength in the area of 'governance'. This includes, among others, government ethics and transparency, increasing peoples' participation in political processes, re-balancing the executive, parliamentary and judiciary powers, (re-)strengthening civil rights etc. It is probably hard to find a better resume on these issues than Obama's (community organiser, editor of Harvard Law Review, Lecturer on Constitutional Law etc.).
I think this 'governance' background is relevant to the USA, and a clear asset to Obama. [This is, by the way, why FISA may become problematic, because Obama was not just 'flip-flopping' or 'moving to the centre' on some issue, but on an issue in his area of core competence.] This implies, that 'governance' background is not needed for the VP, and may even be dangerous, because Obama and his VP might get into competence struggle on 'governance' issues. Consequently, I would downrate any candidates with legal, auditor general and/or similar background, including Hillary Clinton, Evan Bayh, Janet Napolitanto, Jack Reed.

2. While it appears to be common opinion that Obama has weaknesses in foreign policy, I don't share that opinion. To the opposite, I feel foreign policy to be Obama's second area of core competence, due to his inter-cultural background and up-raising, and also since he is member or even chair of relevant Senate committees.
More specifically, i feel that Obama's foreign policy positions will go very well with European governments. I think he will have huge leverage on US-African relations, and is also extremely well qualified to deal with East and South-East Asia. For example, he spent his first secondary school years in a private catholic school in Indonesia - this is the kind of schools to which the Chinese minority in Indonesia is typically sending their children to.
Obama has less of a background on Latin America and Arab countries, so a little more expertise in these regions might help the ticket. This is making Bill Richardson an obvious complement - if not as VP, than as Secretary of State. Nevertheless, Brian Schweitzer does not look bad in this respect either. However, as said, I don't feel that foreign policy is the No.1 area in which the competence mix needs strengthening.

3. Obama has demonstrated great managerial skills in the way he run his primary campaign. However, it is one thing to build a grass-roots organisation from scratch, and another thing to take over an established bureaucracy and make it implement new policies. Obama's resume does not show extensive governing experience, so I think it is indisbendable to have a VP that actually has governed a larger territorial unit, i.e. a (former) big-city mayor or a governor. Goodbye John Edwards, Jack Reed, Claire McCaskill. And I am not sure that you can (and should) run a government like an army, so I would also not favour Wesley Clark.

4. As concerns issues, Obsma has himself hinted that some more background on climate / energy issues in the team could be good (CNN interview in early Spring, I unfortunately dont't recall the exact date). That would obviously make Al Gore the top choice. If Gore declined the post, Richardson appears to be a reasonable alternative (former U.S. Secretary of Energy, representing the USA during the establishment of the UD Environment Program etc.). Brian Schweitzer is frequently listed as being strong on energy and environmental issues, but I have so far not seen much hard evidence to back-up such claims.

5. As it looks, the key issue of the election, and presumably also a key issue of the new administration, will be the economy. In my opinion, this will need to go alongside with fiscal reform, as (i) tax policy is a key element of economic policy and (ii) the current U.S. budget deficit is neither sustainable, nor financeable, nor helping the US Dollar.
While Obama has so far not fared too badly when it comes to economic and budgetary issues (and clearly better than John McCain), I nevertheless feel there is scope for adding more "beef to the bone".
Consequently, I think it would not be a bad idea to have a VP with Business administration / economics background, and a good record on fiscal issues. Such qualification, however, is surprisingly rare in the field of VP candidates. The only economics graduate I could find is Evan Bayh. Tim Kain has a B.A. in economics, and Kathleen Sebelius a Master in Public Administration. A good record on fiscal issues have Bayh, Sebelius and Richardson. That seems to be about it.

6. Finally - what about military background / experience? I personally think that the worst thing you can have is a politician who thinks he knows more about military issues than the army people in charge. I also think that the military agenda should be set by political considerations, not the other way round. Last but not least: As important as the Iraq war is to US politics today, it would be a gross understatement of other challenges (economy, climate change, health care etc.) if military experience would be made a key criteria for selecting a VP. [Besides: Those who feel differently have an option to vote for, namely John McCain].

In short: If Al Gore wants the job, he should get it. Otherwise, Bill Richardson emerges as the most convincing candidate, combining strong foreign policy and energy background with executive experience and a good track record on fiscal issues. Evan Bayh could enhance the economic, fiscal and executive competence of the ticket, as could Kathleen Sebelius. Brian Schweitzer could bring an interesting combination of foreign, executive and environmental background.

I would invite those four for interviews, and put everyone else
on the reserve list. But that's just me ...

Anonymous said...

All this analysis plus 94 comments, and not a single mention of Claire McCaskill?

I like McCaskill a lot, but it seems to me she has one big thing going for her -- personal chemistry with Obama -- and a lot of potential issues. She has less experience than he does, she represents a key, hard-won seat in a major swing state, and although I like her a lot, I don't think she projects gravitas the way, say, Sebelius or Hillary do.

I feel the same way about her as I do about Webb -- like them a lot in the Senate, don't really want to see them in the Naval Observatory.

Naomi said...

Frank in Germany,

Thanks for your comments. It is a pleasure to have you on this forum as you are obviously well-informed and provide a perspective quite different from most of the rest of us. Your written English is excellent, BTW.

My only disagreement with your previous post is with respect to Bill Richardson. Not even a disagreement perhaps, since you prefaced your comments by saying that you were looking at the candidates from primarily a resume-based perspective.

I agree that Richardson has an excellent resume, but to be frank, I cringe every time I see him being interviewed. I suppose there are some people that never master the art of spoken communication, and Richardson, despite his obvious experience, is clearly one of those. Some here say that he has improved, but I saw him on Face The Nation a couple of weeks ago, and he was just as halting, ill-at-ease and inarticulate as ever, so I doubt he's actually improved to the point where he would not be a libaility to the Dem ticket. A polished debater such as Romney would make mincemeat out of him.

Moreover, as good a resume as Richardson has, the average undecided voter is not going to go online and look up his c.v., they are going to listen to him during the debate and possibly in a few other situations and make their judgment based on those few opportunities where they hear the man speak. If the past is any guide, that will not go well for him and the ticket.

And finally, he doesn't really add much electorally. He would probably guarantee New Mexico's five EVs, but the NM will probably go Dem this year anyway. He does not bring along Colorado as some have suggested. Colorado is only 10% Latino, and about half that with respect to the voting population, and in any case, the Richardson name does not have much political clout in the state, or any other state that is considered competitive at this time.

Bottom line, Richardson is just a bad choice. If you want to go Latino and from the West, Colorado Senator Ken Salazar is a much more impressive speaker than Richardson, and might deliver Colorado if it is a very close race there. Not that I'm an advocate for Salazar; he just looks like a much better choice than Richardson.

mdtaichi said...

Bob Shrum was as responsible for the 2004 Kerry-Edwards strategy and tactics as anyone.
How on Earth can Edwards be continually criticized for failure to repond to the "swift-boaters"?
Obama's David Axelrod will NOT make the same mistakes. That is the brain to be inside of if one wanted to lock-in the bet on who the VP will be.

Anonymous said...

I see Schweitzer as an excellent compliment to Obama in terms of focus. As mentioned above, Obama's strengths and interests are first in fixing government and I believe also in changing the attitudes of people to get people to begin working and functioning together again. He will remove corruption, implement a national health care plan, begin national service programs etc. Underlying all of this is what I see as our biggest problem, our failing infrastructure especially as it pertains to energy. This is Schweitzer expertise. I see him as a no-nonsence nuts and bolts kind of guy with regards to this. He realizes we have a difficult problem to solve, and that we have to use all that is available to us taking into consideration both effectiveness and the environmental concerns. He won't give into ideology that can lead to inefficient decisions. People will believe him and trust him as he comes across in a clear and straightforward manner. That is absolutely critical in the kind of time that we are facing.

I see Obama and Schweitzer as a partnership that would hopefully extend into a Schweitzer Presidency in 8 years. I think initially the government reforms will be paramount and we will be putting in place programs to help people in the difficult economy. Survival, conservation, taking care of each other and making sure that everyone's basic needs are met in the short term anyhow will be early themes. As time passes those problems will be dealt with and the focus will move more and more to the specific infrastructure improvements we are making. In 8 years the lawyer/civic organizer President Obama could naturally give way to the Scientist/Engineer President Schweitzer.l

Anonymous said...

excellent. i'd have to say, this is the premier site for fostering genuine debate. i hope once in a while nate brings up such subjects so that folks who've gathered more info can engage.

st paul sage said...

i'm afraid this seems a little silly, nate. it's like a tv commentator trying to predict the next pitch in a ball game: "well, he just threw him a fastball inside...and so the batter's gonna think he's going to throw off-speed outside.. so he's gonna throw the batter another fastball inside just to fool him...unless the batter realizes it...then he'll throw him an off-speed pitch outside." Nobody knows what the pitcher's going to do (other than the catcher).

first of all clark is out, out, out. there are a lot of people having dress-rehearsals for VP right now, and clark bombed his by stomping on obama's message for a week.

obama is up right now. he is not going to take a big chance with his VP and he doesn't need to (McCain may). and he isn't going to give one rat's ass about the left feeling he's pandering to the center or vice versa.

to assure the nation that he's ready to be their president, he needs to pick someone who exudes competence and moderation and won't step on his message for the rest of the campaign. the only thing i remember gore saying in 1992 was "It's time for them to go."

Very nice - looked great, nice resume, foreign policy expertise, capable of the occsional acerbic shot at McCain - that's what obama needs from a VP. Bayh's perfect. Sebelius might be, Biden is famous for gaffes, but i'll admit i can't think of any other than the "clean and articulate" one.

nkpolitics said...

Obama is a freshman US Senator who has the most liberal voting record and lacks foriegn policy experience. Obama needs to pick a Governor who has foriegn policy experience- comes from a battleground state and won't overshadow him.
My pick would be Bill Richardson.

Michael said...

What's with these claims that Obama has the most liberal voting record? Do you mean among freshman? Is that in fact demonstrable? Because Nate has clearly shown that Obama does NOT have the most liberal voting record in the Senate, and anyone who thinks he's to the left of the Independent social democrat, Bernie Sanders, is either ignorant or delusional.

nkpolitics said...

In politics- Perception is Reality. People consider Obama to be a Left Wing Liberal.

Another Analogy?
I can imply that you are the gayest bastard in this country. Does that mean you are Gayer than Mark Foley or Larry Craig.

lupercal said...

i don't know what being the "most liberal senator" has to do with picking richardson. it's either a sign that either you haven't thought out how to phrase your suggestion, or, more plausibly, that you're just itching to take a political shot at him. in which case, i don't quite see your usefulness in here. if you parse through all the previous posts, im sure you'll realize that you're doing a one-handed clap when it comes to insulting people. (gayest bastard).

Anonymous said...

"Obama campaign really minds the "Obama is moving to the center" narrative, but I'm sure they very much do mind its second-cousin, "Obama is a flip-flopper".
------------------
Since Obama has emphasized change and "new politics" and that the VP won't be picked because of narrow geographic considerations but on their ability to be president and a governing partner with Obama, he risks inviting the flip-flop narrative with Evan Bayh, surely Daschle and Gephardt are impossibilities, certainly Nunn, Hillary because of her ties to lobbyists.

Kaine may invite charges that it's a pick nakedly going for Virginia but because of Obama's personal friendship with Kaine and thus, ability to vouch for his integrity, he can refute such a claim. Plus Kaine's outsider status. Sebelius and Reed prevent the flip-flop charge.

Clark and Edwards can possibly be criticized as flip-floppers themselves which would be a problem.

Gore would work.

Liberal and Proud said...

Michael said...

What's with these claims that Obama has the most liberal voting record? Do you mean among freshman? Is that in fact demonstrable? Because Nate has clearly shown that Obama does NOT have the most liberal voting record in the Senate, and anyone who thinks he's to the left of the Independent social democrat, Bernie Sanders, is either ignorant or delusional.
July 13, 2008 6:55 PM



It's a talking point that the right wing has managed to infiltrate into the public mind (completely agree with you on Bernie Sanders). It comes from the yearly National Journal Senate rankings; where they strip away all but 99 Votes, classify each with a "Liberal" and "Conservative" position; with the "Conservative" position all but baselined along the Bush administration's positions so that the Democratic Presidential candidate is declared "The most Liberal Senator" (Kerry was awarded the title in 2004).

Here's a list of the votes so you can see for yourself how absurd their classifications are:

http://nj.nationaljournal.com/voteratings/votes.htm

It's laughable how pro-Big Business their "Conservative" classification is:

1) Prevent Mexican trucks from operating on most U.S. roads (Yes is Liberal)
2) Establish a Senate Office of Public Integrity to handle ethics complaints against senators (Yes is Liberal)
3) Repeal the federal minimum wage by giving states the authority to set minimum wages (No is Liberal)

Higglytown said...

My former firm was behind Edwards, but what they found here in Michigan was women who were pissed and lashed out violently verbally against a guy who would spend the countless hours running for office during his wife's very real battle with cancer. Pictures of her during that time period showed loss of hair from chemo, with no good reports from doctors. I dont know if that will pop its ugly head up again, or how she is doing. But Edwards was not playing well among a huge part of his base, married females, during the primary.

Higglytown said...

I would think richardson would be a bad choice, does not have the charisma, intangibles for the national public stage. Of course this might depend on who McCain would pick as several of his faves have fewer intangibles and less experience. Richardson should get a cabinet position if desired to show the dems can reach out about as much as repubs do. I mean allowing GWB to have the only fully integrated Cabinet in history seems kind of backwards doesnt it.

nkpolitics said...

Bill Richardson,Evan Bayh,and Bob Graham were on Al Gore's VP shortlist in 2000 and Kerry's in 2004. Richardson had to deal with the Wen Ho Lee Scandal. Bayh was have problems with the women groups for supporting the ban on partial birth abortions and Graham was faced with the personal diaries.

Looking at Obama's VP runningmate- I would eliminate any Governor or US Senator in his first term.
This means Obama needs to consider from
1)Janet Napolitano(AZ)
2)Blanche Lincoln(AR)
3)Barbara Boxer(CA)
4)Diane Fienstien(CA)
5)Chris Dodd(CT)
6)Joe Biden(DE)
7)Tom Carper(DE)
8)Bill Nelson(FL)
9)Daniel Inouye(HI)
10)Daniel Akaka(HI)
11)Evan Bayh(IN)
12)Tom Harkin(IA)
13)Kathleen Sebelius(KS)
14)Mary Landrieu(LA)
15)John Baldacci(ME)
16)Barbara Mikulski(MD)
17)Ted Kennedy(MA)
18)John Kerry(MA)
19)Carl Levin(MI)
20)Debbie Stabenow(MI)
21)Max Baucus(MT)
22)Ben Nelson(NE)
23)Harry Reid(NV)
24)John Lynch(NH)
25)Jeff Bingaman(NM)
26)Bill Richardson(NM)
27)Hillary Clinton(NY)
28)Chuck Schumer(NY)
29)Mike Easley(NC)
30)Kent Conrad(ND)
31)Byron Dorgan(ND)
32)Brad Henry(OK)
33)Ted Kulongoski(OR)
34)Ron Wyden(OR)
35)Ed Rendell(PA)
36)Jack Reed(RI)
37)Tim Johnson(SD)
38)Phil Bredesen(TN)
39)Pat Leahy(VT)
40)Patty Murray(WA)
41)Maria Cantwell(WA)
42)Jay Rockefeller(WV)
43)Herb Kohl(WI)
44)Russ Feingold(WI)
45)Jim Doyle(WI)
46)Dave Freudenthal(WY)

I would eliminate any woman candidate.
1)Chris Dodd(CT)
2)Joe Biden(DE)
3)Tom Carper(DE)
4)Bill Nelson(FL)
5)Dan Inouye(HI)
6)Dan Akaka(HI)
7)Evan Bayh(IN)
8)Tom Harkin(IA)
9)John Baldacci(ME)
10)Ted Kennedy(MA)
11)John Kerry(MA)
12)Carl Levin(MI)
13)Max Baucus(MT)
14)Ben Nelson(NE)
15)Harry Reid(NV)
16)John Lynch(NH)
17)Jeff Bingaman(NM)
18)Bill Richardson(NM)
19)Chuck Schumer(NY)
20)Mike Easley(NC)
21)Kent Conrad(ND)
22)Byron Dorgan(ND)
23)Brad Henry(OK)
24)Ted Kulongoski(OR)
25)Ron Wyden(OR)
26)Ed Rendell(PA)
27)Jack Reed(RI)
28)Tim Johnson(SD)
29)Phil Bredeson(TN)
30)Pat Leahy(VT)
31)John Rockefeller(WV)
32)Jim Doyle(WI)
33)Herb Kohl(WI)
34)Russ Feingold(WI)
35)Dave Freudenthal(WY)
I would eliminate candidates over 60.
1)Evan Bayh(IN)
2)John Baldacci(ME)
3)John Lynch(NH)
4)Chuck Schumer(NY)
5)Mike Easley(NC)
6)Kent Conrad(ND)
7)Brad Henry(OK)
8)Ron Wyden(OR)
9)Jack Reed(RI)
10)Russ Feingold(WI)
11)Dave Freudenthal(WY)

I would eliminate any candidate who supported the Iraq war.
1)John Lynch(NH)
2)Mike Easley(NC)
3)Brad Henry(OK)
4)Ron Wyden(OR)
5)Jack Reed(RI)
6)Russell Feingold(WI)
7)Dave Freudenthal(WY)

I would eliminate any candidate who lacks foriegn policy experience
1)Ron Wyden(OR)
2)Jack Reed(RI)
3)Russ Feingold(WI)


My pick for Obama would be Jack Reed(RI). He has a JFKish personality.
Irish Catholic from the Northeast. Harvard Graduate. Served in the Military. He is progressive enough to satisfy the liberal base in the democratic party he is not too liberal to alienate moderates.
Regarding Rhode Island having a Republican Governor. It would not matter.
Jack Reed is up for re-election this year. If he is selected as Obama's VP. Reed can give up his seat- Democrats can replace Reed with Charles Fogarty. The former two term Lt Governor who narrowly lost the 2006 RI Governors Race to Incumbent Republican governor Don Carcieri or AG Patrick Lynch. If he runs for US Senate and VP at the same time. Carcieri(R) can appoint Reed's replacement if Reed becomes VP.
The only Republican Carcieri can appoint is Lincoln Chaffee. Other republicans will lose in the 2010 Special election. Chaffee will become an independent and caucus with the Democrats.

Justin said...

in retrospect, your comments about the positive side of Rendell's tendency to "glib and be politically incorrect" seem to also apply perfectly to Obama's choice in Biden.

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