Let me comment on a bit more length on the so-called "cellphone problem" -- the fact that many voters are unreachable to pollsters whose samples consist of landline numbers only. This may have some relevance in explaining the Rasmussen results today in Ohio which showed John McCain with a fairly large lead.
The basic issue with cellphone-only households is that their incidence is not distributed evenly throughout the population. Minorities are more likely to be cellphone-only than whites, and men are more likely to be cellphone-only than women. But the most important differences are in terms of the age of the voter.
The below is data compiled by the Centers for Disease Control on the number of cellphone-only adults by age cohort. Actually, it is not just cellphone-only adults -- the CDC also tracks another category which I call "cellphone-mostly" adults. These are people that have a landline, but also have a mobile phone, and use their mobile phone to receive most or all of their calls. I know, personally, a lot of people who fall into this category: they may use their landlines only to make local calls, only to connect to the Internet, only as an emergency in case their cellphone service is down, and they may have the service only because it came bundled with their cable or wireless package. If their friends and family are in the habit of calling them on their cellphones, they may be very suspicious of calls coming into their landlines -- assuming that they are likely to be from telemarketers -- and not make a practice of answering them.
Table 1. Cellphone-Only and Cellphone-Mostly Adults by Age Cohort
As you can see, fully half of all adults under the age of 30 fall into the cellphone-only or cellphone-mostly buckets, and the number is growing every day. About a third of adults aged 30-44 are cellphone-only or cellphone-mostly, and then the numbers trail off once adults pass the midpoint of their lives.
Obviously, if polling firms did not weight by age, this would be an utter disaster for any election in which preferences vary significantly by age. Suppose for example that the following represented the true distribution of the likely voter population in Big Industrial State:Age %/LV Obama McCainThese numbers have been 'rigged' such that each of Obama and McCain receive exactly 50 percent of the vote. Suppose, however, that we exclude cellphone-only and cellphone-mostly voters from our sample, according to their proportions in the CDC data. What you'd instead wind up with is the following:
18-24 10 69 31
25-29 10 60 40
30-44 30 50 50
45-64 35 46 54
65+ 15 40 60
------------------------------
TOTAL 100 50 50Age %/LV Obama McCainWhat ought to have been a tie instead turns into a 3-point lead for John McCain. (And keep in mind that the numbers in this example are hypothetical -- but they probably look something like this).
18-24 7 69 31
25-29 6 60 40
30-44 28 50 50
45-64 39 46 54
65+ 20 40 60
------------------------------
TOTAL 100 48.5 51.5
Pollsters can get around this problem by weighting groups that are likely to be cellphone-only more heavily -- in particular younger voters. This is what nearly all smart pollsters do, and it is considerably better than the alternative of not weighting at all. However, it creates a couple of additional problems.
The first and more commonly-discussed problem is that the cellphone-only voters may not be the same as their landline counterparts, even once we control for age and other variables like race and gender. Urban voters are about 50 percent more likely to be cellphone-only than rural voters, for instance, and while some pollsters weight by geography, others do not. Thus, you may wind up with a biased sample.
But even if the sample were unbiased -- the pollster is smart enough to figure out how to balance all the weights properly -- what you're still doing in effect is to magnify the importance of sampling error. Suppose that a pollster wants to sample 500 likely voters in a state. Roughly speaking, about 20 percent of these -- 100 of them -- are likely to fall into the 18-29 age range. But, about half of those voters can't be reached because they are cellphone-only or cellphone-mostly. So your effective sample size for this subgroup is 50 voters, which carries a margin of error of +/- 14 points. Sometimes, the luck of the draw will come through for you and you'll wind up with a pretty good sample, but other times you'll be pretty far off.
If you are not fortunate enough to wind up with a good sample, what you are going to wind up doing is compounding your problems, because you have to weight all the young voters that you do sample more heavily to make up for the ones that you can't reach because they depend on cellphones.
So what you should get in the habit of doing, where such information is available, is to check the cross-tabs for groups that are known to have problems with non-response bias -- by which I mean check them for younger voters because of the cellphone-only problem. If the pollster was unlucky and wound up with a poorly-representative sample of such voters, it may skew their overall results, as such responses wind up being weighted more heavily.
Is this an issue with the Rasmussen poll in Ohio? Actually, it may be. The poll has McCain leading 50-39 among voters aged 18-29, and 67-33 among voters aged 30-39. Obama leads 55-36 among voters in their 40s, and then McCain leads by single-digit margins among voters aged 50 and up. Such an age distribution is inconsistent with most other polling that we have seen in this election.
This does not mean that Rasmussen screwed up. This problem has nothing to do with Rasmussen; it is common to all pollsters that don't include a cellphone supplement, which means all pollsters except Gallup and Selzer. These pollsters are trying to do everything they can to work around a vexing problem -- that about half the young voters they might want to sample can't be reached, and that they are stuck with small sample sizes of such voters as a result. But it does mean that, if there is greater error in their sample of young voters, it will lead to greater error in their poll as a whole.
7.22.2008
The Cellphone Problem, Revisited
by Nate Silver @ 4:50 PM...see also cellphones, methodology, ohio
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Very tangentially to the election, I wonder:
Pollsters don't poll cell phones because cell phone users get charged for incoming as well as outgoing calls. What would have to change for cell phone service providers to offer free incoming calls? How did we get to a situation where they don't?
Nate, if there were a cellphone wouldn't the cell phone problem lead to *All* Rasmussen polls being skewed toward McCain - not just Ohio today?
Wow, I didn't realize how large a percentage the cell-phone only/mostly crowd was. I guess we won't really be able to test how big their impact is until election day.
Sterling analysis. I think there's a lot of polling error, like this, that will render an election as close as this one a statistical tie up until Election Night, pending a major sea change.
Becky,
The problem I'm addressing here is not necessarily that the poll is biased in one or the other direction. If the pollster is smart enough about how they weight their responses -- and Scott Rasmussen is smart -- they may be able to work around the bias problems. But in the process of conducting this weighting, the pollster increases the margin of error above and beyond its theoretical value.
As a Kerry staffer, let me caution everyone on this. We heard this constantly in '04, that there were hidden constituencies out there for the Democratic candidate, and that a tie in the polls would go to us. There is alot of truth in the post, but I am equally sure that even in today's political climate, a tie goes to the Repub, they simply are willing to do more to wrestle it away. The shamelessness factor is hard to quantify, but it is orders of magnitude more powerful than any polling irregularity.
This explains a lot for me. Bravo.
Nate:
I appreciate your analysis and your attempt to be unbias.
You might as well dismiss all of the polls that don't favor Obama because of cell phone users. However, there clearly seem to be in denial over a recent tread towards McCain. If the poll was favorable to Obama, would you look for a reason to dismiss or diminish is value?
I'm curious if cell phones are such a problem for Rasmussen who do they end up in the top 3 of the pollster ratings?
Very interesting analysis. So the Ohio result with McCain +10 may be random noise generated by the lack of cell phone only crowd receiving the calls.
This reasoning may be equally as possible to the PPP poll showing +8 Obama correct? SUSA at +2 for Obama could be off also for the same reason. That is why we snap shot all polls. There is the Dayton problem though. Young business professionals by the thousands, same with Toledo, very Cell Phone only, very Republican crowd. I wonder how cell phone only use weights with young professionals with middle incomes that have a higher percentage of being republican, verses younger innercity or low income, and whether each of these cell phone user types in each age bracket is likely to vote.
I know I went cell phone only 4 years ago and havent received a poll call since, (PTL and TYJ), and I am not a McCain backer.
I just think lumping age together as cell phone only users may ignore which camp the cell phone only users may be in. A lot of young republicans are cell phone only, fiscally conservative, not wanting to spend money on a land line any longer types.
Interesting analysis. Just one comment, McCain leading 50-39 among voters aged 18-29, and 67-33 among voters aged 30-39 seems a little bit odd.
I don't think Nate is making an excuse for rasmussen, he is just trying to explain a plausible explanation for what might be going on with the OH numbers.
That Rasmussen Ohio poll is really screwy. No way does McCain have a double-digit lead among 18-29 year olds.
One thing to keep in mind about polls is that even if a good, solid pollster does everything right, 1 out of every 20 polls they do will still be completely, totally, utterly wrong. As in outside-the-margin-of-error wrong. That's what the 95% confidence interval means.
Rasmussen does so many polls that they're bound to throw out a few ones that are just plain wrong, and my bet is that we've just seen one.
I am a great example of what you are talking about. From 23-26 I had a landline. For the first few years I used it sparingly and answered rarely. Then I simply had it unplugged for a couple year(I only the line for DSL).
Now I am 27 and for the last year I am cell phone only. Interestingly, I have been polled twice in the last month on my cell phone. Both, however, were local/state oriented polls. I wonder what stops presidential pollsters from getting my number, since these other pollsters clearly have no problem reaching me.
And yes, I am an urban liberal.
I meant I am a McCain backer, or I am not an Obama backer sorry.
So, the last few days Rasmussen has:
Michigan: Obama +8
Ohio: McCain +10
Colorado: Obama +7
Uh, yeah, sure.....
Uh Oh. Obama up 3 in the latest Rasmussen Colorado poll. Since OBAMA is leading, it must be right! Any poll that gives McCain a lead is WRONG.
LINK: http://rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/colorado/election_2008_colorado_presidential_election
Great polling day for McCain!
Landstander,
Yeah, urban liberal alright. I notice that we can spell SATAN out of your name....scaaaaary!
all interesting but shoudln't this bias have revealed itself during teh primaries? if so, which polls/outcomes demonstrate the correctness of the cell phone hypothesis? ras' good rankings through the primaries suggests either he's got the weights right or the hypo doesn't hold -
Look at Movement though,
PPP moved from +11 to +8 O
SUSA moved from +9 to +2 O
Rasmussen moved from +1 to +10 M
Quinn seems to be the only pollster bucking the movement trend going +4 M to +6 O.
Everything else is trending quite emphatically toward McCain, or am I missing something here?
It would seem that Quinn would be the outlier in all these based on balking at the trends among pollsters.
SUSA should come out soon, they have been out about every month to 6 weeks in major markets, maybe that will tell us more on Ohio.
Now Rasmussen has Obama up by 7 in Colorado - 49 to 42, a larger margin than in any previous poll.
I'm confused.
Uhh Tibor..
So, the last few days Rasmussen has:
Michigan: Obama +8
Ohio: McCain +10
Colorado: Obama +7
Uh, yeah, Look at the leaners since you posted the leaners of the other two states buddy.
COLORADO: OBAMA +3%
[50%-47%]
GUYS--READ NATE'S CONCLUSION CAREFULLY BEFORE YOU JUMP ALL OVER HIM....SHORT VERSION: HE IS NOT SAYING THAT CALLING LANDLINES IS PER SE GOING TO LEAD TO BAD RESULTS.....GOOD POLLSTERS WILL GET AROUND THIS BY INCLUDING CORRECT SAMPLES BY AGE, RACE, ETC....THE PROBLEM IS WHEN YOU MAGNIFY THE LESSER AMOUNT OF YOUNG PEOPLE YOU REACH BY LANDLINE, YOU MAGNIFY SAMPLING ERROR.....WHEN YOU FIND A POLL WITH SCREWY AND ONCE-IN-A-POLLING SEASON CROSSTABS (LIKE THIS ONE), IT IS MORE LIKELY TO HAVE A SAMPLING ERROR PROBLEM THAN THE PPP POLL WITH NO UNUSUAL RESULTS...MY ONLY QUESTION FOR NATE WOULD BE THAT WE ALL KNOW THAT OBAMA PERFORMS WELL WITH YOUNG VOTERS, BUT I DO THINK I RECALL SEEING IN PREVIOUS POLLS A SLIGHT IMPROVEMENT AGAIN WITH 65+ AS COMPARED TO PEOPLE IN THEIR 50s BECAUSE RETIREES TEND TO BE DEMOCRATS
Great post as usual - this is a take I haven't heard on the cell-only problem. I don't buy into the undersampling of cell-only voters argument resulting in lower numbers for Obama, or cell-only voters being that different from their non-cell age counterparts used to represent them. That is, I don't think there's any statistically significant bias towards McCain from the cell problem. But, the sampling problems that come about from weighting do seem rather large.
My question is how pollsters can continue to get away with this? You might have a sample size of 1000, resulting in a MoE of 3% - but does this reported MoE take into account the significant weighting, and thus the introduction of additional error? It seems the more you weight the more you are going to make the overall result increasingly unreliable and vulnerable to wild swings and bad samples. I suppose you could increase the overall sample size to create more reliable subsets, but I can't see most pollsters liking doubling or tripling the expense of each poll.
Perhaps the youth of Ohio are more conservative than those in the nation overall.
I think they do tend to overrepresent in the military.
Many conservative influences operate there. To the South it is like KY, to the West like Indiana, to the East like rural PA. Perhaps only the Cleveland and Toledo areas with pockets in the Athems and Columbus academic centers are more typical of the youthful voters who nationwide tend to support Obama.
I am amused by some of the commentary: the evident relief on the left that this lead for McCain can be explained away and the sarcasm on the right chiding them for it.
Wait for the next PA poll. . . still developing.
TURN YOUR CAPS LOCK OFF
Pew's recent research study suggests that the cellphone effect is negligible, or at least that's how I read it: http://pewresearch.org/pubs/901/cell-phones-polling-election-2008
QT
Oops. I meant to ask a question there. I wanted to ask Nate if he agreed with their analysis, or had thoughts on their methodology.
BUT.........the CO Senate race tightened to 49-46 Udall. It looks like this will be another close one, as all the movement was from undecided to Schaffer.
Anonymous at 4:18, I agree. Nate is pointing out what might have been a problem. I do not even read in his remarks that it is a problem. He seems to be more a wait and see. If the next polls coming out back up that +10 M finding routinely, he will be sure to change his numbers. I think he would agree that the trend in OHIO is toward McCain at this point, with every pollster but Quinn showing that result.
To MVRed.com:
I think you need to calm down a bit. No one is saying that the Ohio poll is bad because it has Obama down 10. I think what is being said is that when the poll also contains some numbers that run counter to every other poll that's been conducted in this cycle--namely that McCain leads with the youngest voters--then, one should perhaps try to find the answer as to why this might be. Is it that young Ohio voters are different than in virtually every other state? Or is there a methodological answer to this strange result? That's what's being addressed here.
First off, I would like to say I like this site and Nate's models and am an Independent.
However, I do question why Nate does stories that usually favor Obama while ignoring stories like the New York Times not posting McCain's article and the overall biased toward Obama in the media. Nate did a story about the New Yorker's cover page on Obama...
How does Rasmussen get these "leaners" to disclose a preference? That is to say, what language do they use?
Totally off topic:
I try to keep my anal compulsiveness regarding English usage in check, but today I weakened.
"Bias" is a noun; "biased" is an adjective. A person cannot be bias or unbias. (S)he can only be biased or unbiased, If (s)he does indeed have a bias (or more than one for that matter) then (s)he is biased.
As long as I am ranting, although I don't think I've seen this misuse on this site, people are mixing "dominate" and "dominant." Dominate is the verb. If one dominates another then the first person is "dominant."
Thank you. I feel better.
To The Obama Project, thanks for pointing out the Pew Research. Very interesting. Even though the cell only crowd skews toward Obama, it is not really heavy enough to effect the overall outcome of the polls is what it sounds like they are saying. Does not disprove Nate's hypothesis, but shows that the cell phone only crowd will not really determine the election likely. Drats, and I am in that crowd. I might as well not vote.
mvred-
That +3 with leaners is actually an improvement for Obama with Rasmussen. You should learn to read first before jumping to conclusions.
Onlooker, Nate's never claimed to be objective in his analysis so I'm not really sure why you feel you have the right to question him.
As a 40 year old Cell Phone only in Cinci, OH with a 18 year old Cell Phone only I can tell you I do not believe Obama truly has as large a lead with youth as many think. I think McCain is truly on top of Obama in OH. I also think McCain will take CO by at least 5 points and New Mexico is more a toss up than many think. Having moved to OH from the southwest and having a large base of hispanic friends I know of few that support Obama
@pete kent
"Perhaps the youth of Ohio are more conservative than those in the nation overall."
Yes, perhaps... though, even Kerry won the 18-29 crowd by a 56-42 margin. You really believe that McCain is going to MORE than reverse that against Obama?
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/OH/P/00/epolls.0.html
I am merely offering my opinion and perhaps a suggestion for a future article. We can do that, can't we?
The Obama +3 in Colorado is not the highlight of the Rass state poll there.
Take a look at the Favorability Rating there. It is McCain 61% to Obama 52%.
This far out, if Obama is an 9 point underdog on favorability, he has no shot at winning Colorado.
It seems that there is small I'm not ready to admit I'm for McCain as well as some "go with the flow" I'll vote for Obama. In any case, that favorability disparity is huge.
Nate: Great analysis.
Looking at the McCain leads of 50-39 among voters aged 18-29, and 67-33 among voters aged 30-39, which I deem to be unrealistic, I wonder whether we actually have three factors coming together:
1. Undersampling of younger voters (and of non-whites) due to the cell-phone only effect;
2. Undersampling of urban families with children, who are taking holidays (and would also to a good extent fall into the 30-39 age group) as well as of holiday-making college students (18-29 age group);
3. Undersampling of those who are not at home on a monday evening - those could be professionals (business trips), shift workers (labour union - leaning dem?), or people who spent the night out (rather younger, rather urban, rather single).
The result would be a <40y sample that is biased towards non-college educated rural whites, which may very well go 50-39 and 67-33 towards McCain.
SInce you seem to have access to the cross-tabs, Nate: What about the Latinos? I could imagine younger, cell-phone only Latinos leaning Obama, and older Latinos leaning McCain? What do the RAS OH cross-tabs show in this respect?
Win1withme - I live in Colorado and know of few who support McCain, so you're point is kind of meaningless. We look at polls because our personal relationships tend not to give us a complete picture of the political environment.
Back on topic:
It is summer. Most citizens are not focusing on the campaigns the way the obessive people (I most definitely include myself) on tis site - and on all other political sites I have visited - do.
The odds are that those who pay detailed attention to small shifts in poll results are getting all exercised about noise. I have been saying this in both good times (for me that's pro-Obama) and bad.
Even if a change is real, we won't be able to confirm it for several weeks. So try to relax. You are not going to change things by posting here. My suggestion would be to go out and work for the candidate of your choice. A friend and neighbor of mine is the Dem state rep here, and I had been helping him, but now it would appear that his race will be a walkover so I'll need to find some other campaign to work on.
(Pete Kent: I know you can't relax, but have you tried prozac?)
jack-be-nimble:
That's a load of crap.. McCain's favorables have been pretty good in a lot of places... that doesn't mean he's winning the vote. People can think he's a swell guy without having to vote for him.
Besides, with both candidates over 50%, and just a 9% differential, I don't think there's really anything meaningful to that.
Nate:
Excellent analysis. Have you considered that Rasmussen groups consist of people who think of Obama in more unfavorable terms than every other pollster?
"The proof is in the pudding" There is NO indication of a cell phone polling problem in any of the polls taken in the primaries. Obama supporters naturally conjure up theories as to why a particular poll has gone wrong (like Ohio today) and they fall back on the old/new chestnut of cell phone users. The polling firms are mindful of the potential problems but have taken steps to mitigate the effect. The primary poll results are proof that the cell phone polling problem is a myth
IT'S NOT JUST CELLPHONES. Pollsters also have great difficulty sampling people who frequently change addresses, a group that is even more disproportionately young and minority than cellphone users.
Just before the spring TV sweeps period, I had a solicitor from Nielsen call my landline phone number and stay on for half an hour pleading with me to be part of the ratings service's sample. Why? Because in a ZIP code largely populated by students, I was one of the few residents who had lived at the same address long enough for Nielsen to identify me. (Never mind that I'm a retiree, totally unrepresentative of my neighbors.)
People who aren't listed in the phone book and frequently move are demographic ghosts. No problem when they don't vote. When they do, as many have in the primaries, poll numbers are very shaky.
The really useful comparison would be with the crosstabs for the Rasmussen Ohio poll from June 17th. It'll be easier ro analyse this poll by looking at the change as a shift in age-range. If comparison shows a huge shift towards McCain in the younger demographics, the usefulness of the polling could be determined by asking whether anything has happened to explain such a shift.
But looking at the "issue" questions in the Ohio poll, Rasmussen definitely uses leading questions for non-partisan political issues. My favourite:
"Some people believe that the federal government has become a special interest group that looks out primarily for its own interests. What do you think? Has the federal government become a special interest group?" Shockingly, 71% of respondents agree with some people.
Michael--I disagree...Some Obama supporters have their head in the sand...but when that ridiculous Newsweek poll came out a few weeks ago with a 14 point lead, Nate pointed out the Party ID issues with it and most of the Obama supporters here recognized it was flawed
Higglytown said...
...Does not disprove Nate's hypothesis, but shows that the cell phone only crowd will not really determine the election likely. Drats, and I am in that crowd. I might as well not vote.
I assume you're being facetious, but just in case... VOTE! :)
QT
Sorry Jeff,
Favorables have been even to this point in the campaign or Obama ahead. This is a huge change. In addtion, Obama's unfavorables are beginning to soar.
Slowly, he is becoming John Kerry. The only difference is that Obama can read a teleprompter better that Kerry (better speechifying). Oh sorry, no teleprompters at the debates. No 300 foreign policy advisors to give him the right answer.
Btw, did anyone see his quasi news converence today? First of all, the campaign didn't allow the reporters' questions to be heard on TV. This allowed for no aggressive questions to be heard. Also, regardless of the question, he could answer it in any way he wanted. Is there a transcript or other record of the questions available?
Btw, are we going to see the electoral board change soon. Seems like some updating is due.
To those who constantly go off the deep end when people around here (90% of whom are probably liberal... just throwing a number out there...) repeatedly question polls that favor McCain:
If you thought that supporting McCain was akin to having brain damage (like most people who are prone to thinking do), you'd be wanting to question polls that show good things for him, too.
We have faith that America is smarter and better than it acts. We want to believe that it will do the logical thing and elect the better President, so we try to put a positive tint on news that, like this, indicates that more, not less, Americans are behaving stupidly. Nobody (except those who benefit from it) likes to see that.
It's not that we want Obama to win so much. We just want America to do the logical and smart thing. We're rooting for America, not against McCain. If you loved thinking and saw a poll showing a trend toward less thinking, you'd be outraged, too. If you couldn't follow that, substitute "shooting guns" or "imposing morals on other people" or "xenophobia." The same idea applies. Our viewpoint is just different.
You are frustrating, America.
Run your computer Nate. I'd like to see how the simulations show the 5 polls from today!
Jim S.:
You're right. It's frustrating to see Americans behaving stupidly. And thinking illogically.
And a big part of that is a frustration of the stupidity (and outright lie) that just because someone leans more conservative and does not favor the more liberal and/or progressive candidate, then that person is automatically trying to impose their morals on others, running around shooting guns recklessly, or is a xenophobic white supremacist.
That is an even more heightened sense of stupidity beyond simply being uninformed about Presidential candidates. On the other hand, thank you for your ridiculous diatribe that is easily refuted. You are welcome to go sit in the corner with a dunce cap while you shut your damn mouth.
Rick said:
My favorite poll so far was one conducted a week before the Oregon Primary. It showed Clinton had closed to within 4 points of Obama. The timing of the poll however was not the best. The data was collected over a Saturday and Sunday. On that Sunday, about 70K+ likely voters couldn't be reached. They were at an Obama rally. Obama ended up prevailing in Oregon by 18 points.
Holy shit!
Bombshell coming. Press release hitting the major newswires revealing a conversation Obama had with overseas leaders about foreign diplomacy.
Reportedly, when asked about Iranian aggression and the potential for Russian and Chinese aide to the Iranians if they were to attack the United States, Barack Obama said he would aggressively seek a peace treaty that would unconditionally surrender US interests if such a multilateral military move were to be made against the US.
He's waving the white flag. It's over. There's no hope now after this gets made public. Mainstream America WILL NOT VOTE for such a novice who will concede the entire country to the enemy.
Wow! And to think he's gotten this far and this close! Scary indeed!
Jim S;
As IHD pointed out -- you are the dope. . . .or perhaps on it.
How dumb of roughly half the people to reject the candidacy of a former community organizer from Chicago. With a CV like that, its samll wonder we don't just elect him by acclamation!
And please, can someone explain to me just what a "community organizer" is?
Was he one of those guys who worked the neighborhood with "walking around money" on election day?
I just don't understand what he did.
Y'all can inform me, can't you?
Loved the bit about Obama controlled his press conference. Vintage stuff.
So tightly controlled. What the heck is he afraid of?
@Frank,
Grrrr. Euro's drive me bonkers, particularly when they try to interpret US politics for us. Vacations do not affect polls here. Evidently, they must impact the ones in Germany, but not here. Let it go. NO!
Nate's thoughts on undersampling certain demographics are reasonable. Testing the hypothesis is more difficult, but it is reasonable. Perhaps geographic analysis would be helpful, although I do not have access to the Rasmussen crosstabs (may be there, may not!). Also, take a look at Jay Cost's article on Realclearpolitics.com about Ohio and winning versus losing coalitions for Dem's. Another interesting place to look is Dave Liep's website.
I seriously doubt McCain has any lead at all among the under 30 crowd, as many of the posters have commented. In order to win Ohio, McCain needs to go into the election with at least a 6 point lead as a composite of Ohio polls. If the election were held today, my money would be on Obama in Ohio.
Die-Hard 'Pub
@Jack-be-nimble
I'm not worried about Obama at a debate without a teleprompter are you worried your old man will again forget the difference between Sunni and Shia without Liberman there to whisper in his ear?
So does anyone actually want to talk about what Nate said? Cell phones may be causing introduction of significantly larger margins of error in polling. The may lead to inexplicable swings through overweighting non-representative subsamples.
It's a perfectly reasonable point that hasn't really been addressed elsewhere. It also would explain why a sub-sample of youth voters which otherwise would overwhelmingly favor Obama appear to favor McCain in a single poll. Note that it works both ways though - if you see Obama with an 80-20 lead among under 30's in a poll, it has the same problem.
So the final result is that we need to actually check the crosstabs to see if any suspect poll passes the smell test. If a pollster only sampled 25 under 30's and is using that to represent 10% or more of his poll results, there's bound to be problems.
scdono: ...there clearly seem to be in denial over a recent tread towards McCain. If the poll was favorable to Obama, would you look for a reason to dismiss or diminish is value?
Obviously, the same reasoning applied in OH to a poll that favored Obama would produce an even larger lead for Obama.
A more relevant question is whether Nate has looked for and critiqued, or reduced the significance of, polling methodologies that unduly favor Democrats.
That can be answered in the affirmative, as shown by the criticism Nate has written with regard to Zogby Interactive polls, and the significant reduction in weight he applies to them in the polling averages of the projection model.
So the answer to your general question is, yes, Nate does look for polling bias and sources of methodological noise on both partisan sides of the projection model.
.
Pete Kent:
Most people who'd like to be taken seriously would look something up when they don't know what it is. But you're too lazy or stupid to look up "Community Oranizer."
Ooh, I forgot. You have soemthing far mor important to do: Spending hours every day filling up bandwidth on multiple sites, posting the same information over and over.
Here is the link, but you're not really intersted in it, are you? If you were you would have found it yourself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_organizer
I do understand that prozac can be an effective treatment for Obessive-Compulsive Disorder.
Nate,
Do you have any information about how cell phone ownership/use has changed during the last couple election cycles. I wonder if it is possible to run an analysis that compares error on polling in past elections with cell phone usage. It seems like you'd have to factor in cellphone use by age, turnout by age, differences in candidate preference by age, and other information that it might be hard to get your hands on...
Still, it would be interesting...
--KRP
Too many people here are assuming that the issue is whether the lack of cellphone only calls leads to bias (presumably against Obama).
But that's only one aspect. The other is that the imputation of voter preferences to the cellphone only population based on the reported preferences of the landline respondents also risks a substantial amount of random error because the size of the underlying respondent pool is very small. As Nate notes, the margin of error both for that age group and for the sample of a whole is significantly larger than the standard statistics would imply.
And this error could in one poll skew the results to the pro-McCain side and in another poll of the state state skew the result fo the pro-Obama side. If instead of interviewing 100 young (under age 30) likely voters who split 50-50 for the two candidates you had, say, an unbiased "coin flip" based on 30 actual likely young voters, and 70 imputed likely young voters, well . . .
Flip a coin 30 times and see how close you get to 15 heads. Then flip it 100 times and see how close you get to 50 heads. Repeat the experiment 10 times (like drawing 10 samples), and calculate the mean and standard deviation of the proportion of heads using 30 flips and the mean and standard deviation using 100 flips. Both the ten 30-person samples and the ten 100 person sample may end up with means that are very close to .50. But the variance is going to be much larger with the small (30 flip) samples. And a lot of the deviations from the means are going to go in each direction.
Somebody here should do the math. I can't.
But the real point is that using a small -- even an unbiased -- sample from which a larger number of respondents is imputed is simply going to produce very inconsistent results from one survey to the next even if there is no underlying actual change in the candidate preferences.
Listen... I'm just explaining why we react that way. I think voting for McCain is either a) self-interested (you're rich and like tax cuts regardless of if it's deficit spending, you want conservative justices who will impose religious scruples... liberal justices won't do that, you just feel more comfortable with an old white dude, etc.) or b) completely ignorant of what is best for the country (getting out of Iraq and mending our image abroad, fixing health care, demanding more of ourselves as Americans and not expecting the answers to come from Washington... if you think they have a switch that can change the price of gas... McCain's most successful talking point, I think they've proven they forgot where it is, etc.). I, personally, am hurt if Obama rolls back Bush's tax cuts, but since I'm more interested in what's good for the country, I can vote against my own self-interests.
If you think that it makes any sense at all, in this environment, to elect a man who will hurt our image abroad, supports most of the failed policies of this administration, and is so old that you wouldn't hire him for any other job in the country aside from greeter at Walmart, then I suppose you must have some pretty solid reasons. It's just confusing how any of them come from thought.
IHateDouchebags:
If you don't think that the typical conservative platform is based on imposing morals (abortion, gay marriage, marijuana and alcohol laws), framing the discussion of liberty solely around the possession of guns and nowhere near discussion of the first amendment (SHOW ME YOUR ID, NOW! it's for security purposes, so it's ok), and xenophobia (breaking laws to build a fence to address immigration problems and inciting fear of Muslims when the scantest fraction of them hold the beliefs of our true enemies and almost all of them are, at their core, decent, good people), then I don't know what to tell you. I agree that what I said was a little sensationalistic, but it is, in my experience, 100% consistent with how conservatives function.
What are the key components of a conservative platform if not what I mentioned, then? I'm willing to be swayed. Until then, I just think you want to vote for what's best for your world. That, to me, is the definition of selfish and the opposite of patriotic.
Die-hard Pub: "Vacations do not affect polls here." You mean, college students in the USA don't have holidays, and don't visit families or friends? And that family that we met in Southern Italy three years ago in July did only pretend to come from Chicago, and was in fact Canadian? As were all those people we met in Greece last summer? Guess you are right, since I am only a Euro (actually, a Frank, but not a Swiss one).
There's another issue not described here: I have a NJ area code but I live and vote in MD. I was polled for the Super Tuesday NJ primary even though I had no impact on it
Jim S.
I don't want to engage in a major policy debate lest we enrage the other posters who only want to sift through pertinent information.
I just know that, as a conservative, I want our image improved abroad, health care fixed and available to everyone, et al too. Some things Obama says aren't too far off base, but others make me think he doesn't have a better path to fixing it than anyone else.
I find two points of contention. First, your statment:
"demanding more of ourselves as Americans and not expecting the answers to come from Washington"
The liberal platform (in my humble opinion) has NOT been one to cause people to demand more of themselves and has only perpetuated the reliance of too many Americans on answers from Washington through an over-reliance on certain entitlment programs. I'm not saying people shouldn't be helped, but they should be helped when they are needy. We've just been giving handouts to some people who refuse to do anything, and liberals refuse to budge from that mantra.
Secondly, your immigration argument lacks any credibility if you are truly a liberal who stands up for the poor and lower/middle/working class of Americans. It's been proven by study after study that illegal immigration has damaged the economics of these groups of Americans whereas only the middle-upper classes and rich benefit.
I consider myself middle-upper class. My salary is more middle, but I work at a job that's more white collar and in no danger of being taken by an illegal immigrant. I want to see drastic reform that discourages illegals (not deportation or a big fence - but where they can't work here through regulation overhauls) and benefits our lower and middle classes.
You can't have your cake and eat it too on the immigration argument. Either you pander and reach out to illegals and hurt local citizens or you take a hard stand against illegals (I know that's tough for your liberal mindset to actually say "no" to somebody) and benefit our working classes and poor.
That's where I'm coming from.
Holy shit!
Bombshell coming. Press release hitting the major newswires revealing a conversation McCain had with spiritual leaders about life and death.
Reportedly, when asked about how much his life has been worth to him, McCain opened his mouth and keeled over. Details are fuzzy but it is widely believed that John McCain has croaked, and not too soon, as he had just received his invitation from Christ, postmarked some 6,000 years. The McCain campaign plans on releasing a statement blaming McCain's timely death on media bias.
He's waving the white flag. It's over. There's no hope now after this gets made public. Mainstream America WILL NOT VOTE for such a novice who will concede the entire country to Barack Obama.
Wow! And to think he's gotten this far and this close! Scary indeed!
Nate...no posting about Begich's 9-point (!!) lead over Ted Stevens in Alaska?
That deserves a thread all on its own!
The kingpin of corruption is going down in flames.
Hmmm,
I see the Anon above posted the satirical reply to the poster from earlier, Nate's Arch Nemesis.
Funny as it is, it's obvious the anon's post is false, but I can believe Obama will surrender the country to foreigners.
Sorry, you get points for being funny, but the other poster was much closer to the mark on accuracy.
not too funny joking about mccain dying...i believe obama will surrender. he's got you there...
I just love all the Hillary-esque spin coming from McCain supporters.
"But you see, all those people who are just saying they'll vote for Obama... they're uh... just saying that, they really like McCain but they think the robo-calling computer will make fun of them. Yeah... yeah, that's the ticket!"
Of course, another explanation for favorability is that McCain's supporters are more radicalized against Obama due to his heavily negative campaign.
Sorry, anon@6:42. Your "witty" reply fell short. THat's obviuosly a farce but its pretty plain that Obama is going to hand the country over to radical terrorists.
I'm starting to buy into the hype now. What's this I'm hearing about Obama surrendering? I can't find the link...I believe it, but I want to see the proof too.
Classic U of C guy! Make a Heckman like selection assumption on missing data.
If P(Y|Cell) = P(Y|Landline) seems too strong most trained economist will go to the next best thing and assume P(Y|X,Cell) = P(Y|X,Landline). That is, the observable X's are sufficient to know the distribution of Y conditional on Cell phone users.
I warn, even if we know the distribution of characteristics for cell phone users they may be drastically different voters than landline voters of similar characteristics.
Ahh to heck with it, just put a prior on those things!
Anon@6:42
Go do your left-wing trolling somewhere else. This is a polling site, and the comments in the last few threads have gotten way off base. You posted the most ridiculous and left-wing statements I've ever read on here, and that's saying something. Go somewhere else where your ignorance is welcome.
"Left-wing ignorance." Great job at pinpointing an anonymous posters political leanings based off a copy-cat "satire." Is "left-wing ignorance" not welcome but "right-wing ignorance" is?
Nate's Arch Nemesis said...
Holy shit!
Bombshell coming. Press release hitting the major newswires revealing a conversation Obama had with overseas leaders about foreign diplomacy.
Reportedly, when asked about Iranian aggression and the potential for Russian and Chinese aide to the Iranians if they were to attack the United States, Barack Obama said he would aggressively seek a peace treaty that would unconditionally surrender US interests if such a multilateral military move were to be made against the US.
He's waving the white flag. It's over. There's no hope now after this gets made public. Mainstream America WILL NOT VOTE for such a novice who will concede the entire country to the enemy.
Wow! And to think he's gotten this far and this close! Scary indeed!
July 22, 2008 5:25 PM
There's the post the anonymous poster you're crying over copied and switched around to fit his own agenda/humor/what have you.
To Anon@7:02,
Yes. It's obvious it was a copy-cat, satirical response. But John McCain hasn't keeled over and died.
Obama is on the record saying he would surrender the country in an attack.
So while the original posting is outrageous, it has some truth to it. The response about McCain dying is just outright ridiculous.
Matthew S.,
Until you can link me to the record, you're full of it. The original poster failed to supply us with proof. Everyone clamoring below him for the proof still has yet to receive it and yet here you are claiming it's "on the record." Much like the anon posting that McCain is dead, there's nothing true about it but asinine fear of an ultra-liberal black man.
I've been trying to understand the point of these ridiculous (and typically anonymous) posts, and I finally have concluded that these are deliberate troll plants intending to supply misinformation to the average viewer - and particularly, I suspect that the same poster is actually having conversations with him/herself. Classic troll stuff. I know Nate and Sean don't have much time for moderation, but I do think that comments should be limited to members only and people who fail to behave should be banned outright.
QT
IHateDouchebags (couldn't agree more, btw):
When we strip away the venom, most Americans are closer than they are farther apart.
To give you some background, I'm a former Republican who voted for Bush twice (and am completely ashamed of it). I'm small government, fiscal responsibility based, but my views on social issues have changed drastically recently (thought about the logic of God, came to some conclusions... I'm just more socially liberal now is what you should take from this is all). When the Republicans stopped delivering on the small government, there was just no use voting against my other beliefs, so hence the switch (I'm pretty sure all Americans think government spending is out of control).
To hit these points briefly, likewise in an effort to avoid enraging people. I agree that the liberal platform in many cases has not been good for the country. I'm a serious meritocracy believer and would prefer the government spend as little money as possible, helping only those that truly need it (while remembering that those we do help are our American neighbors and fellow citizens, regardless their lot in life). When I made that statement, I was referring more to Obama's willingness to say something a little unpopular and challenge Americans to improve ourselves as a people from the individual upward. He's gotten flak for "talking down" to the black community. Well it's stupid to suggest that the black community as a whole doesn't need to consider the effect the lack of active fathers is having. I guess maybe I'm just believing that he will challenge Americans to be better Americans. I do not see John McCain inspiring greatness from the masses with his words. I think we need serious change across our nation to address our country's problems (have you ever heard the Comptroller General talk?) and I think it's going to need to be well articulated how and why we need to go through these changes. This one is truly just a difference of opinion, or more accurately a difference of gut feeling about a guy.
On immigration, I feel that we need more people on the borders and less fences. Instead of spending a lot of money to violate a thousand different law and statutes in an effort to build a wall in towns that don't want them (what if people in Texas wanted to build a wall in Kansas... would you not be upset?), why are we not spending money and giving people JOBS on the border assuring our security? We both agree that a tightly secured border is job number 1 to solving any of this, right? Because if we can't stop them from coming in, it doesn't matter what the rules are.
Now, I think we need legal channels for people who who desire to add value to our country to legally enter and work. Where those people come from, the color of their skin, and the language they speak isn't really that important to me. I think a lot of people have forgotten how recently German, Polish, Irish, Italian, Portuguese, and other European people mass-immigrated here. A lot of their first generations did not speak English. People get caught up because of the language barrier (and frankly the skin color), but in every immigration case in the history of our country, the second generation learns English and integrates into society. They came to the USA for goodness sake... they want to be American (which, though not legally, does entail speaking English). How we deal with the people who are here already... I think we need a lot of smart brains in a room to come up with a good answer. I trust Obama to lead that discussion more than McCain. Somehow, we need at least some of them to do the jobs that they're currently doing. We just don't have enough people. Morally, I think if they're positive contributors to a community, they should be able to stay. I understand they broke the law, but breaking the law to work and feed your family is a fairly noble breaking of the law in my book. Fine them, but kicking them out of the country en masse is too much.
To add to the point about illegal immigration from Mexico in particular. The sooner Mexico is a modern nation, the better. Imagine how great our country would be if Mexico was as modern a neighbor as Canada? That is, directly, in the interest of our nation, yet we're investing a lot more effort into other regions of the world.
The biggest point, to me, has nothing to do with policy at all. I just trust Obama to keep a focus on what's important (not getting wrapped up in military...) and take actions that are in the best interest of America today, America in five years, America in 50 years, and America in a century. John McCain, literally, has a very small chance of seeing the effects of his Presidency. I do not doubt his patriotism, but I do question whether he could possibly understand what America needs to move forward in a modern world. Does your grandpa understand the importance of information security within the government (computer files and such)? He just can't possible understand the world as it exists to people of my generation (I'm 28) and those younger than me (you can extend that upward another 10 years, I'd say). We're impacted by his actions and we pay the bills for any of his bad decisions. I don't care what policies he believes in, he doesn't understand my viewpoint on them. It's literally impossible for him to. So... if you want to saddle your children (or grandchildren... our country's youth) with the decisions of a man who knows nothing of the world they are growing up in and will live in, then I ask you to consider which of us is taking a gamble on a candidate. I hope that didn't sound contentious... I just want you to know that I am, truly, baffled by the support he receives. I hope you can at least understand my view on it now. When half our country spends a serious chunk of our lives on the internet and one candidate doesn't use the internet, I find it hard to believe he can represent our best interests.
"Win1withme said...
As a 40 year old Cell Phone only in Cinci, ... I do not believe Obama truly has as large a lead with youth as many think. ... I also think McCain will take CO by at least 5 points and New Mexico is more a toss up than many think. Having moved to OH from the southwest and having a large base of hispanic friends I know of few that support Obama"
OK great. As a Michigan resident I see Obama registering new voters every day and everyone I run into is voting for him. I never meet someone who wants to vote for McCain. My white friends support Obama. But who cares about my experience or yours? We provide anecdotal evidence. That's why we go to this site, which provides cumulative data, to understand what is going on in the entire nation, not just within our own circle of friends or our own hometowns.
As for CO, Obama has held an extremely consistent small lead there in all polling, and NM is similar (less consistent, but also less small). I don't know about the youth vote in OH. Maybe Nate should look into previous OH polls to see if they showed similar proportions to the Rasmussen one. I've only seen aggregates. I'd be surprised if you were right that Obama does worse among under 30s than he does among 30-40s, but it's an empirical question. Just please stop bringing your personal experiences to bear.
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I think that's an important point. People move in small circles; extrapolating your community to a macro level just doesn't work. President Clinton is on the money when he talks about communities of like-mindedness.
Additionally we tend to receive a bad signal when we do look locally. Many people treat politics as a private matter. In an area that has strong Obama support a McCain voter might not speak up as readily as in a conservative bastion.
It's much better to draw inference from polling than anecdotally. If you insist on reading your community look to trends from election to election (registration, demography, economic conditions).
Nate,
As much as I value this site and your analysis, as well as that of a few other posters, I'm going to have to abandon the comments, at least, unless something can be done about the adolescent trolls on the site.
There are innumerable sites where one can express one's opinions of the candidates, pimp your stock recommendations, and make asses of yourselves. I, and I'm sure others, would prefer that comments here reflect at least a three digit IQ.
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Is there additional confusion introduced by people who use a VOIP phone as their only phone? The local traditional phone companies are so expensive that people (like me) simply get broadband internet and add Vonage or other VOIP phone service to have a "land line" - yet we never get cold calls from telemarketers nor political survey calls. I am unsure why, though I am grateful; but how many of us are there?
Beware of wishful thinking. Ohio's 20-40 year old population is not so much like the same on the coasts.
1. I would guess that, of the ones in college or with a college education, more (percent-wise) live with their parents, and I would also guess that young men and women who are about 30 & living with their parents have political views that are closer to those of their parent's demographic.
2. Not a lot of opportunity for young people in Ohio. The "good ones" -- the really high-achieving ones -- tend to leave the state. So even the educated kids, who should vote overwhelmingly for Obama, are bitter about the state of things.
3. Good portion of Appalachian people. It's just a fact that the people in this area are more racist than the people in other areas, one that is pretty easily explained (but not justified) by the history of such people going back to before the Civil War.
4. A lot of military, as someone said.
I can definitely see McCain doing better in Ohio than Kerry. Esp. because it does not look to me like Strickland & Bruuner have done much of anything to correct the significant structural advantage that Republicans have in the vote-collecting department (few polls in urban areas, many in suburban ones, etc.)
I remember when the Howard Dean people latched on the cell phone bias theory in 2003 and 2004. It's grasping at straws. Don't tune out polls you don't like: face the reality, which is, I don't think Obama is close to taking Ohio yet ... much work to be done in Ohio still ...
Anon-
It's not just that Ras's numbers on 18-40 are out of line with numbers on that demographic in other states. They're also out of line with that demographic's preious poll and elction results in Ohio. RAS missed the mark on at least that part, and it may have tainted his whole poll. They probably know that, so I suspect we'll see another poll from them sooner rather than later to either confirm or refute these results.
I won't say I told you so on CO yet. The race is tightening all over
Quinnipiac/WSJ/WP
Michigan: Obama 46, McCain 42Minnesota: Obama 46, McCain 44Colorado: McCain 46, Obama 44Wisconsin: Obama 50, McCain 39
There is another possibility : pollsters need to sell their polls. And a lot of people have interests in a close race... And summer is politically boring...
Let's wait till conventions...
Then, it will be funny or scary...
The problem with cell phones is that they have no fixed location. An Ohio area code will not necessarily connect to a cell phone held by someone living in Ohio and an Ohio resident may have a cell phone with an out of state area code.
Another problem is that many areas of the country (Maine, Vermont, and Alaska, and parts of Kansas, Wyoming, and Utah) have bad or non-existent cell phone service. So pollsters who go after cell phone users may bias against land line owners.
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