Why haven't the Democrats thought about nominating a Midwestern candidate before? States like Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin, Iowa and Missouri have all traditionally been swing states, giving the region the most fertile electoral soil on the map, winnable by either party in any given cycle. Two new polls today suggest that having a Midwestern candidate in Barack Obama may be paying dividends to the Democrats.
In Indiana, SurveyUSA has Obama with a 1-point lead on John McCain. A couple of other polls, including one conducted by SurveyUSA in April, had also shown a lead for Obama. But that polling had been done in the run-up to the state's primary, and the results frankly seemed aberrant. For Obama to continue to be battling Indiana to a draw is fairly impressive, and puts a state in play that the Republicans probably never expected they'd have to defend.
Apart from Obama being a Midwesterner, the explanation for his results in Indiana may be as simple as this: the Democrats had never really bothered to compete in the state before, until the presence of an important primary there forced them to. Certainly, Indiana has been reliably Republican for a long time -- in 1992, Bill Clinton won every state bordering Indiana, but did not win Indiana itself. But that should also have provided a hint that there is nothing about Indiana that makes it demographically impossible for the Democrats; Democrats have found success in each of its neighbors. If Obama can hold his deficit in Southern Indiana to 10-12 points, tie in the small, industrial towns of Northern Indiana, and rack up 20+ point margins in Indianapolis and the Gary/Hammond region bordering Chicago, he can win the state.
Just to Indiana's north, Public Policy Polling shows Obama with a 9-point edge in Michigan. Although Obama's numbers in our Michigan polling averages still lag just a little bit behind those in Pennsylvania and Ohio, the state seems to be making up for lost time, breaking out of its state of self-imposed exile from the primary process. Michigan was by far John McCain's best opportunity to play offense in a Kerry state, and while it may tighten again if the national polls do, it might also eventually revert to its traditional position of polling about 3-5 points better for the Democrats than their numbers nationwide.
Finally, in New Mexico, SurveyUSA has Obama ahead by 3. While Rasmussen has usually shown New Mexico as an Obama state, SurveyUSA's last poll had shown the state tied. Obama is leading 63-34 among Hispanic voters in this poll, who make up about 30 percent of New Mexico's electorate.
6.24.2008
Today's Polls, 6/24
by Nate Silver @ 6:07 PM...see also indiana, michigan, new mexico, today's polls
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66 comments
Thanks for the update Nate. A new LA Times national poll just came out, too, with Obama up 49-37 heads-up and 48-33 with Nader and Barr included. Perhaps the Newsweek poll was not as large an outlier as we thought?
I saw that, and the poll did get included in the trend analysis. This is probably the best polling day for Obama since the Quinnipiac polls came out. But my best guess at where the race stands is embodied in the graph you see just to the left of you -- Obama is ahead by 5-6 points.
Obama's bounce isn't receding.
Interseting stuff; thank, Nate.
Yes, Nate- will you please comment on the new LA Times poll? Another outlier, or a confirmation of Newsweek?
Republican senator runs Pro-Obama ad
Link
Hmm, I think the dynamics of this election can be summed up simply.
ObamaLover: Pls vote for Obama, he is the best hope of bringing us back from the wrong path the country is currently headed.
Independent: (and racial bigots): I can't vote for him, he is naive, inexperienced, liberal, democrat, pro-choice (and black).
ObamaLover: F@@k you, what'u gonna do? Vote Mccain?
I heard an interesting line the other day - McCain cant win, but Obama can lose. In other words, he is in the drivers seat. Seeing polls that he is up 10%+ reinforce that, even if it is only the end of June.
Sorry Nate- I posted before I saw your comment.
I was looking at the MO numbers- is there an error? There are two SUSA polls from 5/17 that show different Ns and different results.
North Dakota is inching ever closer to blue litmus instead of red...
Aaron,
Nope, SurveyUSA released two different Missouri polls that covered the exact same time period. It's a little weird, I know.
There is a 54% gender disparity in SUSA NM poll.
http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReport.aspx?g=31e69724-cf94-4dbc-b14b-961f53d67e39
W
T
F
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Nate asks:
"Why haven't the Democrats thought about nominating a Midwestern candidate before?"
Because Democrats consider Midwesterners to be knuckle-dragging Neanderthals. Only "real people" like Coastal Elites are capable of understanding the enlightened ways of taxation and infanticide.
The new LA Times poll is very interesting. It's GREAT news for Obama across the board. But I thought most interesting was that they say Nader takes more votes from McCain than Obama! I think what's happening here is Nader & Barr are drawing RACIST votes from McCain. There's really no other way to see this. It's pretty obvious. Why would anyone who would vote for Nader be voting for McCain over Obama unless they are a racist? I'm sorry but I just can't think of any rational reason.
""Only "real people" like Coastal Elites are capable of understanding the enlightened ways of taxation and infanticide.""
Actually, when it comes to infanticide, no one is more prolific than nature (i.e. "God").
"Michigan was by far John McCain's best opportunity to play offense in a Kerry state . . . ."
I've always thought McCain had better chances in NH than MI.
I saw an article, can't remember where, that said Nader probably draws alot of disgruntled Hillary supporters who would have otherwise voted McCain -- that's why Obama polls better with Nader in the race as opposed to without Nader.
"Why haven't the Democrats thought about nominating a Midwestern candidate before?"
Because they did and then George McGovern (SD) and Walter Mondale (MN) got their asses handed to them? (And Hubert Humphrey (MN) lost to Nixon as well.)
Is it possible to get a map showing where we are at in each state and compare it to where things will probably end up according to your estimates. I would really like to see the comparison and progression. thanks again for this site, its great. Have been following it daily
Granholm isn't eligible.
Hot Rod is totally corrupt.
Ted Strickland's been in office for two years.
The governor of Indiana wasn't very popular by the time he left office.
ed Rendell has foot-in-mouth disease.
That leaves Jim Doyle, plus a bunch of Senators, none of whom, other than Russ Feingold and evan Bayh, have ever shown much interest in being President. And I think it's clear Bayh passed on running in 2004 because he didn't think it was a good year to run, and that he might run in 2008. Feingold has pissed off so many people I don't think he could raise the scratch.
So the answer to your question is "there's no one to run". I guess Tom Harkin or Dick Gephardt if you count those two states.
Finally a new poll from Indiana! I was cautious of the earlier Indiana polls as they were done when Barack was paying all his attention to the state due to the primary so I thought that those polls may have overstated his actual support but this poll has to be devastating for McCain.
Anyone know what's up with the Indiana poll? The party ID numbers only add up to 93%.
Having grown up and gone to college in Indiana one thing that I've noticed is how good a bell weather St. Joseph county is.
Bush beat Kerry by 2.4%, won the nation by 2.5%
Gore beat Bush by 0.2%, won the national vote by 0.5%
Go back to '96 and Clinton/Dole/Perot splits are almost identical
Go back to '92 and its slightly less good but still very very close
also take in to consideration even though all these's poll's have both obama and mccain withing 5 points in alought of state's there vp's will make a big difference also in the poll's like in ny,or,mi,nc,va. it bring's them all either closer or farther apart so dont take these's poll's to litteraly yet, wait for there vp's to be on the ticket's too then we should get the real number's coming in.
McCain event draws record number of protesters
http://thepoliticalcarnival.blogspot.com/2008/06/mccain-event-draws-record-number-of.html
need more events like this :)
From the LA Times poll:
"In this national poll's random sample of voters, 39% identified themselves as Democrats, 22% as Republicans, and 27% as independents."
http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-poll25-2008jun25,0,5763707.story
39/22 D/R? Yeah. Right. So, the poll had a D+17 split and Obama is still only up 12 in the head to head matchup? That's good news for Obama?
Anon @ 5:36
"North Dakota is inching ever closer to blue litmus instead of red..."
North Dakota will probably poll like Alaska when the next poll does come out.
Yeah VT for being the only state 100% for either candidate.
Still the only state Bush hasn't visited (though his wife just did).
Dean was the biggest Bush-basher in '04 and really started the trend.
Jeffords gave the Dems the 1st majority after Cheney and Bush finally pissed him off enough.
Leahy was told to go f*@k himself by Cheney, and we have Sanders who is the most progressive politician in America.
ah -- Erik @6:05pm beat me to it on the humphrey/mcgovern/mondale mentions.
@Houston
It is indeed very good news.
The first part is the +12% margin. If you have kept up with recent polling you would know that the gap between D and R is responses to party ID has been growing, so this is close enough to what is probably the underlying "true" figure. It may be a bit high on the D side, which may help explain why tis margin is wider than that shown on mostother polls.
BTW, given that (as I understand it) Rasmussen weights his sample to adjust for partisan balance. Thus, since other data indicate a growing disparity on partisan ID, Rusmussen's methodology problem has a sligh pro R tilt this season. Those more familiar with Rasmussen's methodology may be able to confirm, alter or rebut my analysis.
The second part is that the admitted fall-off between Ds and those opting for Obama means that there are probably signficant numbers of Democrats supporting McCain, at this time. The literature makes it clear that a signficant number of those who are disaffected in June come home by November, thus indicating that Obama has room to increase his margin.
Humphrey barely lost.
McGovern and Mondale were up against Nixon and Reagan...of course they are going to be destroyed.
What's your point?
Judas, the split is D+17, not D+12. Rasmussen uses a D+10 model right now...that 7 point difference would probably bring it back down to Obama +5.
Houston:
There is some indication that Rasmussen's +10 model is too conservative, and that the actual split is greater than than. Not hugely so, but larger. I am quite willing to concede that the particular survey may have more Ds that the "true value." If so, this would indicate that the "true" margin may be between 7 and 10% at this time. As a Democrat and prospective Obama voter, I'd take it.
My other observation about upside room stands,
Keep spinning those numbers in favor of Obama. In case you didn't look at the crosstabs of the poll, Indianapolis was 49-47 McCain. So much for that 20% you suggested.
Well, yes, Mondale and Humphrey, and for that matter Stevenson, from Obama's own Illinois. But all that was 24 or more years ago, and you can't run on what didn't or did work then. McC's running on what worked four years ago, and not doing so well.
Harry Truman (D): Missouri.
Adlai Stevenson (D): Illinois.
HHH (D): Minnesota.
Fritz Mondale (D): Minnesota.
Barack Obama (D): Illinois.
One of those guys even published in the American Political Science Review. Then again, so did Dick Cheney (and do did yours truly). What a rag that must be!
For a look at an illustrative state's change in partisan ID, consider Wisconsin. From a +2 Demoratic edge in 2000 it's now approaching 15%.
http://politicalarithmetik.blogspot.com/2008/06/trends-in-party-identification-in.htmlhttp://politicalarithmetik.blogspot.com/2008/06/trends-in-party-identification-in.html
@This site sucks..
Wouldn't McCain being up 2 in Indianapolis but Obama still leading the state indicate that the lead is even more impressive. If Obama can build up a lead in Indianapolis then he'd have a great shot at carrying the state (more likely though is that the poll includes the surrounding areas in the "Indianapolis Area" crosstab)
@Anonymous@6:56:
My point is not that Midwestern Democrats can't win the Presidency, my response is merely to Nate's question about why we didn't run one earlier.
Except for the Massachusetts men, and the southerners who won pluralities of the popular vote at least once, every Democratic nominee for President since FDR has been from the Midwest. It's not some magic formula that's been lying in wait this whole time we'd yet to hit on.
Why haven't the Democrats thought about nominating a Midwestern candidate before?
In more recent years, the Midwestern candidates for the Dem nomination have included such live wires as John Glenn and Dick Gephardt.
Until Obama, 'charismatic Midwestern Dem' was in oxymoron territory.
I don't have a link but I remember offhand Evan Bayh making exactly the same argument you did here, Nate, that Indiana's not competitive just because Democrats haven't really tried. I have to say, I thought that was typical home-state bloviating, but now I'm starting to wonder. What a great start to 2008 this has been.
The best political part of an Obama victory will be Mudcat Saunders finally being put out to pasture.
Hot damn! I may not say "Fuck the South" but I definitely say "Fuck the Mudcat."
Nate,
Can you do a post about which poll methodology statistically is better: changing the party identification to the current poll's party identification or using older/more stable party indentifications.
This seems to cause most of the big differences between polls and I was wondering if you had any data on which is more accurate.
The more I think about it the more I think Evan Bayh should be Obama's VP candidate. He is and ex-governor and current Senator which gives him executive and foreign policy bona fides. He can turn a red state Blue. He can balance out change with experience while not being too much of a Democratic establishment candidate to spoil Obama's message. Also I think McBush is going to pick Pawlenty, which could put MN in play so this would make McBush defend IN.
The exceptions have been already noted in the comments, but the reason both parties have shied away from nominating Midwesterners is because they tend to be pragmatic and therefore have less appeal to their parties' ideological wings, and that's who votes in primaries and caucuses. Some recent Democratic failures include Harkin, Kerrey, Gephardt and Paul Simon; they were beaten by guys from the South and Northeast. Bob Dole finally got nominated by the GOP when they had no chance of winning.
What's Interesting About the LA Times/Bloomberg Poll:
The partisan ID for this poll was:
38% Democrats
22% Republicans
32% Independents*
If you use Nate's "World's Simplest Election Projection" (the Excel Spreadsheet from this site: http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/06/worlds-simplest-election-projection.html ) and adjust the Voter ID to exactly what Nate's estimate is, based on all the national polling and his best estimate, here's what you come up with:
Nate's Voter ID:38.2% Democrat (instead of 39% In the LA Times Poll), 28.9% Republican, (instead of 22% in the LA Poll), and 33.2% Indpendent, (instead of 27% independent + 10% DK/didn't answer = 37%).
Here's what you find: Obama +8.1%
That's a lot more in line with other polls and is a lot more reasonable. But, it's still a HUGE lead for Obama. If he can hold that size lead through November, we could expect him to win close to 390 electoral votes, which, while not a landslide like '64, '72, '80, or '84, is still a big win by historical standards.
Obama's lead is very unlikely to be 15% unless Democrats simply SWAMP Republicans at the polls in November to skew partisan voter ID by 17%. That is certainly possible, given what Gallup found about voter enthusiasm, with Conservative Republicans not very enthusiastic about voting for McCain, while Democrats are much more excited by Obama's candidacy.
Republicans could just decide to stay home on election day. But, it's still very unlikely that partisan ID on election day will favor Democrats by 17%.
*(I'm including Other Party ID/No answer/Don't know as Independents, LA Times breakdown is actually 22% Independents, which leaves 10% undefined. It doesn't add up to 100% which screws things up! You have to add refused to answer, don't know, or other party ID to the independents column. This actually helps McCain a little bit since he's winning Independents 36%-33% over Obama in this poll, but it doesn't change the overall result of Obama +8.1 by much).
@judas_priest
"Rusmussen's methodology problem has a sligh pro R tilt this season. Those more familiar with Rasmussen's methodology may be able to confirm, alter or rebut my analysis".
I agree with you, I have been following Rasmussen polling and its methodology for a while, its tilted pro R.
Rasmussen is pro-R in their own political opinions, but I don't think their methodology necessarily is.
I used to think so based on the fact that their Bush Approval was so much higher than everyone else's. However, the reason is that they break approval and disapproval into "strongly" and "somewhat" categories, which I've grown to like. There are still only 49% who STRONGLY disapprove. that's the highest it's ever been and I think 50+ would represent a major tipping point and be extremely bad news for McCain.
To the person who said that this site is biased towards Obama, I completely disagree - I think that if anything this is one of the most unbiased sites with regard to reporting the figures.
During the Primaries the numbers were better for Clinton vs McCain than for Obama. Right around the time Clinton dropped out, they were better for McCain in the Obama/Mccain comparison.
This is actually one of the more conservative sites because most of the other sites are just reporting poll figures without a true breakdown - but they too show Obama is ahead - DEAL WITH IT.
Houston: "39/22 D/R? Yeah. Right."
In much of the country D/R is running between 2:1 and 3:2.
You really can't blame the pollsters for that, you'll have to blame Bush instead.
.
Another nice piece of analysis.
After 20 years of the south dominating American politics, could this be the Midwest rising? Could it be Ted Strickland in '16 (or Sebelius, or Granholm - I know, I know, Canadian - or Franken or ???)
Also, in 1992 Dan Quayle was on the ticket and he was from Indiana. Anyways, I can't imagine that the reason Indiana has never been close is simply bc Democrats never competed there. John Kerry lost by 27 points! I don't know what it is, but Indiana does seem more conservative than the rest of the midwest.
Obama could easily carry Indiana. I have defended this State for years now concerning it's nack for being a "red state." Indiana is very purple, affected by the same issues facing the entire midwest and as noted and apparent by the Primary, a winable state for the Dems if time and money are spent here.
Indiana democrats, myself included, have felt very disenfranchised by the electoral system. If Indiana would at least allow our electorits to split for Pres, it would be better. However, all or nothing has left many democrats at home on election day. I have a feeling that the democrats this cycle smell blood and will come out in huge numbers, which would spell doom for "McBush."
I think Indiana is absolutely in play. Obviously past elections show that it is slightly more conservative than Ohio and it's a state that Clinton never won but demographics change.
The reason it is closer is firstly Obama's unique appeal to people who are not overtly political and also the fact that Illinois borders Northern Indiana. You also can't ignore the fact that Indiana has had a Democratic governor and now a senator in Evan Bayh so it is not a state that automatically rejects Democratic candidates.
More to the point though. If Indiana is even remotely in play (ie if Obama is within 6 points) then it's over anyway. Obama only needs to hold the Kerry states and gain 18 electoral votes and if Obama is close in Indiana, he wins in Ohio (and Iowa) which gives him plenty.
I've said this before but if Obama gets a further bounce from his joint appearances with Hillary this week and McCain is unable to turn the tide of bad news stories (Charlie Black, the psychological benefits of offshore drilling) the polls are only going to get worse for him and the GOP will start to turn on him. This could be a blow out.
If South Dakota is in the Midwest than Louisiana should be as well! We need to address what actually is the Midwest. I like how 538 has labled the countries many regions and does not just lable the middle of the country -- the Middlewest.
Here's a question: I have noticed there hasn't been much comment on the large number of undecideds in many of these polls where Obama is in the lead. Often, the number of undecideds is larger than the spread between Obama and McCain. Is this unusual for June before a presidential election? I did a quick Google search and it seemed that about 4% of respondents were undecided in June '04 polls. I've become a regular reader of this blog, although, admittedly, I don't understand all of the statistics. Would appreciate if Nate or some other stats guru could address this ongoing "undecided" factor. Is it unusually high? What might it mean? Thanks!
While I think IN could swing blue given the wretched state of the economy, living in Southern IN makes me hesitate. Indiana is still the only state to be overtly controlled by the Klan, (elected an out Klan leader governor in the 20s) and while the Klan is quieter now, the sentiments are still very strong.
Today McCain and Obama are tied in the Gallup tracking poll, first time any poll has shown Obama not in the lead since the primaries ended. Rassmussen daily tracking has Obama +4, which makes today's tracking average of Obama +2, the worst for Obama since the primaries ended.
Interestingly, altho McCain consistently did better in the Rasmussen track than Gallup track during the primary season, that has now flipped- throughout this month McCain has consistently done 2-3 points better in Gallup. Not sure why (and Rasmussen's state numbers have seemed more consistent with the smaller Obama lead in Gallup).
The reason undecideds are much higher right now than June 04 seems pretty obvious--in 04 there was an incumbent whose first term generated strong responses from the electorate. The D was fairly generic, so it was a litmus test on Bush, whom everyone had strong opinions about. As much as many of us would like to (more or less accurately) brand McCain as Bush's third term, he's not actually George Bush, and Obama is a candidate with a host strengths and weaknesses (from an electoral perspective) that I'm not surprised to see a high number of undecideds.
I wonder how many of the current undecideds are (historically) R-leaning independents who've historically liked McCain's 'maverick' reputation, who are finding themselves forced to reconsider their normal electoral tendencies in light of the embarrassing, unmitigated disaster that is Republican rule in the 21st century.
@Paul Angelone:
If South Dakota is in the Midwest than Louisiana should be as well! We need to address what actually is the Midwest.
As someone who was raised in Minnesota, I tend to think similar thoughts about Ohio and Missouri, myself. So I'm with you that the term "Midwest" is awfully vague, and it means different things to different people.
But I imagine the same can be said about almost every geographic group outside of New England. Does the Pacific Northwest include San Francisco? Does the South include Oklahoma? Delaware? And how about Texas: is it Southern or Southwestern? And since these categories are tied up with identity, these are as much moral and political questions as cartographic ones. So, you know, they're not very easy.
The upshot of all of this, however, is that, like you, I appreciate the 538 system, because it avoids the traditional categories and the normative pitfalls contained therein.
Indiana may have a very rural/conservative sector in the southern portion of the State (more akin to Kentucky/West Virginia), but it also the least populated. Plus, Bloomington (very liberal) and portions of the metro areas of both Cincinnati and Louisville extend into southern Indiana. My point is that although the rural areas will go McCain, the cities may not. Add this to the rest of central and northern Indiana (where they are much more inline with Illinois, Ohio and Michigan) and Obama has a great opportunity to shade Indiana blue.
I also agree with the poster who stated that if Indiana is within 6points between the two, Obama will have the race wrapped up. Indiana will be a real litmus test for the entire nation as our polls close first and will be the first state with results.
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