6.26.2008

Which Candidate has a Base Problem?

That title is not meant to be read rhetorically or sarcastically. But the correct answer is "both of them". The thing, however, is that they are somewhat opposite problems.

The below is data compiled from Rasmussen Reports, consisting of over 7,000 likely voter interviews conducted within the past week. What I'm looking at is solely perceptions of the candidate among voters within his own party.



The topline numbers are not very different from one another. Obama's favorables among Democrats are 82:17, and McCain's among Republicans are 84:15. However, that conceals a lot of information about the strength of those perceptions.

A greater number of Democrats' -- about 8 percent -- have a very unfavorable view of Obama. These 8 percent are your PUMAs -- people that will probably not vote for Obama under any circumstances. Only 4 percent of Republicans feel that way about John McCain.

Obama would be thrilled, of course, if he could actually get his defection rate down to 8 percent: John Kerry lost 11 percent of Democrats to George W. Bush; Al Gore lost 11 percent to Bush and 2 to Nader; Bill Clinton lost 10 percent to Bob Dole and 5 percent to Ross Perot. In reality, Obama will probably lose almost all of the "very unfavorables" and perhaps half of the "somewhat unfavorables", which would produce a defection rate of 12-13 percent (not all of those necessarily to McCain). McCain's defection rate, by that calculus, would be 9-10 percent (not all of those necessarily to Obama).

But look, by contrast, at the enthusiasm gap between the two candidates. 56 percent of Democrats have a very favorable view of Barack Obama, while just 34 percent of Republicans have a very favorable view of John McCain. The thing that's a little bit scary for McCain is that this is after a likely voter screen has been applied, and so even after you get done filtering out those Republicans around the margins who weren't planning to vote in the first place, many of the remaining ones are still doing so for McCain somewhat grudgingly.

The good news for McCain is that if the election is close, the vast majority of these people should still wind up voting for him. That's what turnout operations are all about, and the GOP generally runs a pretty good one. Besides, 52 percent of Republicans have a very unfavorable view of Obama, as compared to 33 percent of Democrats who feel that way about McCain.

But if the election doesn't look like it's going to be close, there could be a snowball effect in which Republican turnout is quite low. If that is the case, the map could turn out to be very, very blue, and Republicans might lose a couple more Senate seats than are generally thought to be in play -- somewhere like Idaho, for instance, could be interesting -- and perhaps an extra dozen or half-dozen House seats on top of that.

53 comments

Patrick Noonan said...

Interesting data, even if it just helps quantify and validate what has already been a widely-held (and often-repeated) point of view among the public and the pundits.

It does beg the question, however, of the level of enthusiasm among Independents, the missing piece of the pie. What data are there to show not just likely leanings but level of support among that key group?

Anonymous said...

I think implying that 8% of Democrats are "PUMAs" is a bad idea - those 8% are probably mostly just regular old southern racists who wouldn't have supported Hillary either. If 8% of Ds were actually Clinton deadenders that would be a huge deal.

Anonymous said...

Obama is going to win big

many republican are angry & will not turn out for Mccain

Anonymous said...

any new polls coming out today ?

Chris said...

This (unlike the comments @ 8:41 & 8:43, which have no evidence for them) is a good post. Balanced, and you are actually pointing out both candidates' strengths and weaknesses.

The analysis also suggests an Obama-Clinton ticket wins. It would be interesting to know if the 17% of Dems with unfavorable views are former Clinton supporters (don't know if it is in the poll). With her on the ticket, you probably get only 3-4% of Dems not supporting Obama.

On the other hand, while I think the dislike of Hillary Clinton on the right waned once she morphed into a more populist style on the trail (e.g., Pat Buchanan), the enthusiasm may pick up on the GOP side. But it might anyway, once Obama is portrayed as a left winger who will do all sorts of who knows what the Republicans will claim.

But I'd like more than %s within party. Since Dems have more #s this year, just getting Dems solidified wins the election--even if Republicans are also solidified because their party i.d. numbers are so low.

lilnev said...

Can you show the converse data, R's opinions of Obama and D's of McCain? You cited the "very unfavorable" number, but I'd like to see the full breakdown. And, for independents, too, please.

Juris said...

I agree that not all of the 8% are likely to be PUMAs (or that it's probably misleading to characterize them as such -- keep in mind the race issue, for example).

Your analysis doesn't take into account the relative sizes of the "D" and "R" identifier pools, nor the preferences of those in the "I" category and their evaluations of the candidates. It could well be that Obama doesn't need to close the deal with as large a percentage of the D's as McCain needs to do with the R's.

Jay L said...

Nate, your back of the envelope estimate of a 12% to 13% defection rate ignores a key factor--differential rates of turnout among the four groups. Turnout among Democrats who have a strongly favorable view of Obama will almost assuredly be significantly higher than turnout among Democrats who have a somehwat unfavorable view, for example. When you factor in (a) differential turnout and (b) the impact of a unified convention in which Hillary lavishes praise on Obama in prime time, I think you have to conclude that a 10% or 11% defection rate is a lot more likely than 12% or 13%.

VitoF said...

"But if the election doesn't look like it's going to be close, there could be a snowball effect in which Republican turnout is quite low". -- Nate

Perhaps you just answered yesterday's post about why McCain is fighting back hard against bad polls. :)

p smith said...

New Quinnipiac poll has Obama up in Minnesota (54-37), up in Wisconsin (52-39), up in Michigan (48-42) and up in Colorado (49-44).

Given that the sample size for each is about 1,500, this is terrible data for McCain.

jay l said...

In my previous comment I should have clarified my comment on a unified convention with Hillary lavishing praise on Obama. Specifically, I think it will drive down Obama's unfavorables a bit. Bottom line, I would guess that slightly lower unfavorables by November and differential turnout will result in a defection rate of 10% or 11%.

Anonymous said...

PUMAs are "regular old southern racists".

Mark said...

this is terrible data for McCain

And it's great data for Nate. The 538 projections for CO and MI are each only 1/2 point different from the new Quinnipiac polls. The WI gap is a bit larger at 4.3 points, but only the 17 point Obama lead in MN was unexpected by the 538 model, which had Obama's lead there at 11.

Nice job, Nate.

Anonymous said...

What percentage of likely voters are registered for each party?

Can someone tell me why Obama has 52% very unfavorable on the g.o.p. side? That just seems like a massive number and I don't see what's provoking more than a "not my cup of tea" shrug in so many.

Spike said...

Sorry - can someone post the decoded acronym for PUMA? Hadn't seen it before.

Alex said...

Spike,

It's Party Unity My Ass, a group (I think?) founded by David Bower. Basically PUMAs are Hillary supporters who refuse to vote for Obama.

I would take the very-unfavorables from Obama and subtract out the very unfavorables for Kerry or Gore to get a better idea of how bad the problem is this year as compared to previous years. We know that a lot of people identify themselves as Democrats but do not vote for Democratic presidential candidates.

Juris said...

Anon: re party registration, a lot of states don't register voters by party (e.g., Michigan). So you can't use that indicator consistently.

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namelessfaceless said...

Off topic:

It looks like the Obama people agreed with the prior analysis that campaigning in Alaska would be a good idea:

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/06/obama_to_campaign_in_alaska.php

Anonymous said...

Re: Quinnipiac polls

Those who repeatedly claim that this site is fudging the numbers in Obama's favor should note that in all four states, Obama's lead in the new Quinnipac polls is bigger than in the 538 polling average after trend-adjustment.

This is yet another sign that the recent change in the model, to adjust older state poll results for recent trends in national and other polls, is really implemented in a rather conservative way. And that it definitely isn't biased towards Obama.

Anonymous said...

Two key states that don't have party registration: Michigan and Virginia. So polling in these 2 swing states might be harder than in others because it's impossible to know how much momentum the Democrats have there in new party backers.

Also, it's important to note that although Obama and McCain have similar support numbers in their own party now, Obama is likely to recapture much of that support as the campaign goes on whereas McCain has a more permanent "doghouse" status among many GOP voters stretching back for a decade or more. To many true conservatives, McCain stands for three things: Amnesty, Amnesty(!), and McCain-Feingold.

Alex said...

That SUSA +1 in MN is looking mighty strange right now. I thought SUSA let party ID float, so what's the methodological catch here?

Anonymous said...

how come you all say that the mn poll that susa did looks alittle wierd now? and you dont say the same thing about the ga, with obama behind 1? seem's like alittle double standard to me....i dont think either of them we're ture i think obama's up about 7 in mn, and mccain's up about 7 in ga. but also like so many say doesnt matter what they say now big thing's happen between now and nov, and Quinnipac has alway's polled more in favor of the dem's anyway's there's are alway's flawed i would defenetly take there's with a very small grain of salt.

Alex said...

The GA poll *is* weird. It's unlikely that Obama is down by only 1 point there. But that said, GA closing is the trend we expect right now. MN closing is strange.

The total projection tells you all you want to know. MN is projected +11, GA is projected -5. The MN poll is farther from our expectation than the GA one.

BP in MN said...

The Survey USA +1 in MN looked super goofy from the get-go, based on the internals which had all sorts of results that were basically nonsense. There were all sorts of reasons to doubt that poll.

The GA poll may have had the same kind of problems, but I know much less about it; GA had also been polled quite a bit less, so there was less reason to jump on it as showing something screwy.

Redshift said...

Chris @ 8:48:
The analysis also suggests an Obama-Clinton ticket wins.

Only if you assume the 8% are disaffected Clinton supporters, which was a part of the analysis that was a throwaway line and not supported by any particular evidence. As numerous posts here have illustrated, the idea that Democrats are divided and Obama is having trouble bringing in Clinton supporters is just the media lazily following their usual "Democrats in disarray" storyline, and contrary to the evidence.

Anonymous said...

""And it's great data for Nate. The 538 projections for CO and MI are each only 1/2 point different from the new Quinnipiac polls. The WI gap is a bit larger at 4.3 points, but only the 17 point Obama lead in MN was unexpected by the 538 model, which had Obama's lead there at 11.""

Plus, the error is actually an underestimation of Obama's performance, the opposite of what Nate is generally accused of.

Anonymous said...

""Can someone tell me why Obama has 52% very unfavorable on the g.o.p. side? That just seems like a massive number and I don't see what's provoking more than a "not my cup of tea" shrug in so many.""

The utter garbage that circulates in intra-GOP e-mails, presumably.

p smith said...

What is really needed right now are some SurveyUSA polls in PA, OH and FL. If they reinforce what Quinnipiac showed last week, I would expect to see the first signs of panic in the GOP camp. Indeed McCain's response today to the Supreme Court ruling in which he uses it to make a pathetic partisan attack on Obama (even though Obama has not responded to the ruling yet) suggests he is already getting a little desperate and unpresidential in his mutterings.

Obama is set for a couple of days of good coverage with the joint appearances with Hillary today and tomorrow. We may be 4 months out but this is a critical stage of the campaign. If Obama can establish a lead of more than 5 points across the respectable pollsters, it is going to be hard to overcome barring a Charlie Black wet dream involving a terrorist attack on US soil.

Tom said...

Anon @ 9:47: "Can someone tell me why Obama has 52% very unfavorable on the g.o.p. side? That just seems like a massive number and I don't see what's provoking more than a "not my cup of tea" shrug in so many."

The Republican media - Rush, Fox News, et al - are really, really good at hammering home a consistent set of "talking points" on issues to their base, and the message that they're hammering home on Obama is that he's "far left" with "socialist" ideas. A frequent cite is the National Journal ranking of Senators, where Obama was ranked the most liberal Senator in 2007 (more liberal than actual socialist Bernie Sanders, for example).

Fortunately for Obama, Republicans now make up only about 30% of the electorate, so the 50% of Republicans who appear to have largely bought into this only amounts to 15% of the total electorate.

Anonymous said...

yeah, but if you say the mn, poll is screwy why dont you say the same about the indiana one?. what's the difference? why dont we just say dont trust any susa poll then? i mean come on no one is ever satisfied.

Anonymous said...

depending on when exactly these polls were taken, you could be beginning to see in them the left's backlash against obama's repulsive change of heart regarding the FISA bill. what the right knows is that you have to keep the base no matter what, but what the left always does is throw it's base under the bus. i never supported hillary, and was excited about obama until FISA, now i am not sure i will bother to vote in november period--i am not alone. if i were to be polled today about obama, i would say "somewhat unfavorable" (however, i feel more than somewhat--the fourth amendment is not negotiable with me). i would say very unfavorable about mccain. i predict obama's in-party unfavorable ratings will increase in the next round of polls.

nieddu said...

Here guys a just released poll in NJ, this clrearly contradicts the recent Rasmussen poll, showing a very tight race for this senate seat.

Fairleigh Dickinson University/PublicMind
6/17-22/08; 589 RV, MoSE 4%

New Jersey
Sen: Lautenberg (D-i) 45, Zimmer (R) 28

Chris said...

Nate, any chance of a post about Obama's numbers before/after his recent FISA declaration? There are rumblings of Obama losing his shine here, and I'm wondering if you have seen any poll data that might relate to it.

homunq said...

anon :41...

While I may agree with you about FISA over on DKos, here at 538 I have to say that maybe 4% of democrats (that is, under 2% of voters) know and care about this issue, and that the average shift even among us is probably only 1 scale point, not 2 or 3 as yours. So 54/27/9/9 or something is about the worst case for Obama after this folds into the polls.

Higglytown said...

For those asking why Obama has a 52% unfavorable rating among Republicans, here is my reason: He took a stance in the Illinois legislature that was pro-Live Birth Abortion, and blocked the bill to disallow this practice from even being voted on in his committee. This practice is where a late term baby survives the abortion process and is alive at the time of birth. The law (now in place in Illinois after Obama left and relinquished his health and human services committee chairmanship) basically says hospitals must do what they can to keep these babies alive. The prior practice was to shelve these babies in a dark room and allow them to cry themselves to death after a 2 to 3 day period at times, it was grotesque and I could never vote for him for that reason.

such sweet thunder said...

Yeah, I wouldn't even put knowledge in the electorate at 4%. It's not a campaign issue because McCain would have to attack Obama from the left -- a non-starter obviously.

I wanted to respond to this comment from earlier upstream:

what the right knows is that you have to keep the base no matter what, but what the left always does is throw it's base under the bus.

The largest advantage of campaigning in Alaska is forcing McCain to flip on ANWR. As was detailed on HuffPost yesterday, the Republican Evangelical-base during this election cycle has added the environment to the traditional gays, and abortion platform, and is beginning to make head fakes towards poverty as well; perhaps in the next election cycle. This is why we see McCain campaigning on this issue so much -- a need to consolidate his questionable evangelical support.

goethean said...

Higglytown
For those asking why Obama has a 52% unfavorable rating among Republicans, here is my reason: He took a stance in the Illinois legislature that was pro-Live Birth Abortion, and blocked the bill to disallow this practice from even being voted on in his committee. This practice is where a late term baby survives the abortion process and is alive at the time of birth. The law (now in place in Illinois after Obama left and relinquished his health and human services committee chairmanship) basically says hospitals must do what they can to keep these babies alive. The prior practice was to shelve these babies in a dark room and allow them to cry themselves to death after a 2 to 3 day period at times, it was grotesque and I could never vote for him for that reason.


Maybe you should let doctors practice medicine without right-wing demagogues breathing down their throats.

Colin said...

Doesn't McCain have a list of states they think will be competitive on their website? i saw it circulated recently... the one that included MN and WA?

http://www.johnmccain.com/strategybriefing/

I guess you'd have to accept the McCain assumption that states like VA, NC, GA and IN are solidly red, but it would be an interesting trip through McCainworld...

Jason said...

Live birth abortion is done only in a situation where the mother's life is at risk or the baby will not survive without large amounts of intensive care, and will still not be functional even afterwards. And no, the baby isn't left to die on a shelf in a closet somewhere. These are difficult ethical issues that are, in the case of no legal restrictions, decided by the parents and the doctors involved. They consider the circumstances of each distinct case carefully before they go through with a live birth abortion. You are correct, though. Obama's blocking of that bill in Illinois is often cited by social conservatives as the reason that he is a terrible person and shouldn't be President. Funny how easy it is to judge parents trying to decide on their baby's life or death from that high horse of theirs.

Doctor said...

As a practicing physician, I must say that it is always amusing when the Christian Right wants to dictate how Medicine should be practiced.

It's of little wonder to me that I've never met a fellow doctor who is a member of the Christian Right. Why? Because if the Christian Right knew the things we know, and if they saw the things we see, they would realize how stupid those opinions are about our work.

One thing this country doesn't need is the Christian Right telling doctors how to be doctors, anymore than we need the American Medical Association telling preachers how to be preachers.

Go to medical school and residency if you can, ye Christian zealots... we'll see what opinions you have when you actually know something of what you're talking about.

Here's one more vote for Obama despite the fact that the Bush tax cuts make life even easier for people in the "doctor level" high income range.

Gilbert E. said...

I think one thing the Obama campaign needs to hammer home is that 90% of Americans will have lower taxes with Obama's tax plan than with McCain's tax plan. If you take away McCain's "lower taxes" BS then he's really got nothing left.

Laura in WA said...

I suspect Obama will win a larger percentage of his "unfavorables" than will McCain. Many of those "unfavorables" are likely former Hillary supporters who, while not as extreme as the PUMA's, are peeved that Hillary lost and haven't warmed to Obama yet, but who will probably end up voting for him anyway, particularly if the election looks like it will be close. (In other words, people who feel about Obama the way I'd be feeling about Hillary right now if she'd gotten the nomination.)

In McCain's case, he locked up the nomination without much controversy in early March, and there haven't been any recent events that might drive up his "unfavorables". So those who have an unfavorable opinion of him now are probably not all that likely to change their minds between now and November -- it's just a question of how many will "hold their nose and vote for him" anyway.

Sir John Mills said...

I remember four years ago when a lot of my Democratic friends were clamoring for a Kerry-McCain "unity" ticket at least in part because McCain was a "moderate." There is still that perception among some Democrats that John McCain is a moderate, which may help to explain why his unfavorables aren't as high among Democrats.

Right now, Obama is still to some extent running against the perception of McCain rather than the real McCain. But that is changing. We're seeing that when Democrats and Democratic leaners - especially women - are disabused of this notion, they reject McCain in droves.

Anonymous said...

I'm so glad you did this breakdown. It's something I've been watching over at pollingreport.com. When the favorable/unfavorable polls broke down how favorable/unfavorable the responder's opinion was, an entirely different picture emerged than the one we usually see on the MSM. Obama and McCain were both polling nationally as about even in favorable but when broken down, most of McCain's favorable response was in the somewhat favorable category vs. most of Obama's was of the extremely favorable category.

--GFORD

信次 said...

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平平 said...

^^ nice blog!! thanks a lot! ^^

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平平 said...

^^ nice blog!! ^@^

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