As several observers have noted recently, including yours truly, June polling has not been a particularly good predictor of November results. In four out of the last five elections, the candidate leading in the polls in June went on to lose the popular vote. The largest discrepancy was in 1988, when Michael Dukakis, 8.2 points ahead in June, would eventually lose the election by 7.8 points -- a catastrophic 16-point swing against the Massachusetts governor.
This election too could move in any number of different directions. While Obama can presently be regarded as the healthy favorite, think of what a 16-point swing would mean in this year's election. If that swing were in Obama's direction (giving him a 21-point victory when added to his current lead of about 5 points) we would project Obama to win all states except Alabama, Idaho, Oklahoma and Utah. If it were in John McCain's direction instead, giving him an 11-point win nationwide, we would have him winning 42 out of 50 states.
The way that the Republicans achieved that big swing in 1988, assisted by a couple of significant gaffes from the Dukakis campaign, was to portray Dukakis as too liberal for the American mainstream. The same basic strategic template was employed against John Kerry in 2004. However, this strategy is unlikely to work in 2008. How come? Barack Obama is already perceived as being very liberal.
In a Rasmussen Reports poll conducted last week, 67 percent of likely voters described Obama as liberal, including 36 percent who described him as very liberal. By contrast, only 45 percent of voters described John Kerry as liberal in May of 2004, and 53 percent by November, 2004.
This shouldn't be terribly surprising. Obama is best known not so much as a candidate for the Presidency, but as one for the Democratic nomination. In contrast to Dukakis, who had both Jesse Jackson and Gary Hart flanking him to the left, and Kerry, who was perceived as the more centrist, electable alternative to Howard Dean, Obama had emerged by the end of the primary campaign as running to Hillary Clinton's left (Clinton being no conservative herself). Indeed, Obama is already perceived as substantially more liberal than Kerry was even after the Swift Boat ads, months' worth of framing the narrative, and tens of millions of dollars in attack advertising had gotten done with him.
But Obama is winning.
It may be that the primary fault line in this election is not liberal versus conservative, but change versus experience. Voters might think that Barack Obama is slightly further from them ideologically than is John McCain -- but they might also think that the country has been governed for eight years by a conservative, and that this governance has failed.
It may also be that voters are more conservative in theory than in practice. According to Rasmussen, 36 percent of voters describe themselves as conservative as opposed to 25 percent who say that they are liberal. This figure is not all that different from 2004, when 34 percent of voters said they were conservative and 21 percent liberal in exit polling. But if you look at the specific issues that loom largest in this campaign, the liberal position on things like pulling out from Iraq, implementing some kind of national health care policy, and increasing environmental regulation each poll at roughly 70/30 majorities.
There is also a school of thought that voters in Presidential elections tend to base their decisions less on the ideological attributes of a candidate and more on the personal ones. Obama's favorability rating presently stands at a +25. By contrast, John Kerry rarely did much better than even on this metric, depending on the specific wording of the question.
Either way, this is a significant problem for the Republicans. If their strategy is to say "Hey! Hey! Barack Obama is a liberal!", the American public's reaction is likely to be "Well, no shit! We're voting for him anyway."
This is not to say that McCain can gain no traction at all by trying to seize the political center. In fact, in an election in which the Democrats have something like a 4:3 edge in party identification, McCain absolutely has to find some way to win a majority of independent voters, and perhaps a fairly substantial one. Moreover, while the voters appear to be ready to elect a President they perceive as liberal, they surely won't be ready to elect one they perceive as radical, and so we can expect the Republicans to continue to play up Obama's associations with figures like Jeremiah Wright and William Ayers. This remains relatively dangerous territory for Obama.
However, if the Republicans attempt to recycle the 1988 or 2004 playbooks, they will probably not find the results to their liking. And if McCain at any point refers to Obama as a "Card-carrying member of the ACLU", you can be pretty sure that this election is over.
6.22.2008
Why Obama isn't like Dukakis
by Nate Silver @ 4:21 PM...see also history, ideology, obama, political spectrum
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I haven't seen much written about it, but Obama has moved considerably to the center since wrapping up the nomination. In policy speeches and in answering town hall questions, he seems much more moderate than the "most liberal senator" that Republicans would like to paint him as.
That's normal; you run to your party's ideological wing to win the nomination, and then run as a "unifier" in the general. But I would suggest, with all due respect to Nate, that if you think McCain's supporters can't portray Sen. Obama further to the left than he's already portrayed, you're dreaming. They are going to portray him as a radical. It will be the first time--maybe since Goldwater--that a major party sought to brand the opposition's presidential candidate as someone who will seek to bring down America. It is going to be ugggg-leeeee.
Nate's article told only half of the story: how the GOP/McCain will try to portray Obama, including roping him to a Willie Horton type of rock and trying to sink him in Lake Michigan.
But the Obama campaign has a great deal to work with as well, tying McCain to Bush, big lobbyists, big oil, big pharma, militarism, and tax breaks for the rich.
This may well turn out to be the type of campaign that liberals have been wishing for for a long time: fought along left-right ideological lines, and that dimension dominating over 'distractors' and non-economic 'values' except the values of 'change' and caring for the interests of all the people.
Sorry in advance for this completely, absolutely, überly off-topic comment.
I'd like to cast one more vote for the suggestion made by another foreign reader of 538 (an Australian IIRC), that Nate publishes the % of traffic that comes from outside the USA. It would surely be interesting. I'm guessing that it may be more than 10% of the total traffic of the site.
The fact is that Obama will win the election because of the way the Bush administration is perceived by the American public. In every election where the incumbent power had an approval rating of less than 50%, the opposing party has been voted into power. Opposing parties have won general elections when incumbent governments have had approval ratings over 50% like in 2000, however. McBush does not have a chance to win this election.
I think a better argument for why 2008 will not be a rerun of 1988 has to do with the fundamentals. The domestic economy, the foreign policy situation, and the popularity of the incumbent party are much different now than they were then; and social scientists have found that these are the best predictors of presidential vote share. These factors, rather than perceived candidate ideology, are what will win Obama the election.
Hey Nate,
you screwed up at least two sampling sizes, probably more, and forgot to add at least one statistically significant poll.
Now have fun searching for those polls :)
Your most humble and obedient servant,
Rasmus
Rasmus: How unkind of you. If you really want to be helpful, you could be.
What is a Liberal, or a Conservative, anyway?
These words come from revolutionary times. Both here, and in France, after their revolution, the people split into two major camps.
There were those who sided with the king, with the royalty, with the tyrant. they were the ones who wanted to CONSERVE TYRANNY. That's all they wanted to conserve. nothing else. just the status quo, of there being very very few wealthy and powerful, and the rest of us in abject poverty and with no power at all.
Then there were the LIBERALS. literally from the latin for "freedom," LIBERALS were for... LIBERTY... FREEDOM... basically the American way.
It is liberals who are generous. liberals are well educated, well read, more apt toward science, invention, innovation, good old american know how.
As a liberal, i want to see monopolies broken up. I believe in having a Renaissance. I don't want 1 rich family and millions in abject poverty.
I won't run away from the label that is what america stands for.
I replay the 1988 presidential debate in my head sometimes, when the man, george bush, who toppled many democratically elected leaders all over the world, to replace them with cooperative dictators had the gall to use the word 'liberal' against Dukasas as if it were some kind of curse word. I can understand that from the standpoint of somebody who has friends from the american fascist party, such as bush, who has always sided with the powerful elite few that take all of our money and freedom, something like liberty is a curse word.
but that's what america has been founded on. and i want our word back. most people in this country are liberal. they just don't know what the word even means.
"Juris
Rasmus: How unkind of you. If you really want to be helpful, you could be."
I am as helpful as Nate is to me.
I don't know. I think pointing out that Obama claims that he will bridge the partisan divide yet holds no conservative-moderate position on any major issue will help McCain who (much to the dismay of his Republican base) definitely is a liberal-moderate on immigration, climate change, campaign finance reform, etc.
Foreign reader, Alexa.com currently states that 90.2% of FiveThirtyEight.com's traffic is from within the United States with the bulk of the remainder from Canada and the UK. Alexa is not a perfect measurement by any means, but it is at least a good one.
http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details/fivethirtyeight.com
I always thought it was a mistake to run from the Liberal name. Over the last eight years, every time the Republicans called someone a Liberal, I hoped that that candidate would just say "Yes, I am... so?" "Liberal" and "Conservative" are more brands than ideologies - who would consider today's Conservatism the same thing that was called Conservative in the 70s? By running from the name "Liberal," the Democrats have let the Republicans define their brand. Republicans have said "Conservative good, Liberal bad," and the Democrats have said "I agree" for the past 30 years. Running to the center is a necessary strategy, but where the Democrats have failed is where the Republicans have succeeded: They should be running to the center, while promoting ideas of the left, all the while calling themselves Liberals and being proud of it.
Fractal, the meaning of "conservative" and "liberal" has changed several times in different political contexts. There is substantial disagreement within the conservative moment about what "conservative" really means in a political sense. The conservative values of Rep. Ron Paul are considerably different from the conservative values of Pres. George W. Bush and Sen. John McCain, for instance.
Regarding the actual post by Nate, I agree with the analysis; I could be wrong, but I believe it would be unprecedented for the current ruling party to retain the White House with such an unpopular incumbent president, especially with a candidate so closely linked to him on a majority of major issues. June polling may be historically inaccurate, but this entire election is historically inaccurate.
Where Obama can counter the inevitable Wright and Ayers attacks, and the potential Larry Sinclair swift-boating (assuming the Republican 427 groups have the gall to run with something so absurd) is to hit McCain on offshore drilling. I don't think McCain's position, which is that the federal ban should be lifted, is remotely inappropriate; however, if Obama portrays McCain as wanting to stick a bunch of big, stinky, ugly, disaster-waiting-to-happen oil rigs off the Gulf Coast, the Florida Keys, the Carolinas, California, Oregon, and Alaska (Exxon Valdez, anyone?) then he could push Florida and North Carolina into his camp...and it'd take a major Midwestern coup for McCain to win with those states in Obama's column.
Obama is a comically imperfect candidate, and up against a younger, more charismatic candidate unweighted down by one of the least popular incumbents in American history, he'd probably get blown out of the water. But the thing about McCain is, for every nasty jab (whether accurate or smearing) his campaign throws at Obama, the Obama camp can respond with five more toward him.
If the Democrats manage to fumble this election, it will be the feat of the century.
That sounds like a bit too much "hope". The main distinction between this election and 2004/1988, is that the latter two were about issues. Crime in 1988 and Iraq/terrorism in 2004.
In 2008 the election is not about issues - YET - because the drawn out Democratic primaries were not a substantive policy debate. I would posit that most Americans (at least the low-info swing voters that decide elections) have a poor sense of conservative-vs-liberal, but usually know where they stand on the most important issues of a given election.
If 2008 is change vs. experience, Obama will probably still win. If you have noticed, McCain is not pushing that contrast. McCain is trying to emphasize his own "new politics" credentials, while framing the election as being about specific issues: namely, Iraq and it seems at this stage, energy policy. That is also why McCain wants 10 town halls (well that and McCain excels in that format).
Does anyone else think that if you were to create a number line with a left and right end point, then ironically you would have Jesus Christ on the very left with puritans & the catholic church on the very right?
Rasmus,
Ahhh, Ich verstehe. Sehr selbstsuechtig.
Nate has put all this effort into this website for extremely little personal benefit, and you want to make fun of a couple of data entry errors?
If you want to be a community member, then if you find omissions of errors -- as we all have from time to time -- then you would try to be helpful.
Zach,
You have been watching the West Wing a bit too much. The thing is that even among Democrats there are about as many voters that consider themselves moderates, as consider themselves liberals.
In 2004 21% of the electorate considered itself liberal, while 45% said moderate (Conservatives were 34%) - and a majority of moderates voted for Kerry.
The Dems learned the wrong lesson from 2004, which, should have been considered a success given the circumstances. Ray Fair predicts elections based on economic data, his model predicted a Bush romp. Bush had enjoyed, not long before the election, incredible approval numbers. That Kerry ended up losing by 120,000 votes in Ohio is a testament to the success of the single strategy that has worked for the Democrats since 1968: tacking to the center.
As far as the liberal label goes - I wish Obama (or anyone) would use this quote from JFK:
"If by 'Liberal' they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people -- their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties -- someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a 'Liberal', then I'm proud to say I'm a Liberal"
"Juris
Rasmus,
Ahhh, Ich verstehe. Sehr selbstsuechtig.
Nate has put all this effort into this website for extremely little personal benefit, and you want to make fun of a couple of data entry errors?
If you want to be a community member, then if you find omissions of errors -- as we all have from time to time -- then you would try to be helpful."
Sehr witzig.
Ich würde sagen, ich habe etwa 300-400 Stunden damit verbracht, die Methoden dieser Seite nachzubauen, und bin auch sehr weit gekommen- um genau zu sein ,war ich bis auf die regressions fertig, als die Seite vor ein, zwei Wochen umgebaut wurde.
Ich wollte die Änderungen nicht mitmachen, weil sie mir nicht gefielen, und habe Nate um die regression gebeten.
Klar hat er da lange dran gearbeitet, und ich hätte es vollkommen verstanden, wenn er sie mir nicht gegeben hätte- aber wenigstens zurückschreiben hätte er jemandem können, der hier soviel Arbeit reingesteckt hat wie ich.
Dann soll er bitte seine Fehler auch selber suchen.
It's a minor point, Nate, but I really don't think that Gary Hart was running to Dukakis' left in 1988.
I was a staffer on that Dukakis campaign during the primary season. Certainly Jackson was to our left (and Gore was to our right). But Hart was running as what used to be called a "neoliberal" in the U.S. in the 1980s and was kind of a precursor to the DLC's "New Democrat"/"Third Way" positions of the early 1990s.
Hart reentered the race late after dropping out due to the Donna Rice scandal, and his campaign was never really a factor, so I'd also say that it matters very little whether he was on the left or the right.
By the time the field was winnowed down, the last three candidates standing were Jackson (left), Dukakis (center), and Gore (right).
Maybe you mentioned this and I missed it but Zogby says he has polling showing a 20 percent break for Obama among conservatives.
source
@ mark,
although, on the surface, ron paul may seem quite different than bush, etc, the fact is his policy is to just shut down government all together, resulting in corporate tyranny. with nobody to stop them, you get burma. its not a pleasant sight.
so they are both conservatives, in that bush conserves power for himself and his cronies, while paul conserves power for whoever made it to the top, and he does nothing to stop them. same thing, in the end.
liberals like myself love to see markets refreshed. dinosaurs vanquished, new ideas given a chance. new level playing fields that can make a whole new generation of millionaires and billionaires. just don't hog the till, and let others have a chance to succeed too.
i think you mean that mccain is comically imperfect. yes i'm sure you mean that.
@hosetohoosier, that bush won by anything in Ohio, is testament to the fact that they disqualified over 300,000 legitimate black voters, and prevented hundreds of thousands more from voting because they wouldn't put more than one voting machine in precincts with 3000 voters, and people waited 14 hours in the rain, while many others left. as a matter of a fact, if you like statistics, take a look at http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/2004votefraud.html the fact is bush never won any presidential election, but he did cheat very professionally.
our problem as democrats is that we didn't win by 30+ points, so we could out power the cheating. hopefully we won't have a Zimbabwe here in the usa this year.
personally i think the cronies are so stuffed with the trillions they've stolen, that they just don't have the energy to suck more blood just now. for now, its time for them to digest, they'll come to feed after the democrats have been in charge long enough to fatten up the economy nicely.
All McCain really needs to do is show Obama's dishonesty on many of the issues. NAFTA mistake/Nafta good, public financing good/public financing bad, etc. He HAS flipped on so many things. Use his own words against him. Oh, and also take away his telepromter!
Rasmus. I don't see what you think is funny; but as I said, I see what you're up to now.
Yes you took it as a personal task for a couple of months to replicate or mirror Nate's analysis and forecasts bit by bit. I'm sure it was a good learning experience for you. And as you note, you gave many hours to this. But I that was apparently just for your own benefit, as a learning exercise.
The model is obviously more complicated now, with even more steps and procedures (and software) than before. It's a good challenge for you to replicate it, but it's not Nate's obligation to help beyond what he has already stated in his articles. Perhaps he will do so in the future. (Of course, we are waiting for an update of his FAQ.)
But your message saying you had found a data entry error as the "bait" in exchange for more personal attention from Nate is, as I said, selfish and not community-oriented.
I hope you will change your attitude about this. But I accept also that you may not. You live in a free country, and you are free to do what you want with your time.
I did not exspect Nate to GIVE me the regressions, and I would not have been angry and bitter if he had refused to give them. But I exspected that he would take 5 minutes to answer my mail and explain that he does not want to hand the regressions out- because he had much work with them, because he does not want other people to see them, just because HE wrote them.
That would have been fine with me.
But he did not answer, and so I don´t see why I should be more kind to Nate. I found some errors.
But why should I make Nates work easier if he ignores mine?
Maybe, I am bitter, or cynical, but that´s my point.
"The model is obviously more complicated now, with even more steps and procedures (and software) than before."
It´s not that I could not replicate his new model. It would be much work again, but neither his old nor his new model are so complicated to rebuild as you think. It´s just much typing work.
But I don´t like his new model.
It´s too complicated- not to rebuild, but his ways to get his numbers are so over-sophisticated that they are likely to be escapist and do not meet the real numbers anymore. And he adjusts independent data with his own data, to get another part of his own data bunch.
So I have to develop my own model, what I do right now, and the regressions would have been helpful for that.
And I felt so familiar with the site where I spent hours and hours of my time every day, the last three months, that I simply asked Nate for the regression sheets and explained my situation- and did not get an answer.
That´s it, basically.
"
But your message saying you had found a data entry error as the "bait" in exchange for more personal attention from Nate is, as I said, selfish and not community-oriented."
I don´t personal attention from Nate anymore, and I don´t need it.
If I wanted anything from him, I´d asked nicely and not throw any "baits".
I just informed him that he has some errors at his site- and yes, I had fun doing that, and no, I was not up for giving him more hints. I have to check hundreds of polls to model national movement and state movement and so on, why should he have less work, why should I make his work easier?
"But I accept also that you may not. You live in a free country, and you are free to do what you want with your time."
Thank you, I really appreciate that. And I don´t mean that ironically, I really do.
Since the polling leader at this point usually loses, there shouldn't be considered to be a very large correlation between current strength and eventual results.
A 75% win percentage should at this point be impossible.
Hosertohoosier,
I see your point, and I understand the importance of playing the centrist. But what I'm trying to say is, why is it that in this country Liberal is a bad word and Conservative isn't? I'm saying the Dems have a marketing problem. For example since 2000 (and presumably earlier, but I couldn't find a source), a majority of Americans thought it was the responsibility of the government to make sure all Americans have health care (Gallup poll). This is a liberal issue, and even if people who support it describe themselves as moderate, they still are supporting this liberal idea. So the trick is associating the word liberal with being centrist, while still working to achieve left-leaning goals. So when a Republican says "don't vote for this person, they're a liberal," I think that candidate should say "Yes, I am a Liberal. I'm a Liberal because I support ideas like health care, like ending the Iraq war, like promoting clean energy. These are all Liberal ideas and always have been and we should embrace them." This is what the Republicans have done so well for a long time now. Of course, you may be right in that the word Liberal has sustained so much damage that it can't be easily reclaimed. Hopefully, it will be reclaimed after a successful, eight-year Obama administration. Or maybe a new strategy should be to make Conservative as big of a dirty word - something that again, after 8 years of failure with Bush, might be easier provided a successful Obama administration. And no, I've never seen West Wing :)
The comparison to Kerry and Dukakis is interesting. If indeed, you are right that the basic Republican strategy in both 1988 and 2004 was the same, what's remarkable is how much better it worked in 1988 than in 2004. Part of this is probably the circumstances, but part of it might just be that this "demonize the liberals" strategy is losing effectiveness. In spite of it, Kerry nearly beat an incumbent president, whereas G.H.W. Bush mopped the floor with Dukakis.
Juris/Rasmus:
I'm amused, and even a bit intrigued, by the 'debate' you've been conducting on this thread.
As someone who has spent a lifetime hanging out with people who love number crunching (and who love politics) I have observed that -- if you've got talent and determination in this area -- you can take one of two routes: the competitive or the cooperative. I've also observed that the competitive route is nearly irresistible. You're practically a mathematical saint if you give generously of your own efforts (or give generously of your praise).
I expect that Nate will show us enough to allow us to marvel at his good work, but not enough to give us a chance to show him up. It's his house, we're the guests. I just checked, though, and noticed that the domain name twoseventy.com is available for sale. If you buy it, Rasmus, I promise to visit (but don't expect me to torment you by looking for flaws in your methodology).
My only gripe with Nate is that he's taken away a degree of precision in the Win % line.
NYSmike,
Do you really think McCain is in a position to attack Obama for being a flip-flopper?
- McCain used to be against off-shore drilling; now he's for it.
- He used to think it was wrong to detain prisoners at Guantanamo indefinitely; now he refers to the recent Supreme Court ruling as "one of the worst decisions in the history of this country."
- He originally opposed Bush's tax cuts; now he says he supports them.
- In 2005, he thought keeping a long-term military presence in Iraq a la Korea was a bad idea; he now thinks it's a good idea.
- McCain on Iraq in Jan. 2003: "We will win this conflict. We will win it easily." McCain in Jan. 2007: "When I voted to support this war, I knew it was probably going to be long and hard and tough, and those that voted for it and thought that somehow it was going to be some kind of an easy task, then I'm sorry they were mistaken."
- He used to favor changing his party's platform on abortion to allow for it in cases of rape or incest; now he doesn't.
- He used to think evangelists like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell were "agents of intolerance;" when it came time to court his right-wing base, he sought their endorsements.
- He said that soliciting John Hagee's endorsement was a mistake but also that he was glad to have it, both in the very same interview .
- He used to oppose overturning Roe v. Wade; now he's for it.
- etc.
I think McCain's central problem is that he has the R after his name when the pendulum really is swinging away from Republican brand conservatism, whatever you define that as. People want to talk about this or that election, but the problem centrally with talking bout 1988 as if it bares a relationship to 2008 or even 2004 is that the last 4 years have been the nail in the coffine of the GOP brand that they have traded off since Reagan entered office in 1980s. Now that this brand is dead, just like any product, you may still be able to sell it but you have lost all your good will value. I think too many conservatives think you still have that brand value when you simply don't. I had a conservative professor who used to say to me back in the early 1990s when I would whine as liberal about how powerful the right was becoming- he said "the pendulum always swings in American politics." That's all that's happening now. So, when people talk about the weakness of an Obama candidacy all I have to say to that is he's no weaker than a George Bush candidacy in 2000 when you had a guy who couldn't run a baseball team win against a guy with 8 years of national and international exeprience. Why? Because there was still a brand to build on so it didn't matter. Now there's not. So the "c' word is going to the crapper. This year will confirm that reality.
PS
I look forward in about a decade to the term 'Obama revolution" and the right trying to figure out how to triangulate to the left of center.
To expand on the anonymous reply to NYSmike, here's a PARTIAL list of issues on which McC has reversed himself, sometimes more than once:
The offshore drilling moratorium; a windfall tax on oil company profits; warrantless wiretapping; privatizing Social Security (really a change of rhetoric, not position; he still supports it, but no longer says he does); abortion rights in cases of rape and incest; the estate tax; indefinite detention of terrorist suspects; storing spent nuclear fuel at Yucca Mountain in Nevada; normalization of relations with Cuba; U.S. diplomacy with Hamas; U.S. diplomacy with Syria; his own lobbying reform legislation from 1997; his own immigration reform legislation; his own plan for addressing the mortgage crisis; the Lieberman/Warner global warming legislation; raising cigarette taxes; balancing the federal budget by the end of his first term; waterboarding; the Law of the Sea convention; requiring lobbying coalitions to reveal their financial donors; gay marriage; the Martin Luther King, Jr. holiday; ethanol; the Bush tax cuts; and repeal of Roe v. Wade.
On top of all that, he's said he would appoint judges in the Roberts/Alito mold, but voted for Ginsburg and Breyer, who were clearly nothing of the sort.
People are mentioning flip flops and it's important to remember two things about using flip flops as a gotcha tactic.
First for McBush to call out Obama for being a flip flopper he has to be pure on that issue and he has many more flip flops than Obama. If anything in 2004 Bush did not flip flop on any major issue. McBush made it even harder for himself when the same week his campaign was trying to call Obama a flip flopper he flip flopped on offshore drilling.
Second once you flip flop on an issue you have to give a good reason and it cannot be too big an issue. Kerry was killed by his flip flop on the Iraq bill because he never explained it well. The same way Hillary was killed on her Iraq vote flip flop because she tried to say it was a vote for diplomacy. McBush and Obama have both been good at explaining their flip flops clearly and concisely because people don't really care that much if a candidate does change their positions they care that they are trying to say they did not change their positions even though they did.
Ray Fair predicts elections based on economic data, his model predicted a Bush romp. Bush had enjoyed, not long before the election, incredible approval numbers. That Kerry ended up losing by 120,000 votes in Ohio is a testament to the success of the single strategy that has worked for the Democrats since 1968: tacking to the center.
—hosertohoosier
I made three points at the APSA panel. (1) Ray Fair's model has very little economics in it. He generates a 55.57 % Bush share of the 2-party vote simply on the basis of an incumbent Republican running for reelection after his party has been in office only one consecutive term. His three economic variables produce less than 2 points additional vote for Bush. And the Iraq war apparently doesn't qualify for his war dummy variable. I pleaded for truth in advertising. Very little economics. Nothing relevant to the context of this election. Remarkably unhelpful for understanding presidential elections. (2) I noted that none of the forecasting models dealt directly with the 800 pound gorilla of this election: the war in Iraq. Some capture it a bit indirectly, through presidential approval or trial heats. But the effect of the models is to turn attention away from the most significant factor in the election. (Without a war in Iraq, Bush would be cruising to an easy reelection.) (3) The Bush campaign doesn't believe the forecasts. They understand that Iraq and the economy are working against them. That is why they are moving aggressively to raise the salience of terrorism and to try to structure the election as a referendum on the challenger, not the incumbent."
—Thomas E. Mann, Averell Harriman Chair and Senior Fellow at The Brookings Institution, from an e-mail reply to an inquiry from pollyvote.com, 9/10/04
I kept that to use whenever Ray Fair and his oft-cited, in 2004 anyway, "prediction" reared its extremely-ugly head. In 2004, 8 days out I had every state called correctly except Ohio, Wisconsin, Iowa and New Mexico, which I listed as too-close-to-call. That's when I stopped, but not before telling a Bush partisan who claimed Bush had Ohio locked up that, in that case, he had nothing to worry about.
Pollyvote.com, by the way, is currently forecasting the Republican share of the two-party vote as 47.7%.
This election will be a referendum on Obama to the extent that the majority of voters will have to decide if he's up to the job. That's what he's working on now. Of course, he's also working on getting McCain to do something that'll convince voters that he, McCain, is not.
kquark, penalcolony, et al.
What's significant about McCain's flips isn't so much that he changed his mind (we know how dreadful it is to have a president who won't change his mind in response to new information). What's significant is the fact that virtually all of his changes have been away from the stance of the 'maverick reformer' and toward that of the 'standard conservative'.
Obama shouldn't say, "you've changed your mind tsk tsk"; he should say "look how conservative you've become over the past four years". Is this the direction we want to go? It's a good question for Obama to ask the American voter.
Anonymous at 6:48pm (or anyone, really): Where has McCain said he now is for Roe v. Wade? Or, where has he changed his position of wanting to overturn Roe?
McCain has been very consistent in his view that women should not have control of their bodies once they are pregnant. If you know differently, please post a link. Thanks.
The real difference between 1988 and 2008 is that in the last 20 years conservative ideas have utterly failed, the American dream has died for millions.
Back in 1988, the crime issue was HUGE. Now it's non-existent. That was a racist attack on black people (who do you think whites associated with the word "criminal?")
In 1988 the economy and jobs were important, but today we've had two decades worth of decline in the manufacturing sector and EVERYBODY in the middle class feels insecure about their economic future.
The rich have gotten vastly richer, but the middle has lost ground.
Health care costs have skyrocketed, the dollar has plummeted and wages have stagnated.
Then you top this list with the war in Iraq that is never-ending, a deficit that is mushrooming out of control and the threat of terrorism.
Whisper campaigns about "flag-pins" and "angry blacks" just don't have the same resonance they had in 1988 because people are desperate for change.
A hungry man is not easily distracted from his growling belly by waving a flag in his face. People are fed up.
Conservatism, not Bush. has failed utterly to deliver for the American people on a massive scale.
We've tried trickle-down economics and tax cuts for the rich and foreign wars that were supposed to be as easy as an arcade game to make us feel good and macho. "USA! USA! USA!"
It's all swill and people in ever increasing numbers are rejecting it. It's time for the grown-ups to govern again and that means Obama will win, paradoxically because he's perceived as smart -- someone with ideas and someone who will tackle problems with bold new solutions.
In 1988's climate, a candidate like Obama would NEVER have gotten off the ground. He'd have been attack as "elitist" "angry-black" all the negative stereotypes that have the pundits terrified to this day.
But, he's winning because people have had enough. They're willing to take a chance on something new because the same old crap hasn't worked!
The more McCain attacks Obama as "Librul! Librul! Librul!" the more it undermines his "change you deserve" message. You can't be for and against change.
If this election is between change and change, then McCain loses in a landslide, because he's just not a credible agent of change. He's Mr. Status Quo. He's safe, dependable, you know what you're going to get.
In 1988 McCain would be winning by 15 points. In today's climate he hasn't got a chance.
Nate: Isn't it possible that the reason for the turnaround was not liberal framing but that one defining deal-breaker? Swiftboating against Kerry wasn't just that he was liberal - it was that he tossed his medals away - a truly unpatriotic act. Willie Horton wasn't about liberal/conservative - it was about an unreasonable liberal standard. And - it was a late-breaking storyline, that there was little time to recover from (not to mention that Dukkakis and Kerry never seemed to really be ready to respond to this kind of thing). The threat to June polls is an October scandal.
Also - "Conservative" consists of concerns for social stuff like gay marriage, abortion, teen pregnancy, rising divorce rates, honesty and dignity in government, self-reliance. They aren't negated by health care, rejection of the Iraq war, or concern for the environment. I consider myself "conservative" in a lot of respects. Maybe we need new terms?
The brainwashing of children in elementary school during black history month has finally paid off for Obama. People are voting for Obama to show how "open minded" they are about race. Black bigots, of course, are overwhelmingly voting for him because they share the same skin color. Of course, in our PC society, no one will ever accuse an Afican American of being a racist. Whites want to show how open minded they are to vote for a black.
Of course, these same brainwashed people do not even think about Native Americans, the most crapped on minority. That is because Native Americans have no federally mandated history month. Isn't it about time?
Swiftboating against Kerry wasn't just that he was liberal - it was that he tossed his medals away - a truly unpatriotic act.
Swiftboating wasn't about is throwing medals away, it was about portraying Kerry as having lied about his military service, writing his own purple heart commendations, and a series of other lies about him. As for "a truly unpatriotic act" -- that characterization strikes me as indicative of some sort of mental illness. It's a high form of patriotism to stand for the principles upon which this country was founded, rather than to be bought off with trinkets awarded for war crimes. For truly unpatriotic acts, consider the Bush administration's disabling of the Constitution.
Willie Horton wasn't about liberal/conservative - it was about an unreasonable liberal standard.
Willie Horton was about race-baiting, pure and simple. Funny that you don't know that even after Lee Atwater admitted it. Oh, but you're a "conservative" -- for which we don't need new terms when old ones like "ignoramus", "dishonest", and "hypocrite" serve fine.
"Conservative" consists of concerns for social stuff like gay marriage
A truly unpatriotic act, I suppose. We don't need new terms for "conservative" when old ones like "bigot" and "homophobe" serve well.
abortion, teen pregnancy, rising divorce rates
Pro-choice policies that respect women and promote education and health care result in less teen pregnancy and fewer forced marriages. We don't need new labels for "conservative" when old ones like "misogynist" serve well.
honesty and dignity in government
We don't need news words for "conservative" when old ones like "corrupt" serve well.
self-reliance
No one sucks off the public teat more than so-called "conservatives". See David Johnston's "Free Lunch: How the Wealthiest Americans Enrich Themselves at Government Expense (and Stick You with the Bill)".
Of course, in our PC society, no one will ever accuse an Afican American of being a racist.
That's a funny claim when racist scum like you do so frequently and loudly.
Anonymous @ 2008-06-22 23:57
Assuming you're just bitter, instead of a bitter troll... one of the nicest moments on the campaign was when Obama was adopted into the Crow nation, and given the name Barack Black Eagle. He's also promised a Native American in a high-ranking position in his administration - and has active outreach and advisors from amongst the various Native American communities as part of his campaign. He calls them "First Americans." Here's the site: http://tribes.barackobama.com/page/content/firstamshome
Ouch, jqb.
BTW, I'm African American, voted for Obama in the primaries, plan to do so in the general, and just responded to the Anon who threw out the race-baiting comments earlier.
Moreover - never once voted for George W, nor his father. Maybe don't be so quick to judge people.
YES, I'm WELL aware that Willie Horton was a race-baiting move. But there is such a thing as text and subtext - and the Willie Horton add was effective because it played on both levels - making even those who wouldn't bite the race-bait turn against Dukkakis.
Anonymous at 6:48pm (or anyone, really): Where has McCain said he now is for Roe v. Wade? Or, where has he changed his position of wanting to overturn Roe?
Has it ever occurred to you that taking a stand that something is a fact without spending even 30 seconds (that's about what it took me to find the quotation below) to investigate it to see if you might be mistaken is a path to filling your head with false beliefs, making yourself effectively stupid?
http://www.salon.com/opinion/conason/2008/04/11/mccain_abortion/
Schecter quotes an August 1999 speech that McCain delivered to the Commonwealth Club in San Francisco:
"I'd love to see a point where [Roe v. Wade] is irrelevant, and could be repealed because abortion is no longer necessary. But certainly in the short term, or even the long term, I would not support repeal of Roe v. Wade, which would then force x number of women to [undergo] illegal and dangerous operations."
Maybe don't be so quick to judge people.
I judge, and respond to, what people write.
YES, I'm WELL aware that Willie Horton was a race-baiting move.
There was no hint of that in what you wrote and I responded to -- rather, there was an absurd mischaracterization of it.
Sorry, understood something wrong.
Paul,
the guys at twoseventy do not take offers below $800 for their domain, what probably means they want $2500 or more. I think if any, I´d take an ordinary blogspot-address.
I´m looking forward to you searching for flaws in the methodology as soon I got this ready- if you find some reasonable ones, that is not bad, because I could improve it by that.
Just wait a month or so, maybe less...
Rasmus, is there a reason that you claim FiveThirtyEight.com as your webpage on your blogger profile page?
I don't think "Liberal" sounds like such a bad word to many American votes after 8 years of George W. Bush's "conservative" politics.
It definitely looks to me like Rasmus was mainly interested from the beginning in stealing Nate's intellectual property.
In the beginning it seemed strange that he wanted to copy everything of Nate's model in exact detail, but I thought he was using this just as a learning exercise.
Now it appears he wanted every detail so he could act like one of those foreign companies or espionage agencies that "reverse engineers" a competitor's design.
At this time his motives seem at best curious, and at worst extremely dishonest.
"Rasmus, is there a reason that you claim FiveThirtyEight.com as your webpage on your blogger profile page?"
Maybe I should change that.
It´s not MY website, it´s my favourite website.
I don´t have a website yet.
And when I filled in the options, I just saw the german version, where it was translated as "Startseite", which is the first page I see when I open my browser- and that´s FIveTHirtyEight.
This election is over. Let's just drink beer for the next few months, eh?
see if you can find the "willy horton" ad on youtube. maybe its on there.
a great retort to it would have been for the camera rapidly to pan to the right, revealing another line of very wealthy white men with huge money bags going through their own revolving door. white reagan administration officials, going through a revolving door to be lobbyists or corporate ceos, unfairly using their advantage to steal billions from america.
The RNC and a number of soon-to-be-announced new Republican 527s have video databases drawn from all the 20-nothings covering Obama at every stage of the campaign. Obama, in rejecting McCain's proposal to hold town hall debates, has given up the best opportunity to vigorously assert the Center and appeal to moderates. He will be running against himself, as Republicans present to America video after video of him making vast (even absurd) claims to far Left policies and values as his own.
Alex at 8:41PM said, Where has McCain said he now is for Roe v. Wade? Or, where has he changed his position of wanting to overturn Roe?
McCain has been very consistent in his view that women should not have control of their bodies once they are pregnant. If you know differently, please post a link. Thanks.
Back during his first run for Pres in 2000, he was opposed to overturning Roe v. Wade. jqb gave you one quote, here's another:
"If we repeal Roe v. Wade tomorrow, thousands of young American women will be performing illegal and dangerous operations. I want us to be a party of inclusion. I think we can all be members of the Republican party whether we are pro-choice or pro-life..."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpGUiEWZDUI
Fast-forward to 2007: "I do not support Roe versus Wade. It should be overturned."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17222147/
Just another flip flop from the Straight Talk Express.
@anonymous@11:47am
and
@Alex@8:41pm,
That "pro-choice" youtube doesn't pan out.
The full quote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Trbaufpok8
shows that McCain has always been against Roe v. Wade.
He WAS against an "reckless and irresponsible" (to barrow his phrase) overturning, but he said it should eventually be overturned. So, that is a flip flop, but his ultimate stance is the same.
However, it does go to prove Alex's point that "McCain has been very consistent in his view that women should not have control of their bodies".
In this case, flip flopping would be good (i.e. he should decide that Roe v. Wade stands).
(For the record: I feel that Roe v. Wade prevents the deadly consequences of abortion, so it should stand. Women will get abortions whether it is illegal or not; they will just be more likely to die if it is illegal. That makes it "pro-life" in the end.)
This is obviously off topic, but since it's already been brought up, I just had to share one of the best defenses of the pro-choice stance I've ever read. Note that it follows nothing but the logical consequences of outlawing abortion:
"- If a fetus is a person, then any miscarriage must logically trigger a criminal investigation. Was the woman negligent? If so, it’s textbook ‘criminally negligent homicide.’
- A woman who contributed to a miscarriage by smoking, or drinking, or being stressed out, would be a felon. She would have to go to prison.
- Of course, to know whenever a miscarriage happens would require tremendous surveillance. (Many miscarriages happen very early, sometimes before the woman even knows she’s pregnant.)
- Women would figure this out, and not report pregnancies. This would result in foregone prenatal care, with predictable medical consequences.
- To create an exception for miscarriages would be to jump-start DIY abortions. This is not a flippant point. Women would show up to their doctors after the fact, claiming miscarriages. The smarter pro-lifers know this, and would move to close the miscarriage loophole.
- Obviously, if abortion is murder, it’s first-degree murder. After all, it’s premeditated. In most states, the penalty for first-degree murder is death. We would have to execute millions of women.
- The only way around that argument is to say that abortion is somehow less than murder. But once you concede that, the entire ‘pro-life’ argument falls to pieces.
If you know anybody who has miscarried (I do), you know just how invasive, hurtful, and barbaric a criminal investigation would be at that moment. But, by the logic of the pro-life position, there is no way around it. The only way around it would be to concede that the embryo isn’t a full rights-bearing person, at which point, the pro-life argument is kaput."
Abortion is not murder.
G'night.
"The only way around that argument is to say that abortion is somehow less than murder. But once you concede that, the entire ‘pro-life’ argument falls to pieces."
Well, abortion has never been treated the same as murder. Few pro-lifers have ever followed their position to its logical conclusion.
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