6.27.2008

Today's Polls, 6/27

We seem to have gotten past some point of no return where we have a half-dozen polls or so to look at almost every day:



A lot of these polls are good news/bad news for both candidates. In Rasmussen's poll of Mississippi, for instance, Barack Obama hasn't improved his numbers from the May edition of the poll, which had also showed him trailing by a 50-44 margin. On the other hand, that result had looked to me like an outlier before, and now can probably be taken more credibly. While Mississippi remains a longshot for Obama, keep an eye on Louisiana, which has similar demographics but much bluer party identification figures.

The two polls of Texas show the race tightening, but probably not enough to make the race interesting. There's a good rundown here of the pros and cons of Obama investing resources in Texas. The only thing I'd add is that there is far more room at the margins for the Democrats to make up ground with registration among Latino voters than among African-Americans. If Tejanos vote in anything resembling the same proportion that they constitute of Texas's citizenry, the state could be quite competitive.

But it's the SurveyUSA result in Ohio that I want to focus on. Obama leads by 2 here, but had been ahead by 9 in SurveyUSA's may poll of the state. That previous poll had shown a heavily Democratic sample -- 52 percent Democrat, 28 percent Republican, 18 percent independent -- and had triggered a lot of discussion about whether pollsters should be weighting their results by party ID. SurveyUSA does not do so -- although if it had applied the May distribution of party IDs to this poll, it would have shown Obama ahead by 10-11 points rather than by 2. Conversely, if SurveyUSA had applied the June party ID distribution to its May poll, that poll would have shown a dead heat rather than Obama ahead by 9.

I do not mean to be a fair-weather fan on the idea of weighting by party ID. As I implied the other day, I suspect that pollsters are facing something of a trade-off between volatility and potentially introducing bias. Weighting by party ID will almost certainly reduce noise, and perhaps make it easier to perceive trendlines -- but if the pollster's guesses about party ID are wrong, they may be reducing the turbulence but landing at the wrong airport. I'll say this: if a pollster doesn't know what it's doing, I think it should be letting the numbers speak for themselves. On the other hand, if the pollster has a robust and thoughtful method for weighting by party ID, it might be worth the trade-off. It is interesting that, taking two of our three highest-rated pollsters, Scott Rasmussen is a firm believer that you ought to weight by party ID, and Jay Leve at SurveyUSA is a firm believer that you ought not.

Finally, there have been some further refinements to the simulation model based on everyone's feedback, which I'll get around to explaining in a bit.

64 comments

Aaron said...

Just reposting from the last thread-

Look at the huge spike on the distribution chart at about 295. I know I've seen them before, and sometimes at curious places, but I don't think I've seen one this big. Just another request to have some sample maps for those highly probable (if even 1 or 2% likely) outcomes.

Also, with the time dependence now kicking in, will we start seeing more spikes? You would think that with the passage of time, the swing states would be whittled down to two or three, causing the bell curve to look more like a castle roof. The flip side of course is that if Obama actually makes good on his effort to flip the "big sky" states and the number of swing states increases.

Nate said...

The big spike is at 293. That's Obama winning

Kerry's 252
+ Iowa (7) = 259
+ Colorado (9) = 268
+ New Mexico (5) = 273
+ Ohio (20) = 293

Right now, there's kind of a big gap between Colorado, which is the worst of the states listed above and where we have Obama at 62%, and then a whole big chunk of states in the 40s; Nevada at 44%, Virginia at 44%, Indiana at 43%, Missouri and Florida each at 36%. So there's a pretty big area where Obama wins exactly those 293 EV's and those only -- then he sort of gets over the hump and a whole bunch more states become available to him.

Paul Bradford said...

Finally, there have been some further refinements to the simulation model based on everyone's feedback, which I'll get around to explaining in a bit.

I'm hoping part of the refinement is to return another decimal of precision to the state-by-state Win % data. It was great when you had it and I miss it.

Mark said...

McCain is definitely going to draw less of the white vote in Texas than Bush did, and Obama is definitely going to draw more of the minority vote in Texas than Kerry did.

If the Obama people or his grass-roots activists run a breakneck party registration campaign in the South (including TX) this summer and fall, there could be a serious electoral upset. I'm just not sure the Obama team is ambitious enough to go for that just yet...although the fact that they've indicated they want to fight in Florida, North Carolina, and especially Georgia(!?) might suggest otherwise.

With so many unregistered members of target DEMographics in magenta states, I'm not sure late June polling is going to provide much of an insight into what's going to happen in the Sun Belt on Election Day. TX, LA, MS, FL, GA, and NC are big grey areas; I'd say conventional wisdom dictates that those states are more than likely to go to McCain, but it really depends on what kind of campaign the Obama people - either officially, with paid campaign staff micromanaging everything, or unofficially, with particularly enthusiastic Obama supporters working on their own initiative - decide to run.

Anonymous said...

The Texas Lyceum poll was of adults. Do you count them the same as polls of registered voters?

Colin said...

On the Win Percentage meter, are you tracking the percentage of electoral votes you project each candidate to win, or are you tracking each candidate's percentage chance to win?

Meaning, are you projecting that Obama will win 65.5% of the electoral votes, or are you projecting a 65.5% chance that Obama will be elected?

Patrick said...

Hey, can we get a link or something to the current "snapshot," the results if the election were held today?

Projecting to November is admirable and all, but I always liked to look at the current electoral polling map to consider strategic possibilities. They may have just been polling averages, but they were the best damn polling averages on the internet.

Kid G said...

Why is Virginia suddenly less than 50% for Obama? The raw data does not show any recent polls where he is behind. This one difference seems to have shifted the entire distribution significantly.

mikeel said...

Nate, what do you think of SUSA polling running mate combinations?

Their latest Ohio poll shows 14possible combinations, and the commond thread in all of them is that Obama's percentage of Democrats goes down from 76% to
as low as 59%. Perhaps a Case for Clinton or Edwards as Obama's VP choice?

Icyclemort said...

Hi Nate,

I noticed that states that haven't been polled recently aren't trend adjusted, why not?

Anonymous said...

Nate,

It would be really useful to have graphs of Quinniapac, SUSA, Rasmussen, Mason-Dixon and Research 2000 and how each performed in each of the 13-15 battleground states.

That would show us where each pollster got it wrong in these critical states and how we should interpert each results in each state.

I.e. You should have a "POLLSTER PERFORMANCE COEFFICIENT" that would measure Obama bias (for or against)

It seemed to me that SUSA underestimated Obama's performance in close or lost primaries. Quinniapac OTOH slightly favored him IIRC.

I also think that these COEFFICIENTS should factor in whether states are west or east of the Mississippi.

Now Iowa is on the Mississippi quite literally so I'll leave the difficult math to you.

kubla000 said...

I don't like SUSA's polling method because it is so different than everyone else's and I think it muddles the sample. Honestly, sitting through a poll, as I did once, for SUSA, is a taxing thing, often taking nearly 15 minutes or more. It usually doesn't even take that long to vote, at least where I live.

Many people are busy, especially younger people with shorter attention spans, and if a poll is hung up on, it's incomplete and thrown away.

Having a poll that takes that long to run with that many choices has got to weed the sample of some number of voters who may be lower information younger voters, also likely potential Obama supporters.

I wish SUSA would drop the Veep bullshit because it really tells us nothing at all at this point. Only the campaigns need to be polling for Veep picks as of now, SUSA's insistance on continuing this, as well as their inexplicable reliance on Likely voters that seems to screen out Obama support, is making for very bad sets of data. The MN poll was total junk compared to others and now this Ohio poll is the same.

You'll recall the May poll of Ohio didn't have that Veep business. It's possible then that the difference in Party ID was the loss of a certain type of Obama voter who simply didn't have the attention span or patience to sit through that entire poll. I've yet to see one of these polls conducted in this method mesh with what Q and Rass are finding.

kubla000 said...

I'd like to add, besides just MN, the recent MO poll by SUSA also was questionably whacky.

I'd like to see what the Models look like if all these Veep Selection Polls are simply tossed out of the data sets. Most state polls start with Voter Reg then go right to candidates, and at this point, with Obama's massive new GOTV operation and the GOP's proven GOTV operation, that's the better number than Likely voters.

The Obama effect is highly unpredictable and I just saw Chuck Todd yesterday on Hardball suggest that the Likely Voter polls are really a bad idea because with such vigerous GOTV operations on both sides, you can't figure it out at this point.

Could you run a side analysis, just for your purposes maybe Nate, to see if my complaint is possibly on to something? I think the SUSA polls are just whacky once too often for my taste.

lilnev said...

On TX: These numbers "feel" about right. I don't think it's worth sinking a bunch of money into TV advertising. But I do think it's worth considerable party-building: voter registration, list building, some joint appearances with down-ticket candidates, etc. I'd probably also throw some low-dollar media into it: radio, print, direct mail.

On MS: This is one of the states where the 538 regression differs rather substantially from the trend-adjusted polling. Any thoughts which demographic factors are over-favoring McCain? (The counterpart is NV, where the demographics favor Obama but the polls haven't backed that up. A neighboring state effect?).

And, the Super Tracker turns down. Let's hope it straightens out soon....

Icyclemort said...

BTW, regarding some off the new details (looks)

The super tracker projection line: thumbs up!

showing the third party share in the pie chart (+)

I am not completely clear on the snapshot value that has been there since yesterday, is this the trend-adjusted value without the "correction towards the mean" (the "election-day-projection-correction"; ugly word, i admit)??

Anonymous said...

Poblano:

Could you please graph the pie charts so that the green is at the bottom? That is, blue, green, and red going counter-clockwise. It provides a better asthetic for comparing blue on the left with red on the right using only the angles of elevation at the bottom of the chart.

Anonymous said...

Question about the adjustments that were made this week.

As I understand it, the leader of a race tends, over time, to lose some of that lead. But doesn't it matter *when* that lead or deficit is taken into account for the purposes of adjustment?

That is to say, a 16 point lead in June might be totally different then a 16 point lead right after a convention bump a couple months before an election...right?

Dan said...

The Lyceum pol heavily overweights Hispanics. Its sample is 54% white and 32% Hispanic. The 2006 Exit polls had it at 75% white and 15% Latino. I doubt registration drives are going to help, the real problem in Texas near the border is that Latinos will not turnout in the general because all the local races are determined in the primary in south Texas.

KQuark said...

McBush hurt himself big time with the offshore drilling in NJ. I think VA should be leaning more towards Obama based on the polls. VA polls very close to the real outcome and if Obama picks Webb as VP VA is a lock.

Anonymous said...

Sorry Nate but the constant refinements to your model have become so incessant that it is hard to say you have a model anymore. It is starting to look like you are in search of a model rather than having one to being with. Unless and until you get your model in order, I suggest you stop making projections. How can one projection anything, if they are constantly refining the model that produces the projection to begin with. Your model swings as wildly as SUSA's poll numbers.

Sean said...

On LA: Party identification numbers there are deceptive. First off, the proportions been jacked by the destruction by Katrina and Rita in the heavily Democratic South LA and around New Orleans.

Second, due to a quirk of Louisiana history and its open primaries for everything, most politicians had a tradition of running in the Democratic primary, regardless of where they would be in any other state. Thus voters who wanted to actually wanted their vote to matter stayed Democratic too, when most of the south shifted Republican. Only in recent decades, accelerating in recent years, has party identification even begun to align with the reality of voters there. It's still in progress, with conservatives shifting Republican.

In short, if you base your projections in Louisiana on party identification, you will be very, very wrong. Read: Inside the Carnival by Wayne Parent.

I suggest a Louisiana specific tweak that downplays party ID in favor of one that looks more at trends for voting for Governor, Senators, and President

Jyrinx said...

@*:49 - Wow, that's got to be the most impressive micro-criticism yet! (And FWIW, I agree :-) )

@*:19 - Yeah, what an amateur, revising his method until he finds the best one he can. I'll take consistently wrong over gradually right any day!

asmodeus said...

so how does party Id correlate to presidential picking? I say chalk it up to the wad of imponderables that it make it worth carrying the election out in practice - if everything could be calibrated precisely there would be no need for any November 4th shenanigans.

Anonymous said...

so much revision at some point becomes a sign that one lacks a method to begin with. But fine, if it makes you feel better following the blind mice.

APoxOnBoth said...

I'm confused by your VA chart, you show either Obama as ahead in 3 out of 4 factors, a +0 lead for McCain on polling average (WTH does that mean?), and yet still give McCain +1.1, which makes no sense, especially as there's no recent polling. Are you projecting a shift based on the MS and KY polling?

Dan K. said...

Re: Anon 7:15/6:19

Most people here love the site for its constant desire to get at the best answer. I'd argue that any of the last 3 iterations of the projection are better than any of the alternatives and I applaud Nate for constantly refining his answer.

Your criticism may become more relevant around the convention in August when consistency will become more important for the "horse race". For now though, Nate's drive for perfection is a pro not a con.

Reflection and improvement are what this site adds to the political sphere.

tim said...

I don't like these latest Ohio and Missouri numbers. Obama is trending downwards. He has to hit the ground more frequently in those states. 3-4 local campaign events should be a must for him. He's spending too much time in these insider/DC-itis meetings and missing out on meeting locals in the rust belt states.

It's time for a more aggressive campaign strategy.

Jake Larocca said...

I think that projecting Indiana and Virginia as Obama states was a little over-hopeful. He can easily win without them, (He can win without Ohio, if he wins Kerry states + Colorado, New Mexico, and Iowa) and they've been red states for a long time and will require serious effort to flip. That effort would be better spent focusing on Colorado and New Mexico, states which are much more likely to flip blue but not as much of a sure bet as Iowa.

Jeff C said...

I see how PartyID could be somewhat fluid. What I think wouldn't be fluid is who the respondent voted for in the last election. I saw one poll that indicated that Obama was only up by 2 points. In the crosstabs, it indicated that its respondents voted for Bush in 04 by 13 points. Clearly this was a flawed poll. Bush only won the country by 2 points and if Obama was winning a Bush+13 subset by 2, he must have been winning the country as a whole by considerably more. When I looked at the other crosstabs, I noticed that the poll also tended to be tilted towards southerners, seniors and religious voters (all typical GOP strongholds).



Why can't they normalize for previous election voting? Of course this assumes that people will be honest in saying who they voted for 3 1/2 years ago. Perhaps there is a reason people would lie. If anything, I'd assume people would lie about switching away from Bush, not to him. Also, you'd need to account for new voters, but surely there is some mathematical way to do that. It just seems to me that previous election votes are a more practical way of normalizing than party IDs.



Thoughts?

Edmund in Tokyo said...

Most of the British pollsters seem to wait not by party ID but by past-vote recall: Ask people how they voted last time and jigger your sample so that it matches the numbers in the actual election. Do any of the US pollsters do this? If not why not?

judas_priest said...

Paul Bradford:
Even if Nate put back the additional "precision" it would be meaningless. If you have a computation the yields a figure of 45% + or - 1 percent, adding an additional decimal place doesn't change the fact that your measurements cannot be more precise than two places.

MC said...

The huge spike is just a product of random sampling simulated by his process. With an N of 10,000 and each EV result representing low % the error is quite a large % of the result. If he ran a larger number of simulations it would smooth out, but you you need an order of magnitude increase to get less spiky results.

What is most interesting is that curve is wide and flat with the newer methods which implies less certainty in the result.

Cugel said...

Nate:

Where do you find your Party ID percentages for the Ohio SUSA Survey? The link you provided is broken!

Where do you know that the percentage of Democrats in the poll is lower in the June poll? I looked at their site and don't see any indication of party ID anywhere.

I can't understand the Ohio SUSA poll. Admittedly they ask the big question: "Obama or McCain?" first.

But, I think I'm fairly well into campaign news and I have absolutely NO idea who "Jindal" is. How the hell can they expect the average voter to be able to make a rational decision among a bunchy of proposed VP candidates most of whom they've never heard of, and almost certainly know nothing about?

It could bias the poll if people just get sick of the idiotic questions about VP candidates. I know I would want to shout at the pollster (if it were a live person SUSA uses robo-calls) "Enough! I don't know who all these people are. I barely have any idea who Rendell is and I have NO opinion at all about Jindal. I'll just have to see who they pick!"

I'd be strongly tempted to just hang up if these idiotic questions kept coming for another 10 minutes. "I don't care who they pick!"

Justin said...

I posted this in an earlier comment section, but got no response. I keep hearing Clinton will energize and turn out Republicans. And the conventional wisdom among some is that she will be a drag on the ticket.

Yet I read on this site and in other polls that there aren't that many Republican identifiers this year.

Does anyone have any hard data on Clinton as a drag or a help (or maybe a neutral) on the ticket? My hunch is the unity of the Dems drowns the unity of the Republicans. When the GOP president's approval is at 27% and economic growth is only 1%, highly unified Dems win.

I think a case for or against Clinton thus hangs on independent voters (and the extent of unity/lack of Dem. voter consolidation if she is/is not on the ticket). But I've seen little data on this. Anyone have any polls with cross-tabs? All I've seen is the generic question, but little in terms of actual matchups.

David M. Shor said...

Edmund in Tokyo:

People tend to lie about their past votes. I remember a poll showing that only 40% of the population claimed to vote for George Bush in 2004.

It might work in Britain though, with it's different culture.

Of course larger sample sizes and higher voter turnout make the need for rejigger much smaller anyway.

asmodeus said...

David Shor: 'different culture' - if only.

jsh1120 said...

Nate,

Perhaps it's the fact that my training was at the University of Michigan's Survey Research Center where the concept of Party ID was first quantified, but I just cannot get my head around the notion of weighting a sample by a factor that cannot be independently verified and is highly correlated with candidate preference. Why not just go all the way and weight the data by a predetermined candiate preference split?

If one believes that Obama's "true" support is 60%, then weight the data so that the sample includes 60% Obama supporters?

Juris said...

Party ID is far too fluid these days for anyone to assume they know the "true" distribution. Back in the day when the founding fathers of American National Election Study (ANES) were first strutting their stuff, the lore (and a lot of the evidence) supported the idea of a fairly stable party ID distribution.

But not only has a lot of research established greater fluidity than the American Voter authors allowed, but right now we may be on the cusp of a rather sharp partisan realignment -- a realignment that we would underestimate to our detriment if we imposed a particular party ID adjustment to the survey data.

Take a look at the trends that Ken Goldstein and Charles Franklin recently showed based on their surveys of Wisconsin:

http://www.pollster.com/blogs/trends_in_party_identification.php

There's a whole lotta movement going on within the last two years (in contrast to a long period of relative stability that preceded it).

So if you wanted to use party ID to (re)weight current election surveys in Wisconsin, which party ID distribution would you use as a standard? It would be a terrible idea to do it at all.

I think WI is far from unique in this respect.

J said...

I absolutely love this website, and Nate I have to say this is the best aggregation of pure data and intelligent statistical manipulation of that data that I have seen.

With that, I've done quite a bit of thinking lately about this election, and have to say this:

Ultimately as we approach this election, this country faces great problems, and great questions that are going to shape the next several decades to come. Bill Clinton's presidency, while the literal "bridge to the 21st century" missed the mark ... while it certainly is accurate to say that the 20th century in history did not begin until the aftermath of the first world war, it is equally accurate to say that the 21st century is just now beginning, at the aftermath of the collective initial responses to the end of the cold war and the apparent beginning of a new war, of yet to be defined, but in its early stages described as "the war on terror" or "the long war," whatever those terms mean.

But at any rate, to freeze time in 2008, the quetion is clear. Our country needs to make serious decisions, by serious people, and those decisions are going to have ramifications that will have far reaching effects over the next several years and decades.

These decisions, from simple knowable domestic decisions on health care and tax policy and the ultimately pointless questions of surveilannce, to the more important questions of control over energy resources and security, the ability to keep the global financial system operating in a world of rapidly increasing, and I would argue irreversible globalization, which in turn, has led to the rapid accumulation of wealth in non-traditonal hands, whether by pure luck (oil), or population combined with industrializaion (India).

These questions, and of course many more will directly be facing our next president. The 44th president will face a world possibly on the brink of both religious and resource wars.

But ultimately, this site is about quite simply projecting the American election, correct? So how will Americans answer these questions. The polling right now, nationally, seens to show a rather low level of support for both candidates. Neither can break 50% nationally, and only in few, very safe states, are either candidate consistently breaking 50% at the statewide level. (foregive me for drawing this conclusion from a 45 second scan, if this is not true, let me know)

The American people realize that this is a unique time, neither candidate is planning on simply staying the course (after all, that would be impossible. agree or not, but the current president has been castrated by his low approval ratings, hostile congress, and his own consistent inability to sell his policies). Both sides will have to define themselves, and neither has done so. And both will have the complicated task to define themselves in a rapidly changing world, where the politics of energy and food, politics that have an effect on everybody, every single American, will come in to play.

Let's hope both engage in an honest, thorough debate. I like McCain's town hall ideas. I'd like to see them educate, and discuss their ideas with people throughout the country, together as much as possible. Let the people choose who they agree with, not by who saturates the airwaves, or by who gives a single captivating speech, or by who smoozes himself up to the media on a campaign the entire time.

This is an important election. We are all excited. I'm not surprised to see so much soft support, and so many numbers in the low 40s at this point. Hopefully, the candidate who can best show real solutions to the problems Americans both are facing and will face will be able to cross that border.

Edmund in Tokyo said...

There's a nice discussion of weighting by previous-vote remembering (in a British context) here:

http://politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2005/03/28/why-pollsters-ask-how-you-voted-last-time/

sweetjazz3 said...

Nate,

It would seem worthwhile to find a way to tweak your projections to account for party ID somewhat. I mean, this new Ohio poll is likely not indicative of a major growth in Republican Party affiliation, but rather the result of a more Republican-heavy sample.

We may not be able to say what the actual party ID is in Ohio (if we only had those two polls, our best guess would be average them), but you should be able to use it to adjust your projections. The decline in support for Obama in Ohio between the two polls is most likely due to a difference in samples, not something meaningful. So your projection should be changed to reflect the fact that it appears, given this recent survey, that Republican Party identification may have been underestimated slightly in past polls (while of course this poll probably overestimated it a bit as well), not because Obama is trending downward. In particular, expecting him to do worse in polls in other states because of this new Ohio poll seems foolish from the information you provided. But it seems your recent changes will incorporate this expectation.

I think there must be some way to incorporate the party ID data when it is available to make your projections more accurate.

Juris said...

Nate,
That is troubling advice, it seems to me. If you start adjusting the polls by party ID, without any systematic criteria for doing so other than that the party ID varies from one poll to the next (just like the horse race), you might as well give up the project.

The best and only defensible approach, it seems to me, is to have multiple polls from a given state or to do as you already have, which is to use pollster reliability (PIE) and sample size as a weighting factor for the poll.

I recall the title of one of your BP articles a few years ago: "Randomness! Catch It!" Polls have it, and not just because of sampling but also because of other unpredictable factors that may affect the responses to a particular survey question at a particular time. The best teams in baseball each year typically win just 60% of their games, and sometimes the winner isn't the most talented. Why? Should we award the championship based on adjusted season wins -- because we "know" which team is truly better?

I've done a lot of surveys. Survey results have a lot of noise in them. There are methods to reduce error or to correct for it after the fact but not to eliminate it. But we conduct surveys because they are the best approximation of what it is we want to know about a given subject.

Anonymous said...

There's obviously no need to discuss who should be the projected winner in DC. However, the projected Obama results, currently 83.9 percent, makes me wonder if the model might need some adjustment. Since 1992, no Democrat has had less than 85 percent of the vote in DC. Even Mondale carried DC with 85 percent! Kerry had 89 percent, and I would expect Obama to do better than that. Is there something particular in the regression that hurts Obama?

Anonymous said...

I'm not sure about the projections for November. All these "Projections" are based upon up to date polls. So the polls change and so do the projection. I much preferred knowing how the race looked today. Prognosticating about what will happen in the future is the pundits job, and they suck at it. No amount of math can predict the future.

Nate, get rid of the projections, just show today's map. I think your mover complicating this
.

Anonymous said...

John McCain is getting rocked in NJ. Central Jersey is gonna landslide for Obama. McCain may break even in South Jersey but it won't be nearly enough.

unertl said...

I saw this line in the FDU poll of NJ:

"Obama’s lead increases substantially, from 13 to 18 points, when voters are asked questions about President Bush and Iraq before they are asked who they might vote for in the election. Half of respondents were asked questions about President Bush and the war in Iraq before being asked who they would vote for in the November election, while the other half were asked about the president and Iraq afterwards."

Nate talked about question ordering before, but I didn't know it would make THAT huge of a difference.

Link to the poll details here

JGabriel said...

Nate,

This map looks really close to expected outcomes. I think it's closing in on a pretty good methodology.

But Anon@6:56 makes a good point. Absent any polling in DC - which is the current situation - one would expect Obama to be running in the range of 90% +/- 4 there.

Also, given all the polls in VA, plus the demographics, and the political situation (Democratic Governor, one Dem Senator with Warner overwhelmingly expected to make it two in Nov., and several Dem House wins expected due to retiring House Republicans), one would expect VA to be at least a light blue, despite it's electoral history.

Finally, to show that the bias isn't simply geographical, there are only two polls for ND, with conflicting results. But the DWU poll has a ridiculously small sample size (260), and the SUSA poll has Obama leading by +4. Under the circumstances, a methodolgy that results in a 77% win percentage for McCain in ND looks counterintuitive. One would expect McCain's win percentage there to be in the high 60's to low 70's, at best.

So something still seems a little off in the projections. I don't know what it is, maybe the polls are being underweighted? Whatever the source of the problem, if there is one, the projections methodology appears to be leaning just a little too far to the right.

.

Anonymous said...

Does anyone else think Obama's "moving to the center" is risky? His greatest strength is that he's seen as not "of Washington". The way he's flopping around lately, he looks worse than McCain. Against FISA, turning down public financing, pro 2nd amendment, pro death penalty. Its like a completely different guy. I hope he knows what he's doing.

JGabriel said...

Anon@9:48, there's not much that's particularly inconsistent there.

Obama's always been a moderate on gun issues, pro-death penalty, and he turned down public financing in the primaries.

The only incongruous position you've mentioned is his turn-around on the FISA capitulation.

The latter may alienate some of the netroots (certainly I'm disappointed by it), but, overall, I don't see anything particularly risky here. Yet.

.

Mugwump said...

jgabriel, Obama was active in trying to get the death penalty effectively abolished in IL and he has always backed Chicago's ban on possessing hanguns (which the NRA will now get nullified after the SC ruling).

Last year, Obama's campaign said he did not believe the DC ban was unconstitutional and to try to cover that up he has been emphasizing that he has always maintained as a con law prof that the Second Amendment protects individual rights (but he favors lots of gun regulations).

Patrick said...

Hey, speaking of Texas, it might be interesting to see if there is a negative correlation between the size of a state (by population) and the volatility (difference between actual result and average of polls?).

States like Texas and New York are very unlikely to switch, but smaller states (Georgia and Minnesota?) might be more swayed by a concerted push.

For the model this could mean something like flattening the win percentage curve when the state is smaller.

JGabriel said...

Mugwump, perhaps you misunderstand the use of the word 'moderate', or it's definition.

For instance, Obama (and anyone with a brain) would naturally have reservations about the death penalty in Illinois after former Gov. Ryan commuted and put a moratorium on the death penalty following proof that 13 people sentenced to death in Illinois were, in fact, innocent of the charges.

That said, Obama has approved of the death penalty for child rape in the past (as far back as debates with Alan Keyes in 2004), and it can be concluded that there are instances in which he thinks it appropriate. While I disagree with that view, it's quite mainstreanm and generally regarded as 'moderate'.

Similiarly, Obama has spoken frequently about how different areas, particularly rural areas, should have less need of gun regulation than urban areas with high murder rates. That's a fairly widespread and common view, one that again fits the definition of 'moderate'.

.

KAP said...

Yet another brilliant stupid suggestion

OK, I know this is more work than you'd like, but would it be possible to make the vote distribution histogram clickable? Such that when you click it, you get a larger version? Right now, the x-axis is about 300 pixels long, which is (ahem) obviously way too small to accomodate 538 discrete result possibilities. Some of us numbers geeks would enjoy doing a bit more computation from your results. Thank you.

Rasmus said...

JGabriel
Nate,

"This map looks really close to expected outcomes. I think it's closing in on a pretty good methodology.

But Anon@6:56 makes a good point. Absent any polling in DC - which is the current situation - one would expect Obama to be running in the range of 90% +/- 4 there."

Yes, but DC is really hard to predict, because it´s such an outlier. It´s not hard for McCain to get some few percentage points in a few variables. There are some evangelicals in DC, for example, so the regression gives him a few points. It´s the same as with the polls that show Obama leading 85-15 with blacks- even pollsters know it is too less, but almost no one gets it right.

"Also, given all the polls in VA, plus the demographics, and the political situation (Democratic Governor, one Dem Senator with Warner overwhelmingly expected to make it two in Nov., and several Dem House wins expected due to retiring House Republicans), one would expect VA to be at least a light blue, despite it's electoral history."

Actually there are some May polls showing McCain in the lead, and the most recent polls show it as a Toss-Up. The political situation doesn´t matter much, otherwise was Maine a Toss-Up and Arkansas reliably Democratic. There is a HUGE difference between Democratic performances in Presidential and State Races.
And Bush won Virginia by - what was it? 10 points?- there are a lot of Evangelicals, and a lot of Black, what tends to push the white vote to the Republicans, but not enough blacks to get to 30% or so just with them. Then there are a lot of Appalachian people ("Americans"), so there is good reason to show the state as a Toss-Up. And the Snapshot shows the state as slightly blue.

"Finally, to show that the bias isn't simply geographical, there are only two polls for ND, with conflicting results. But the DWU poll has a ridiculously small sample size (260), and the SUSA poll has Obama leading by +4. Under the circumstances, a methodolgy that results in a 77% win percentage for McCain in ND looks counterintuitive. One would expect McCain's win percentage there to be in the high 60's to low 70's, at best."
Actually it is counterintuitive to me to keep Obamas numbers up because of ONE SUSA poll in February, taken at a time where Obama was ahead nationwide, and which tends to look like an outlier.
The Repubs had a 14-point PartyID advantage here in ´04, no minorities here, and most whites are rural, uneducated and poor. Sounds not really like Democratic. Obama has a chance to win, but I think 1/4 is not a bad guess.

"So something still seems a little off in the projections. I don't know what it is, maybe the polls are being underweighted?"
No. They SHOULD be underweighted, because they are 4 months old. New Polls are not underweighted. The regression should just give more data for states without polling, as a main reason.

Whatever the source of the problem, if there is one, the projections methodology appears to be leaning just a little too far to the right.

I´d say it´s about right now, even if I still don´t like the recent changes, the results seem not bad.

JGabriel said...

Mostly good points, Rasmus. I don't really agree with all of them, but they're certainly valid points of debate.

And I do agree that VA is a pure toss-up - which one would expect to show up in the winning percentages as white rather than light red, and supports the contention that the methodology is leaning just a smidgen too far to the right. I guess I overstated the case a little bit when arguing that it should be light blue.

The only point I take exception to is this:

Rasmus: Actually it is counterintuitive to me to keep Obamas numbers up because of ONE SUSA poll in February, taken at a time where Obama was ahead nationwide, and which tends to look like an outlier.

Huh? How can it be considered an outlier if there aren't any other polls to compare it to? (And no, the DWU poll, with its 260 sample size, does not count as a valid point for comparison.)

I'd accept the argument that the SUSA poll runs counter to ND electoral history, but to call it an 'outlier' under the circumstances is just plain silly.

By the way, are you Scott Rasmussen, or just using the 'Rasmus' handle as a nice, polling-centric, nick?

.

JGabriel said...

Rasmus: Then there are a lot of Appalachian people ("Americans")...

That raises an interesting point, and a question I have.

Do we have much (or any) evidence that the 'American' demographic that so clearly preferred Clinton to Obama in the primaries, will similiarly prefer McCain to Obama in the general, and at the same ratios?

I'm not sure that it deserves the same weight going forward that it had in the primaries. The 'American' demo seems likely to have many voters who are willing to support Obama now that he is the Democratic nominee, despite their lack of prior support.

I'm not suggesting that the 'American' demo should be abandoned, but perhaps it should get a lighter weight?

.

michael said...

I have to say, it does seem strange to see a wave of polls yesterday that were mainly good news for Obama and then see his EV go DOWN.

As for "Anonymous
Does anyone else think Obama's "moving to the center" is risky? His greatest strength is that he's seen as not "of Washington". The way he's flopping around lately, he looks worse than McCain. Against FISA, turning down public financing, pro 2nd amendment, pro death penalty. Its like a completely different guy. I hope he knows what he's doing.
2008-06-28 07:48"

I agree, it is troubling, but whether it is Reagan and Bush or McCain on the right or Clinton and Obama on the left, pols always tack to the center during the general. My gut is that, unlike Clinton, who was NEVER a liberal as governor, Obama has a lot of progressive instincts. Public financing opt out makes a lot of sense, and what is he going to do, come out in favor of the supremes on child rape so mccain can hang the "pro-child-rapist" handle on him? Even in these 2 weeks, not at all Obama's finest hour on principle, he has taken mccain on on iraq, immigration and off-shore drilling, so I am not despairing. The whole game is McCain will try very hard to find a way to paint Obama as a scary "exotic" radical, and Obama will do his best to be a fungible target

Pete Kent said...

The most interesting thing about the SUSA OH poll is that no matter what the VP matchups, with a couple of exceptions, Obama loses to McCain -- even if he puts Strickland on the ticket. Curiously they did not poll for HRC's impact as Veep. Still I wonder if the rephasing of the question with a VP choice doesn't unmask some of the Bradley effect and give some of the timid anti-Obama vote some courage for coming out against him. Also in general we see again a real stalling of Obama's momemtum. He won't debate, will have to face facts on Iraq and is being stubborn on drilling. What will get him off the dime?

JGabriel said...

Right, Pete. Because McCain's '100 years in Iraq' position is polling so well with the general populace.

Pete Kent said...

As the previous poster knows the 100 years in Iraq statement has been taken out of context and its use as supporting 100 years of war has been thoroughly discredited.

With Oil at $140/BB and with American and European oil companies returning to Iraq to exploit resources that rival Saudi Arabia's, the notion of an extended commitment to Iraqi security is sensible and not far-fetched.

We have been in Europe for over 60 years. Our presence there was fundamental to the collapse of Soviet communism -- the primary threat this nation faced in the post war era.

It takes hardly any intellectual leap of faith to support a long term American presence in the Middle East which has now become the chief locus of our most threatening enemies.

Any resistance to that idea is folly and when the argument is ultimately phrased against the backdrop of an improved political and security situation in Iraq, it will become a no brainer. Especially when we are reminded of our dependence on the Middle East each time we dump $50 to $75 dollars of their oil in gas tanks.

Don't be so sure of yourself, JGabriel.

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