Most of you realize that two of us post here now - Nate (the guy who built everything and all around super-star, formerly known as Poblano), and Sean (PocketNines). Some haven't quite caught that, probably because our names are not bolded at the bottom of posts.
I point this out because the subject of the following piece is me speaking for me only. Nate is much more Josh Marshall-objective in his public writings; I always have to keep my inner Rude Pundit in check.
Nate and I both have biases toward Barack Obama - he openly notes his in the FAQ, and although mine isn't noted there yet, if it weren't already clear I'm openly saying so now.
With Hillary Clinton's highly anticipated speech endorsing Barack Obama hours away, I wanted to try a thought experiment at this landmark moment about what kind of approach she could take to reach someone like me. I know that in my feelings toward her I belong to a real, significant percentage of Democrats. Not a majority, but a problematic number if her goal is to ever run for president again. Previously, I haven't believed Hillary Clinton could say anything to bring me back from the alienation toward her I feel. But, what if that's wrong?
In the commentary on this subject, some of which you are sure to see today on television, I haven't seen this subject approached or explained in this manner. Which is why I decided there was value in writing this.
Again, what follow are my opinions, not Nate's. And if you don't want to read a lengthy piece, stop now. It winds up being much longer than I intended, but so be it.
And, yes, this is not a polling piece or a numbers piece, or "the reason you originally came to this site." All of those elements will still be here adding value, but there will also be some other types of pieces here. Like Nate's epic Lanny Davis takedown, or my perspective on Brian Schweitzer the other night. Both of us will still write about the numbers and the data, but that's not all we think about. This post won't help you learn whether Obama or McCain is likeliest to win Nevada, so don't bother pointing that out in comments.
As a Democrat and Obama supporter who has been horrified by some of what I have seen this year, I want to explain how I got to where I've gotten with Hillary Clinton, and explain what I think I need to hear to ever change my mind about her as a national candidate in my party. That matters in terms of strategy for what she says if she's thinking of 2012, because she has a lot of work cut out for her if that's an actual realistic intention. I may even be atypical in the force and depth of my thoughts on Hillary Clinton, but I suspect that atypicality has more to do with following the race more closely than it does the natural reactions to what I've witnessed. Even before the things that disturbed and offended me, she was only getting 29% and 3d place in Iowa. She has a LOT of obstacles to future viability.
My first impression of Hillary Clinton was I liked her. I shook her hand and came away impressed by her speech in 1992 when she came to Hanover to stump for Bill before the New Hampshire primary. She reminded me of my mom - an energetic, highly intelligent, unashamedly accomplished woman. That she didn't play the traditional window dressing role many women had played to male politician counterparts was a big plus for me. She was a role model for a new generation of working women. I admired her. And when she drew an absurdly over-the-top reaction from Bill's political enemies, it only gave me more resilience in liking and admiring her. If awful people hated her and expressed their hatred in irrational terms, I concluded, she could only be an even better person than I thought. So I dug in and defended her, countless times.
Richard Mellon Scaife, godfather of the "vast right-wing conspiracy," spent hundreds of millions of dollars to attack this woman, to produce writings and videos and fund the rise of individually groomed attack pundits whose #1 task was to aim at Hillary Rodham Clinton. Richard Mellon Scaife formed an entire cottage industry around smears, lies and hatred toward this woman. It was sick, it was out of proportion, it was offensive in the extreme.
During this campaign, Hillary Rodham Clinton went to Richard Mellon Scaife's little shitburg newspaper board and made friends with him in order to slam a fellow Democrat.
I will not be able to wrap my mind around that, for the rest of my life. It's the most breathtakingly cynical moment in this campaign season.
Now, the arrogance and entitlement annoyed me, but those aren't dealbreakers. Surrounding herself with sleazeballs like Mark Penn and Lanny Davis was unfortunate and spoke to her character also, but that was not a dealbreaker. Brazenly lying about Tuzla and all that was annoying and revelatory of character but still not a reason to be unwilling to forgive at a later date. The gas tax pander was a Vegas-class neon sign of non-leadership (even the shamefully shilling Krugman had to concede that one) but it was not a dealbreaker.
By time of the Scaife appearance, I had already had one dealbreaker: Hillary's responsibility, as her campaign's leader, to forcefully stamp out the race-baiting patterns of her surrogates, the carefully-phrased, plausible deniability moments of "I take him at his word," etc. The hard-working white people comment aimed at stressing racial divisions. Tepid, slow reaction to Geraldine Ferrarro. Pushing Wright. The failure to take a strong stand on Bill's comments in South Carolina, when the most apt example of winning South Carolina but losing the nomination so it's no big deal was John Edwards, the candidate who won SC in 2004 and did not get the nomination. Taking Bob Johnson "at his word" that he meant "community organizing" as the unmentionable youthful behavior. And so on and so forth with a parade of disgraces. It is insulting to pretend that she was - alack! - just the victim of an unbelievably unfortunate series of strokes of bad luck with all these moments. She's a smart cookie. You can't believe she's both a brilliant woman capable of leading the country and yet one too dull-edged to understand the patterns here and what they mean in context.
Let me be clear. I did not become a Democrat in a vacuum. Core values got me to this party. Speaking as a white man belonging to virtually every majority demographic this country has, I am a Democrat above all other reasons for the most fundamental principles and values of fairness and equality. That civil rights and equal rights have had to be fought and died for, that the notion that all people are created equal is even controversial... is mind-blowing. I knew those values by the time I was 4 years old. (The things you learn by kindergarten, indeed.)
I came to the Democratic Party at the most basic level because after 1964 and during my entire lifetime the Democrats were the party of civil rights and the Republicans were the Southern Strategy party, the one turning hatred and mistrust of Americans against each other into electoral advantage. Conservatives blocked women's rights. They backed their beloved Reagan as he went out of his way to refuse funding for AIDS research and prevention when the disease was in its incipiency when an aggressive education policy could have saved many lives of my fellow human beings. I don't need to be a gay man to know that is morally corrupt at the deepest level. Just a human being.
These values represent a moral bright line that make me a Democrat and not a Republican. They matter to me. One reason it was so easy to pour the personal energy of grueling hours and negligible pay into defeating Conrad Burns in 2006 was his racist tendencies. This value is no light thing for me.
I believe Hillary Clinton unacceptably violated that line with the way she ran her campaign. You have every right not to see it the same way, but I am telling you this because people like me are real, we exist, we feel fundamentally offended by the campaign she chose to run. We may not even be the majority of Obama supporters who hold Hillary Clinton liable, but we are at least a strong minority. We are very clear-minded on why we feel offended, and we are not overreacting.
So I was already done with her when the Richard Mellon Scaife thing happened. But when that happened, I came to see her as purely amoral. Not immoral, as when George Bush and gang set out to do harm and then go do it, for reasons that are internally logical for them and bring about results they fully intend. Amoral, as in: not attached to any moral principle that isn't completely negotiable if there is an obstacle in the way of what is wanted.
Richard. Mellon. Scaife.
And in this case what was wanted was the Presidency of the United States. Obama became the obstacle. In that context, the Scaife appearance and dogwhistling make perfect sense. It's not that Clinton is a racist or likes Scaife. It's that those behaviors are calculated to serve the ultimate purpose of The Getting of What is Wanted. It's a gamble that everything can be rehabilitated later with time healing wounds, but right now is when action has to be taken. It's not that she's a bad person. It's that she seems to have something missing that most people have that makes them attached to morality and values. You're born with what you're born with.
That's why the open discussion of one way of removing the obstacles in her path to the presidency included things like June assassinations, which have happened in the past. Had she dropped out earlier than the latest possible moment, she wouldn't be taking full advantage of every possible scenario that could still get her what she wanted. It made me feel a cold, sick horror and dread toward her, but it has a perfect internal logic if Obama is not a person, the feelings of his family and little girls are not real (or even publicly apologized for as of this very moment and counting), they are all objects. In the way.
You may be full of desire to tell me how terrible I am for observing all these things. That's ok. What matters only is that I reached my opinion honestly and that I'm not alone, and I am part of the Democratic Party, for those Clinton supporters who actually want to understand how someone like me could go from A to B in a thoughtful, values-based way. (Without the pathetic and self-demeaning charge of sexism, of course.) I used to feel empathy for this woman, and wanted to see her succeed even if at times only to spite her opponents. Now, I truly feel that she is a danger. To the extent I would feel motivated to work against her winning any future elections for any office anywhere in America, it is not a feeling of revenge, but rather a grim necessity out of fear of her having any power. It's a defense of integrity and love of country. And no way in a hundred million years could Obama ever feel comfortable with her on the ticket. That's insane risk-taking.
So, given that I am very clear on these things and am not alone (many, many Democrats have expressed similar reactions to her jawdroppingly amoral campaign), what could this woman say when she speaks today to ever begin changing my mind? It seems like an impossible task. But it's important, because I obviously moved a long, long way in my opinion on her, and when she launched her presidential bid in 2007, I was not in the 50% of the country who would never, ever consider voting for her. It's important because she has problems for a future bid if that number has swelled to include mainline Dems like me.
How could this person rehabilitate herself with the Democrats she's alienated?
I'll confess up front I don't think it's possible, at least with me. I believe that all the king's horses... well, you know. But there is a spectrum of disgust, and if I am too far to one end of that spectrum, there may be a point X along that spectrum of alienated folks she needs to reach.
This high-profile moment is important. All eyes are on her this morning. She needs to start the reconciliation now. She completely blew it on Tuesday, when she could have really done something. Not that I expected her to diverge from the soul-crushing path of denial and widely noticed non-generosity of spirit toward the presumptive nominee in her speech on Tuesday night (and said so in the liveblog here). And I don't expect her to say any of these things today. I have, shall we say, low expectations of what comes out of her mouth. And if she doesn't want to preserve future national ambitions, she needs to say none of it.
What could she say? Fundamentally, she would have to show she understands exactly why there's real, legitimate anger and apologize for her behavior. She could say that the political wars she has been through had convinced her that playing big time hardball was going to cost her with some Democrats in the short term but could be repaired in the long term. That becoming President was so important, when Obama's campaign out-strategized hers and she fell behind, she decided going for broke first and repairing any hurt feelings afterward was what she had to do.
She definitely needs to say that Obama ran a clean campaign while hers was down and dirty. She must stand her supporters down from their disappointment and anger by acknowledging this truth. She must cease stoking that emotion and giving her supporters implicit permission to toxically aim it at Obama and/or his supporters. It's ok if she says she learned in her experience that Americans don't mind dirt in their politics, it's ok if as a safe face-saving stance she still targets the media as not treating her campaign fairly, but she needs to tell her supporters that Obama took the high road, that his stances on Florida and Michigan were merely playing by the rules everyone agreed to.
And she must go into detail about why Obama is not an elitist, and why his rising from a very modest upbringing on his own merit makes "elitism" a sham of a charge that she deliberately fueled because she hoped it would help her win. The reason she needs to do this is she knows it to be true (just as she knows it to be true Obama is not a Muslim, not "as far as she knows"), and unless she openly talks about some of the things she said about him as products of an all-out genuine desire to win rather than because they're true, those things get left open for the coming general election.
She must treat us like adults and give us credit for knowing how the surrogate game works, and deeply apologize for the race-baiting dogwhistle comments. This is non-negotiable for mending the damage she's created between herself and Democrats like me. She should say any leader is responsible for the tenor of her campaign, and that there were many comments that she wishes she'd quashed, immediately stomped on, and that she apologizes even for putting out surrogates like the despicably craptastic Sean Wilentz blaming Obama for playing the race card.
For all these things, she should beg forgiveness. She needs to sound regretful. She should explain that words do matter, that words hold amazing power in the service of both good and ill, that they can divide people and call upon their worst fears and prejudices, and that this is the one thing she wishes she could go back and do over because that's not how she's lived her life before now. She can say this is not who she is in her heart, and that she has shed tears knowing so many people she formerly called friends have been hurt by her campaign's actions.
And absolutely, she must openly and publicly apologize to Obama and his family and his supporters for the assassination comments, and say that while she made those comments repeatedly and in no way wants harm to come to Barack Obama, that she wishes she could take the words back (that she used with aforethought multiple times) and apologize directly to Obama's children. That political assassination has hurt this country so grievously and that openly making those comments were the worst public comments of her lifetime. And just simply ask for forgiveness, even if it only comes in time. It is absolutely unacceptable that she not take responsibility for this, if she wants to speak to people like me.
Then she should say, as for the Richard Mellon Scaife thing, that was... well that was unacceptable. And that she knows nothing she could ever do or say can excuse that after all he did to force good faith Democrats to defend her against him. Again, she can ask directly for forgiveness, noting that she wanted something so bad she lost sight of her values and that she is determined to show us by her future deeds and leadership that this was out of character.
If she covers those bases, if she shows she understands why there has been such depth of adverse reaction to her campaign by many true Democrats, that it goes deeper than mere heat of the moment, those are the things that might make a successful future run realistic. She then has to go back to the Senate and dispense immediately with the violent video game, flag burning ban giant pandering don't-offend-anyone nothingness of non-leadership that has characterized her entire Senate career. Freed from fear of being in any way controversial, she can finally behave like she has nothing to lose and go for broke in pushing all the "Solutions for America" she has been talking about for months. It's a terrible burden to feel like the risk of losing even 1 vote means she's cooked for a general election nailbiter, always the best-case scenario. She's free now. As a friend pointed out to me, she could be the new post-1980 Kennedy if only she had it in her. Let her be a flagship leader on health care reform. Let her sponsor bills left and right that don't change the name of some building somewhere in the state of New York, but actually affect people.
What's my prediction about what will happen? Do I expect her to come anywhere close to any of this?
No. I expect she'll praise Obama, she'll acknowledge the passion and sincerity of his supporters. She'll thank her own supporters at length, recollect wistfully on her attempt, maybe try and gain sympathy with an "I tried so hard" awww moment. If she alludes to regret over hard feelings, it'll be brief and incomplete and not in any way go into showing she understands why real people came to real feelings by good faith. I don't think she's ready to come to grips with what-all went down here. I think she thinks the hard feelings are heat of the moment and will be forgotten by August. That would be terrible judgment.
Tragically, she doesn't seem to have caught on to the transformation I've described, or maybe just doesn't take it seriously and thinks four years is a lifetime in politics and everyone will forget, the only memory residue that she's "gritty." If she were to realize the truth of the matter, she knows that she already has her own base of support, and she could win so many of us back with an open confessional. Maybe she doesn't have to say all of these things, immediately, but in such a high-profile moment she needs to say many of them, particularly the apology to Obama's young girls and the emphasis on his clean campaigning as a way of standing her stoked-up base of voters down.
Of course, some of you in the comments are going to throw out the random Samantha Power comment (immediately fired, btw), or various this or that mailer you think was unfair. Obama openly acknowledges there were times when he felt he had to throw a punch back, and said so explicitly Tuesday night in St. Paul. But there can be no arguing who ran the kitchen sink, smear-by-association, dogwhistling, open assassination-ruminating campaign and who ran the high road campaign.
As I wrap up, I want to emphasize that from my perspective, it's been difficult watching many of the dealbreaker things go down and seeing her supporters stick with her. That's been bewildering and hurtful, just as I'm sure you feel hurt by what feels like Hillary Clinton being unappreciatedly forsaken by her party. We don't understand how your loyalty trumps the breaching of non-negotiable values, and you don't understand why we don't just remain loyal to someone whose character has seemingly long been established and about whom we shouldn't need to further question. Because it seems so irrational that many of us would opt for someone else, shamefully self-demeaning explanations like "it's a cult" (thanks for that hacktastic nugget, Krugman) or "it's sexism" are offered. For my part, I see an uncommon authenticity and wisdom in Barack Obama, and I see gifts no Democrat in my lifetime has brought to the table. That feeling he inspires in millions of my fellow Americans of wanting to engage in the bettering of America and in the lives of our communities is visceral and no joke. He'll be the Tipping Point President.
But I came to my opinions about Hillary Clinton in good faith, and I am capable of believing that most Clinton supporters have stuck with her in good faith as well. Once upon a time, I appreciated Hillary Clinton the way many of you still do appreciate her. I and the vast majority of my fellow Obama supporters went in with no agenda to dislike her, despite what you may be tempted to believe. Please understand that while at times we have felt outrage at your silence over things we perceived as unacceptable, we don't want to fight with you. I mourn the division. I mourn that one candidate began lobbing grenade after grenade in a kitchen sink strategy that hardened both sides. That isn't your fault. But that behavior was wrong, and it needs to be owned by the adult who chose to engage in it. The longer she waits to speak directly to harshly alienated, good faith Dems like me, the more distant her future nomination possibilities become.
Re-reading what I've written, if she did say most or all of those things I proposed for her, I'd openly post that I was wrong in my expectations of her, and I will guarantee you that you'd see a massive outpouring of appreciation from all corners. With such a speech admitting to such failures and deficiencies of behavior, she might think it was painful to have such a raw and open confessional. She might think she would be accused of weakness or attacked for openly admitting to hypocrisy, etc. But it would be human, and principled. Ironically, I think she would become beloved with such a speech. It is a natural human stance to want to forgive. But what happened here went deep, deeper than I suspect she realizes, and half-measures will absolutely not cut it.
I just don't think she has it in her. I'd love to be proved wrong.
6.07.2008
Rehabilitation for Herself: What Could Clinton Say?
by Sean Quinn @ 10:57 AM
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171 comments
Like Obama didn't play the race card. Puh-lease, they accused the Clintons of playing the race card just to sure up the black vote. The only thing Obama cares about is getting elected. He will SAY or DO anything.
And he is succeeding because there are naive people out there like you who buy into his dribble.
I'm sorry to see 538 go in this direction. For me, the excellent statistical analyses and projections are the value of this site. The internet is rife with editorial content - much by people who have strong opinions, few facts and a love of argument.
And I think an outcome will be to recruit cynical, data-free comments (see above) - diminishing the previously useful conversations here.
If the opinion pieces continue, one helpful enhancement would be to by-line the title of each posting.
Helluva contribution there, Brandon. Thanks.
Anyways...
Much of what Sean says goes just as well for me, but some differences.
I am not a Democrat. I like to think of myself as part of that small mass in the middle that has no use for partisan politics and looks to the individual to determine my vote. I came into this election season convinced of the evil of the Bush administration and convinced that the only way to correct the horrors of the last 7+ years was to elect a Democrat - ANY Democrat - over whoever the Republicans would choose to run. I was reconciled to to voting for Hillary this fall because her selection seemed inevitable. I didn't like it, didn't want to do it, but so no other viable course of action.
As the primary season went on I became more and more disgusted with what I saw coming from Hillary's campaign. By March 4th I was convinced that electing Hillary was NO different than electing George Bush. Here was a woman that would do or say anything to get what she wanted, to use the people that had harmed her, and to use the methods that had harmed her an her family solely to get what she wanted and to hell with princple. I was revolted and sickened.
In early March, just after the Texas and Ohio votes had failed to eliminate her, I cursed the people of those states and for the first time in my life registered as the member of a political party (closed primary in PA) solely to vote against Hillary Clinton.
Sean, thank you for the above post and saying what many like us have been thinking. But I can honestly say that there is nothing Hillary can do to change my opinion of her. I only hope that she can be shut out of the upcoming Obama administration, and relegated to a life of obscurity.
Political analysis posts without numbers belong on a separate part of the site that we can easily ignore.
Great post Sean. It does a good job of summing up why a lot of folks now feel the way they do, having no prior negative feelings for Clinton, and yet now perplexed at how far she fell during the campaign.
I would say one of the most important things she needs to do today, future considerations aside, is to talk her supporters down off the ledge. For me, that would go a long way in implicitly taking responsibility for a lot of the negative things she has said and done throughout.
I am amazed at the vitriol spewed at Obama by a portion of Clinton supporters still to this day. I understand part of it has to do with coming to grips with losing, but it seems there's a parallel universe in which Obama's evil twin has won the nomination. One who has lied and cheated and stolen the nomination through all sorts of nastiness. Frankly, I don't know where that comes from. I won't say Obama is perfect (he is a politician after all), but I, like you, have been inspired by how he runs his politics. It IS different. And it is change. I only hope that we can all come together and see that, and Clinton can put an entire party at ease today by starting down that path. Here's to hoping...
Wow... Thank you for this post. You said things in a way that I was thinking, but couldn't figure out how to say. On one level I am sad for Hillary, sad at what could have been. Back in February, I could of happily supported her if she was the nominee.
Once the Kitchen Sink strategy started, THAT is when I became anti-Hillary. And the more outrageous, the more angry I became. I don't know if she could say anything today that would change how I feel, and I don't want her on the ticket.
Grandma Jo
Thank you for saying this. Humility and contrition are Clinton's only route to redemption at this point.
Sean,
I agree with much of what you said, but I second (third) the opinion of Jack and Anon above that this could easily degrade the stimulating comments usually found on this site into random poo-flinging exercises exemplified by the first comment on this thread.
A sub-section titled 'editorial' or something of the like might help.
My cousin, a fifty something woman in Ohio, voted for Senator Clinton in the primary just weeks ago. Now she calls to rant about how she made a mistake. I don't think she could be won back.
Politics are about moments of opportunity. Senators Clinton, Obama and McCain know that. Her opportunity is now gone. She gave it everything she had because she assumed the conditions were best for her now. It became a one shot deal in part because her strategy included burning bridges. I don't think she could rebuild those bridges in time for another run.
Just echoing the comments above. I love the site, and I basically agree with everything in the post, but there are about a million shrill pure-opinion sites out there that I choose not to spend time visiting. I'd hate for this to be another one.
I'd also like to state that I think this kind of punditry detracts from the site.
This site is about polls and I come here to read opinions on the polls, not to read political opinions. And I'd like to read thoughts about the polls from people with the widest possible array of affiliations. Posting this kind of stuff on the front page will drive away everyone but the Obama supporters however, which would make this site less interesting.
I'm an Obama sympathiser myself btw .
Hillary should never ever have to "beg" forgiveness for fighting a good fight. Shame on you for saying that. Focus your ire on Bush, and beg Hillary to accept VP, other wise McCain will win. And, as you anticipated, stick to polling. We don't really want your opinion. We come here for data.
I have some sympathy for your views on the Clinton campaign, but the messages you outline above would be disastrous for Obama. Clinton needs to focus on bringing along her own supporters to get behind Obama enthusiastically. The sorts of messages she should give are not aimed at you but rather at her own supporters - see some examples at http://www.psandman.com/col/hillary.htm . This is for the good of Obama, not her - your messages would not help Obama much however much it would speak to the likes of you and me.
BTW, I agree there are plenty of other sites where this sort of post fits right in and it risks devaluing the objectivity of the model on the page. I'd rather read this sort of thing elsewhere.
What's really ruining this 538? It's not the people writing the posts, but the ones leaving the comments.
Sean and Nate, always keep in mind this is your site. I suggest you simply ignore those who would treat 538 like a public utility: "Just run the numbers, Poindexter, and keep your gob shut."
As a wise man once sang, You can't please everybody so you've got to please yourself.
I am an every day visitor to this website. I come here because it's a great one-stop shop for polls, numbers and predictions.
As someone else said, there are thousands and thousands of sites out there prepared to offer their opinion. This site offers me background to form my own - or at least it used to.
I would be very disappointed if this becomes a regular feature as it meddles with the purpose of the site.
Sean, how you can write! Thanks for giving voice with such depth and articulateness of what I feel and what I think many of us feel.
I like the political commentary on this site and generally read it. I go here for the sophisticated statistical analysis, but also greatly enjoy the level of qualitative analysis. Please keep it up!
Dunyazad
Nobody ever says "look how good that pickipocket is." When one is good enough at the craft, the craft seems to disappear. I'm glad Obama is that good at politics because we need him to win. He racialized the contest (e.g. Clinton crediting LBJ along with MLK was racist?) and made it pay off. Calling a politician at this level "clean" is naive and, thankfully for us Dems, inaccurate in this case. And I don't come to this site for opinion.
Nice article Sean. I am an independent and I am in favor of Obama. I really think that this country needs a change of direction from Republican direction, as 28 out of the last 40 years and 20 of the last 28 years we've had a Republican president.
I first hung my hat on John Edwards, but he did not last long. It took me a while, but very soon it was clear to me that Clinton was not playing fair and I migrated toward Obama.
Sean, I share many of your thoughts and who can forget when Mark Penn kept on bringing up drugs use and Edwards campaign chair slapped him down.
But Sean, while I share your thoughts, today is not the day to do what you said. Today is not the day for her to heal your (as an Obama supporter) wounds. She will have the next few years to do that, much like Ted Kennedy did after 1980. Today is for her to bring her followers along to see Obama, not as the caricature that she portrayed him, but as the candidate that he actually is.
Rememer Sean, today is not about you or Hillary or even Barrack, it is about the Democratic party coming together to move this country away from the direction that the Republicans have taken us.
Daniel M.
Great post. I share most of your feelings toward HRC, but don't consider myself much of a Democrat, and Richard Mellon Scaife does not mean much to me. HRC and Bill's amorality were demonstrated to me by the other things you wrote about.
To the other commenters who need additional help ignoring a commentary post that was clearly indicated to be a commentary post early on, take some responsibility to ignore the posts you don't want to read by yourself. I do not want to have to go to some separate page to read the commentary and a different page for statistical stuff.
I already ignore much of the statistical minutia. I don't agitate for its removal.
The purely "objective" stuff on this site is infused with subjective decisions anyway. Nate has written that "common sense" is a final check.
Thanks for the post. Hillary will not apologize, and I don't care. I will not vote for her for President, and I will not move to New York state.
Gold Star, it seems I inadvertently led the discourse this direction with my post yesterday. I never meant, "just shut up and crunch the numbers." Both the gentlemen are intelligent, insightful, and offer great editorial analysis of the race.
But what makes this place unique is its reliance on numbers. Numbers don't lie. There are innumerable other places online where we can find editorial bloggers voicing their opinions. That type of blogging lends itself to hundreds of partisan comments from readers both informed and otherwise. Personally, I'd hate to see 538 head that direction.
But in the end it's Nate's site and he calls the shots. I merely meant to offer a suggestion yesterday. I certainly didn't mean to insult Nate or his work, nor to incite a riot amongst his readers.
Pocket Nines,
This should be cross-posted on the purely subjective Daily Kos. But leave it (and other commentary) here.
Sean, great post. You've masterfully articulated how many of us feel.
To those complaining about punditry at 538: are you REALLY not bright enough to figure out from the title of this post that it's not going to be about data? Are you REALLY so insecure that you can't stand to see such titles without running away?
Here's what I love about 538: serious, scientifically valid, cleverly applied, empirically verified analysis of opinion data. That this has been missing from the vastly funded MSM is a travesty. For providing us this FOR FREE, Nate and Sean have earned every right to say whatever they feel like saying here. Those who would go away because they don't like it: please do.
Sean, I agree with you 100%. As far as I'm concerned, Clinton is public enemy #2 in the Democratic party after Joseph Lieberman. And to think I used to have such affection for her as a candidate. She has essentially run the campaign of a Republican this time around, and crossed too many lines. I'm at the point that, despite living across the country in California, I would probably contribute money to any Lamont-esque primary opposition she faced in her next senate bid.
That being said, I really don't think that pieces that are solely opinion-based and non-analytical should be included on the site. There is a difference between something like the czarina of recounts article, which is something novel and outlines a particular strategy, even if it doesn't bear numbers, and this article, which is something that has been covered dozens of times, if not quite so eloquently as what has been done here. I really would suggest moving this type of article to another part of the site.
As a foreigner who has only been following the race fairly casually from abroad, I find the depth of feeling from both sides of the Clinton/Obama argument slightly mysterious. It seems out of proportion to anything that has happened.
I guess it says something about the depth of emotional involvement supporters feel for these candidates, and it'll be interesting to see how everyone feels after a month to cool off.
Oh! Oh Hil'ry
now don't you cry to me,
We're movin on to Colorado
with Obama nominee.
Sean,
I'm glad you shared this piece. Your commitments should never lead you to hide or warp data, but those commitments will, without fail, shape what you find interesting and how you describe it. When the data makes you shift a commitment or say that something you support is in trouble, that will be especially interesting. And I can't know that's happening without having some sense of where you start from.
Now,about Senator Clinton. I think she simply has not been in full control of her own message. It's been a Team of Rivals without an incisive Lincoln making the final calls when it counts. That's why the message has been allowed to wobble so badly: she takes "change you can Xerox" from one person and "so honored to be here with Barack" from another and doesn't notice that you can't say both in the same hour. And the same way, she ends up bombing Iran, trashing economists, claiming white voters, and using RFK's murder as a reason to keep running.
In the long run, maybe by next February, I think she could indeed look back over what happened, see how it outraged others, and say some things that would make me glad she's in the Senate and maybe even willing go hear her speak. Maybe.
Today, no chance of that. She'll need sleep, and quiet, and a new idea of what she wants to get done.
What I find amazing about your list of Clinton's offensives is that it lacks large portions of what I'm pissed at her about.
1. The eternal spinning of losses. The "Big States", "Electoral Vote", "Caucuses don't count", "Red States don't count" etc. nonsense.
2. Her refusal to ever congratulate her opponent on a victory. Obama congratulated Clinton every single time he spoke after she won a state. Clinton did not on any occasion.
3. The utter lies from the Clinton camp on Obama's history and positions, specifically on abortion, as far back as New Hampshire and Iowa.
4. The Kitchen Sink strategy, which she began after it was clear to anyone who can count that Obama would win the nomination. Her denial of reality about her chances at that point reminded me more of Bush than I'd ever want to admit.
5. Her speech on Tuesday. I've heard arguments that after fighting for months she needed time to come to grips with her loss. Sorry, that's BS. She knew or should have known she'd lost after NC. And I can't recall the loser in a Presidential general election waiting to concede when the outcome was clear.
But the biggest one is that she, through her lies, spinning, and denial of reality, may have cost the Democrats the White House this year. If Obama loses in the fall, it's her fault. No question about it.
people please note, there is such a thing called freedom of speech, and you don't own a piece of this website, so the owners are free to do as they please, if you are more interested in stats/polls/electoral issues, then read those and skip the ones you don't want to read ... i am sure these are the same people that complain about things on TV instead of just switching the channel!!!
It can "detract from the site" if an opinion I express amounts to either opportunity cost or data bias. I didn't ignore something in order to post this - no opportunity cost. And nothing I said changes any of the numbers - no data bias.
None of the data disappeared. No other post had to be deleted to make room, I'm fairly certain. The vast majority of the posts will continue to be based on the numbers.
I noted that Clinton's concession speech was a Big Deal moment and signposted that what followed below the fold were my personal thoughts. Reading it and then complaining about getting what was advertised seems an exercise in petulance and a play for asserting control about the only things you're willing to read, or else.
You're going to get these kinds of things every once in awhile.
I don’t see any thing wrong with Sean’s “Opinion” piece. If you don’t like it, don’t read it. This argument reminds me of the Obama – Clinton fight, it is irrational. What some of you are missing is that because Sean doesn’t use numbers data to analyze his decision, is that he does use other type of data to make his decision. Her actions of going to Richard Mellon Scaife, her hiring of Mark Penn, the actions of her surrogates Lanny Davis and Geraldine Ferraro are examples of data he used in his analysis.
Everyone, remember that Nate does this for fun, he does have a full time job that keeps him busy. So this is a change election and this is a change site.
What has been great about this site is that most people give relevant reasons for what they feel and that is what Sean did, unlike Brandon who said Obama played the race card and didn’t back it up with any reasons.
Daniel M.
Oh well, the credibility of this site is on its way out.
Having a bombthrower like pocketnines doing stats based analysis is like relying on Sean Hannity's numerical analyses.
Remember Pocketnines' purported analysis on Dailykos predicting turnout in NC would be higher than PA -- he was trying to shout down Hillary supporters who were saying she had a shot at winning the popular vote. He was only off by about 65%!
Thanks, brilliant. I am new to this site but am enormously impressed. This is very well and thoughtfully stated. It's very sad. But the vision of newly elected President Barack Obama speaking to a crowd of millions at the Washington Monument (what other venue would hold everyone who will show up? and what other place would be more symbolically fitting?) gives hope and motivation that is impossible to diminish. Let's focus on the excitement and promise that the Obama campaign holds and work our hardest to make sure it happens.
Thanks for your website. I'll be back often.
I for one am impressed. Hillary got it exactly right. She couldn't have done it better. Kudos to her speechwriters. Perhaps they can get a job with McCain's team...he certainly needs the help.
Heidi, what part of Montana are you from?
Sean,
Really nice piece.
I was in DC before and during impeachment working as a researcher at a large liberal org. I spent 6 YEARS monitoring and writing about the "Vast Right Wing Conspiracy" professionally. I even wrote a report on Scaife's propping up of all of the rabid right-wing anti-Clinton hysterics.
So Hillary's meeting with Dick Scaife and his right-wing rag was my turning point too. Up until that point I was one of those either-one-of-them-will-do-just-fine folks. I honestly didn't have a preference at that point, I thought they both had interesting strengths and weaknesses.
So when Hillary had a friendly meeting with Scaife the scales fell from my eyes. After YEARS of viewing the both Clintons as victims of well-funded unhinged right-wing hate I suddenly saw a little of what they saw-- someone without any scruples. Someone whose quest for power knew no bounds. Someone who didn't care about what she had to do, just as long as she wins.
At that moment Hillary reached out to the right-wing to help her defeat a fellow member of her own party. She reached out to the very person who supposdly is only being nice to her because his soon-to-be ex-wife is an Obama supporter. Clinton didn't care. As far as I was concerend she knowingly reached out to the devil for support. A profound sense of disgust replaced the respect I had for her.
Suddenly all of Obama's talk about a different kind of politics really hit home. Trust me, DC needs NEW and it needs someone with vision. Someone who isn't steeped in keeping it what it has become-- a dirty crony cesspool.
Is Obama perfect? Hell no. Is he a bit green? Yes. Is that what DC needs? Yes. Because being outside the beltway means he doesn't have years and years of cronies to pay back. He will have far more freedom than Hillary to pick the right people for important positions.
I don't think I could ever support either of the Clintons again. They both have fallen too far in my eyes in this campaign. I met them both once and liked and respected them both. I hope one day I will have fond feelings for them again. Right now I'm not so sure.
Correcting the record: Pocketnines (Sean) did not post a "purported analysis on Dailykos predicting turnout in NC would be higher than PA". His post there was in fact "a straightforward analysis of what it will take [for Obama] to regain 214,224 votes." (Emphasis added.) Anyone who cares can read the original post:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/5/5/125012/7952/90/509437
To use one of the bad analogies that so often infect politics: The bases were loaded, there was a full count, and the pitch was high and inside. The ball was last seen bouncing through the parking lot.
Hillary Clinton gave the best speech of her life, and I say that as someone who switched from her to Obama in mid-March. I was very, very impressed by what she said and how she said it.
I can't imagine how she could have done a better job. I especially appreciated her words about not looking back but looking forward. Bingo, Senator Clinton!
Now let's go kick John McBush and the Republican Party up one side of the block and back down the other.
Sean, what did you think of the speech Hillary actually gave? I was rather stunned at the way it began -- almost the same script as her speech on Tuesday night -- and the way she kept talking about herself and the accomplishments of her campaign throughout the speech.
She made the case for electing a Democrat, but not specifically for electing Barack Obama. She needed to extol Obama and explain to her supporters why *he* -- not some generic Demomcrat -- will make a superb President. She didn't. I didn't expect much from her speech, but I think on balance it was worse than I expected.
Dunyazad
Anonymous/Dunyazad,
As an Obama volunteer for the past eighteen months, I respectfully disagree. Her speech was one of the finest of this entire presidential race. She couldn't have done better. It was brilliant.
From here, it sounded like a speech about how there's an invisible glass ceiling (that she's now "cracked") that robbed her of the nomination. This is particularly funny and inappropriate in light of who DID get the election, but nevertheless the speech sounded like "I, and all women, have been robbed of this historic opportunity, but this Obama guy is better than the alternative so lets suck it up and support him."
She made the case for electing a Democrat, but not specifically for electing Barack Obama. She needed to extol Obama and explain to her supporters why *he* -- not some generic Demomcrat -- will make a superb President. She didn't.
What a bunch of crap. Look, she just finished a campaign that ended in a popular vote tie, and damn near a tie in delegates. Within the Democratic Party, she is just as popular as he is.
She lost the nomination contest, but it's just stupid to have expected her to throw all of her success away. If she had done it, she'd have angered her supporters and failed to add anything of value to the Obama candidacy.
As for not endorsing Obama himself, I guess you didn't bother to listen to her. She repeatedly endorsed him. Used two of his campaign slogans. Recited his biography. Praised his campaign.
She gave an very effective speech. It was probably the best concession speech I've ever heard. Holy Christ, are the crazed Obamacultists out there going to take yes for an answer? I will, and I sure as hope others will too.
"Surrounding herself with sleazeballs like Mark Penn and Lanny Davis was unfortunate and spoke to her character also."
Uh, wow. And you support Obama who surrounds himself with Rev. Wright, Tony Rezko, Fr. Pfleger, William Ayers, and Nadhmi Auchi? Okay...
Avo
You looked at the wrong diary -- that one was after PA.
Before PA, he predicted PA turnout in NC at 1.57 million and turnout in significantly larger PA at 1.54 million.
here's the link
pn diary
Bill B to Sean: What a wonderful epiphany. My first question is, what took you so long, the Clinton's have been around nearly two decades. The question that begs to be asked of you and many Democrats is why didn't you condemn their amoral behavior earlier, or does your own moral compasses only point North when people disagree with you? I especially like your conclusions regarding Hillary's compromising her integrity regarding
Richard Mellon Scaife in order to reach her desired goal. Why is this any different than Obama compromising his integrity with Reverend Wright, Father Pfleger, Ayers, Rezko, and Faraghan, to reach his goal? Sean your problem is you are looking for a Messiah, and once you believe you have found one, because you have already concluded they are the Messiah, you see no evil, hear no evil, and believe they say no evil. There has never been a Messiah running for president. Nothing has changed, since Bill Clinton first showed up as your Messiah, including you. Obama is no Messiah, he is just a man who can preach, (Hope, Faith, You can, etc.)like one. He has all the warts and failings that anyone in a quest for power has. He shares one thing with Hillary, he rationalizes his behavior because he believes his goal is a worthy one. I would suggest you take a cold shower and attempt a return to reality. Not even with the long winded tirade you just typed have you convinced me that you are able to completely disengage your brain from that reality. I am unwilling to reach the conclusion that you have accomplished this because than you would be no different than Hillary and Obama are.
To add something:
A fair number of her supporters don't like Obama. There are a variety of reasons for that, and I can sympathize with some of them. Even though I switched my support to Obama, the hipster/fan-girl element of his support leaves me cold. I'm an adult, and frankly the 24-year-olds who at times would seem to dominate the Obama crowd make me want to stick my finger down my throat.
I support Obama in spite of those people. I think he's intelligent, a good Democrat on the issues, cool under pressure, and is conversant with the details. My decision to abandon her was based on her race-baiting; my decision to support him was an outgrowth of distanced thinking.
Dunyazad is offended that Clinton appealed not to the fainting fan girls who'd long since supported Obama, but largely (though not coldly) to the practical side, warning of the consequences of electing another Republican.
Huh? What in hell is wrong with that? Clinton did praise Obama personally in several points in her speech, but she also sought to persuade her supporters by employing appeals to logic and pragmatism. Had she not done so, her speech would have been less effective.
Anyone offended by Clinton's speech ism, for whatever reason, looking for a reason to be offended.
Sean your problem is you are looking for a Messiah, and once you believe you have found one, because you have already concluded they are the Messiah, you see no evil, hear no evil, and believe they say no evil. There has never been a Messiah running for president. Nothing has changed, since Bill Clinton first showed up as your Messiah, including you. Obama is no Messiah, he is just a man who can preach
I think I'll be more inclined to believe you when you also give us a denunciation of Saint Ronald Reagan, the blowhard to end all blowhards.
Bill B. to Pluckhahn. I thought my statement saying :"There has never been a Messiah running for president",covered all presidents. If you are asking for specifics, I would include Reagan, Bush, who I have always thought was wormy, and Newt Gingrich who is smart, but like Clinton, has zipper problems. I have voted Republican but would vote Democratic in a heartbeat if they selected candidates like Sam Nunn, instead of the McGoverns, Mondales and Dukakis. My only consideration in voting is, I will not compromise my integrity and vote for anyone who promotes themselves as the Messiah. I can no longer rationalize voting for anyone who campaigns using "fairy tales" as their stump speech.
Sean,
1. While I appreciate your commentaries, I hope strong opinion pieces like this one are a rarity on 538. There are lots of places on the internet for strong partisan argument but nothing I've found like the polling and demographic analysis here. While you certainly give fair warning and I can skip reading it, pieces like yours attract keyboard warriors to the site and can poison comments on all other posts. As a long time reader of 538, I've already noticed much more acrimony in the comments on this site recently than when it first began. I hope this downward slide in the comments does not continue, but the tone must be set from the top.
2. I suspect you're in a much smaller segment of the Democratic party than you realize. Very few people are engaged as much as the typical blog poster is, much less as much as you are. Immersion can create warp perception. Just looking at exit polls, more
Democrats would support Clinton than Obama in the general election. As a practical matter, Clinton would be foolish to do any of the things you suggest, as she would lose much more support than she could possibly gain from people like you. Besides, just as I suspect most of Clinton's Obama haters will eventually come around as we fight the common enemy, I also suspect most of Obama's Clinton haters will also come around as long as she fully supports Obama. That's all she needs to do to ensure her continued strong standing in the Democratic party. It may not win you over, but she'll never please 100% of the people.
3. I'm do not have a good opinion of Clinton, but not nearly as negative as yours. I'd still vote for her if she were the Democratic nominee in 2012, although I'd be inclined to support someone else in the primary. Just curious Sean, are you prepared to admit that Richard Mellon Scaife and Rush Limbaugh were right in 1992 and you were wrong? They were a better judge of character than you were? If you were so so wrong about the Clintons in 1992, then perhaps you should consider whether you're letting your feelings get the best of you now since you're such a strong Obama supporter? If that doesn't get you thinking you may be too hard on Hillary, then she perhaps she really is too far gone to ever be rehabilitated for you.
4. Any way to list the author of posts up front?
Well, Bill B., I think the operative phrase in your posting was, "I have voted Republican." Face it, the only Democrat who will satisfy you is someone who's not really a Democrat. Thankfully, my side is not going to satisfy you this year, and we're going to kick ass anyway.
It's interesting to watch people not want to call themselves Republicans this year. Brings a smile to my face. If this keeps happening, maybe I'll have to alter my usual quip about how the only creatures incapable of being embarrassed are dogs and Republicans.
Wow sean... I sorta agree with you that she's violated core progressive values over the course of the campaign. However, I think your demands are a bit extreme. And I'm a movement progressive who's followed the election as close as anyone. For her to rehabilitate my image of her, I'd want:
1. True repentance.
2. At least private apology to Obama (mind you, I have know clue how I'd know...)
3. A sincere public effort to win back her hardline supporters to support not just Obama, but the progressive movement in general.
#3 in particular might be incompatible with your "public apology" requirement.
Furthermore, She still ranks higher in my mind than say, Romney. That Amoral scourge makes me ashamed to be from Massachusetts. I'd probably still vote for her in a general election against most Republicans, too, but I think I'm a bit more of a pragmatist than you. My current read on her is similar to yours (no non-negotiable values), but I feel that her political self-interest still puts her in support of progressive legislation more often than not.
Bill B., the Republican, does have a point when he complains about the messianic nature of the Obama campaign. This is politics, not a religious movement. Hillary Clinton has no obligation to deliver a confession of her sins. Some members of the Obamacult really need to grow up.
Bill B. to Pluckhan. I said I have voted Republican, I didn't say I always vote Republican. It certainly is refreshing to find someone like you who can define what a real Democrat is, but then I have already said I don't believe in "fairy tales". Are you sure your mommy knows you are playing with her computer?
So if she dons sackcloth and ashes, repenting of her inherently vile nature, you might begin to change your opinion of her? Mmmmm, big of you. Stay classy, hater!
Bill B., here's the deal. You are going to vote for McBush this year. You know it, and I know it, and anyone else who reads this thread knows it.
You'll do this because you're a Republican. It's a sad thing for you to be a Republican, but only you can fix your disease. It's like giving up booze or cigs. You can do it, but only you can do it.
Don't blame others for your bad habits and personal tragedies. The Democrats didn't make you a Republican. You did that. To change, you must first accept personal responsibility.
"You're going to get these kinds of things every once in awhile."
Speaking as someone who does not disagree with your analysis in the original post, let me nevertheless say "we don't want them." Like others have said, there are a ton of websites for punditry, there are very few for sober statistical analysis and interpretation. I come to this site because it's the latter, if it becomes the former, I'll head to greener pastures.
Bill B and Charles P, please explain to me where the Obama campaign itself has been messianic in nature. Please give me specifics, not feelings.
Daniel M
The deal breaker for me, personally, was this:
http://clinton.senate.gov/speeches/iraq_101002.html
Her vote to authorize the use of force was the prism through which I examined her every subsequent statement and action.
Now with the aid of hindsight, take a look at her statement: "[Saddam] has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members, though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001."
Note one word in particular: "Apparently."
Sounds a little like, "as far as I know." Doesn't it?
She's never apologized to the thousands of American troops - let alone the uncounted Iraqi civilians - whose deaths were enabled by her political calculation. So we should have no expectation that she'd apologize to Senator Obama or his family. Or the supporters she bilked out of tens of millions of dollars months after her defeat became imminent.
There is one powerful lesson we can all take from Senator Clinton's historic (and now, thankfully, historical) campaign: The ends do not justify the means. Now that Hillary Clinton has failed to reach her desired end, her means is her end. What a sad legacy.
All that being said, I hope she gives up her ambition to climb to any higher office and finds contentment as a New York Senator. She may yet become a great lioness of the Senate and use her powers for good rather than evil. Her speech today is a good, albeit small, first step.
Sean,
While I may find agree with your analysis and find it interesting, that is not why I read this website. "Fun with numbers" is what i'm looking for on 538.com and it dilutes your specialty to include this type of commentary.
Bill B and Charles P, please explain to me where the Obama campaign itself has been messianic in nature. Please give me specifics, not feelings.
All political campaigns have a touch of the messianic. It's the nature of the beast; you need to generate a level of enthusiasm that's not matched by the realities. Anyone who can't reconcile themselves to this will always be put off by politics.
That said, it's a sliding scale, with perhaps Gerald Ford and Walter Mondale at one end and Ronald Reagan and Barack Obama at the other end.
Obama's policies are standard-issue Democratic, and his management style is cool and unflappable. That, plus his intelligence, is why I support him. But his rhetoric is messianic enough to cause college girls to faint in mid-speech, and to send the Daily Kos into narrow-band orgasms of self-righteous glory.
Mostly it's amusing, but at times it's irritating. Your call for specificity is foolish, and you know it. If you don't see Obama's messianic appeal, then you've never listened to a rock 'n roll song, either.
Bill to Pluckhahn. TOP!!! Daniel M bottom!!!
Maybe I should address you as Dr. Pluckhahn. That's quite a feat you believe you just accomplished, a free psychiatric analysis based only on a couple of posts in a blog. You sound much like the "Mad Hatter", in the fairy tale. Are you now participating in "Alice in 538". I voted for John McCain and against Bush in the 2000 primary. You really seem to be quite delusional. There is as much difference between McCain and Bush as there is between Lieberman and Obama, but Obama and Clinton are two of a kind. You are just a little slow like Sean. I believe the correct political speak is "mentally challenged", in your case, of course it could be because you haven't reached maturity. It is not uncommon for posters like yourself to resort to analyzing your opponent, it almost always happens if anyone is attempting to defend nonsense.You sure your mommy knows you are on her computer?
Bill to Daniel M. The use of platitudes as a substitute for substance is a clear indication someone is running as a Messiah. I especially like his claims to be able to work across party lines. He has been a Senator for almost 4 years now, but he can't give an example. "PLATITUDES" "you can, you have to have hope" "Just have faith" "trust me" "We shall do this together". These are messages you hear from the pulpit, and are appropriate there. They are not appropriate as part of a stump speech unless your intention is to promote inspiration, but again that is the message of a Messiah.
Sean, Always enjoyed your Dkos work, and glad to see you have found a home here. Amazing piece. You've set all my general feelings about the Hillary campaign into one formidably detailed argument. You speak for me, only with vastly more nuance and detail. Please keep it up.
To those stating a disinclination to read this type of insightful commentary her at a `hard-data' site, feel free to abstain. Who's forcing you?
While I feel a lot of the same things Sean does, he is 100% wrong about what needed to be the content of Clinton's speech. As far as I can tell (I didn't watch it yet), it accomplished the things it needed to do.
If she had gone in Sean's direction, she would have essentially been telling all of her supporters that she was wrong, and that they were wrong to support her. That's 100% not what needed to be done here, and would've likely pissed off her supporters more than unified them to support Obama. This speech wasn't for people like Sean, it was for her supporters. She needed to unequivocally say to her supporters that they should support Barack Obama, and that's what she did.
Bill B., I believe the first step is to admit that you are powerless in the face of your Republican addiction, and that your life has become unmanageable as a result.
As an African-American who used to like the Clintons I agree wholeheartedly. Though I never expected her to apologize as that street is one-way and she'd never admit that was where they headed (see Andrews re: Jews/African-Americans). Once she traveled down that path and decided to court the racist white vote (started way back in 2007 through her subordinates) she wasn't going to be able to recover.
Today she did what a politician would do but even then she had to play like she was the victim of the glass-ceiling when nothing could be further from the truth.
I liked but did not love the Clintons (too conservative for me) but my SO loved them all and was going to vote for Clinton. She's extraordinarily disappointed in them all now and wouldn't have voted for Sen. Clinton if she got the nomination unless it meant J. Mac was going to win. But we don't live in a swing-state so she wasn't going to have to compromise.
Bill: "I especially like his claims to be able to work across party lines. He has been a Senator for almost 4 years now, but he can't give an example. "PLATITUDES" "you can, you have to have hope" "Just have faith" "trust me" "We shall do this together". These are messages you hear from the pulpit, and are appropriate there. They are not appropriate as part of a stump speech unless your intention is to promote inspiration, but again that is the message of a Messiah."
See, this is the thing I despise about the people who claim Obama's supporters are a cult. They clearly have never actually listened to Obama's stump speech and aren't at all familiar with his record. It's been my experience that they can typically point to far more specific policy points they are in favor of than either Clinton or McCain supporters.
Of course Obama can point to examples of working across party lines. He's worked with Hagel, Coburn, and Luger on notable bills, and that's just what I can think of off the top of my head.
As far as your quoted non-quotes, the only one that remotely sounds like Obama is the last one "We can do this together." His actual stump speeches are chockful of policy plans. This idea that there's nothing there is just dumb.
See, this is the thing I despise about the people who claim Obama's supporters are a cult. They clearly have never actually listened to Obama's stump speech and aren't at all familiar with his record. It's been my experience that they can typically point to far more specific policy points they are in favor of than either Clinton or McCain supporters.
Obama himself is fine. Actually better than just "fine." But let's face it, a lot of his supporters think he walks on water. At times it's quaint. At other times it's amusing. At other times it's irritating. But at least they'll vote for him, and let's hope their enthusiasm is infectious rather than offputting. We'll see, huh?
First off, Sean, superb piece. You summed up the position of Obama supporters like myself so well.
After reading your article, I went and read the text of Senator Clinton's speech this morning. She didn't do what you listed; she didn't make that speech to win back the people who have been alienated by her Machiavellian moral flexibility. She made that speech to win the support of HER supporters FOR Barack Obama. I can't truly judge the speech because I'm not part of the target audience, but it has improved my opinion of her that she realized who and what she needed to address for the good of the country over her personal ambition.
Bill to Pluckhahn: You are repeating yourself. It's obviously past your "NAPTIME" Does your mommy still tuck you in?
Seventeen million Hillary Clinton voters would like to tell you to shove it up your ass.
Charles Pluckhahn-
"But let's face it, a lot of his supporters think he walks on water."
And the same could be said probably just as much about Clinton, what, with prominent pro-Clinton sites calling her a "Sun Goddess" or something to that effect.
And even less extreme than that, a lot of her supporters absolutely felt a feminist obligation to support her, and many of those supposed feminists are now prepared to vote for McCain because they feel that Obama stole the nomination from her simply because she's a woman.
Let's not pretend that both camps didn't have their fair share of "messiah-worship" for their leader.
Bill to Neek: It's obvious you know very little about the Senate. Cobern, Lugar, and Hagel work across party lines. They often vote against the Republicans and with the Democrats. That is truly working across party lines. Give me just one example where Obama voted against his own party and with the Republicans. As for Obamas policys. We are going to stop Global warming is not a policy. We are going to stop rising oil prices is not a policy. We are going to protect the environment is not a policy. We are going to make sure everyone has health care is not a policy. We are going to fix Social Security is not a Policy. We are going to restore jobs is not a policy. We are going to make sure everyone has an opportunity to go to college is not a policy. We are going to get the troops out of Irag in six months is not a policy. We are going to meet with Ahminejad, Chaves and Castro and everyone can sit around the campfire and sing Kambaya, is not a policy. We are going to protect Israel is not a policy. We are going to stop Iran from getting a nuclear weapon is not a policy. It only becomes policy if you propose a workable plan that will accomplish all of the above in a Partisan Congress, and your actions will be supported by the voters.
I think that Sean's post is just fine on this site - because he is one of the author's of this site and is entitled to post on it.
I am as clearheaded as he on my stance on Hillary. However, I have been since 1990s an ABC (Anybody But Clinton) voter. I have always despised her mendacity and warped hold onto Bill's power in lieu of her own that consistently usurped true icons of feminism and power.
So, I get it that we, like Sean, are a minority. But, we do exist and nothing in her campaign served to change those of us who were, and will always be, ABC voters.
Jane
I like the added dimension Sean brings to this site and I think this was his best piece yet.
I forgive Clinton, but I will never forget and nothing she said today dissuaded me from the 2012 theory. I predicted for months that she would concede shortly after Tuesday, because to do otherwise would've been bad for her. She'll be one of Obama's best campaigners, because she needs to be to repair her reputation.
If she does run again in 2012 or 2016, I don't rule out supporting her. As always, it comes down to who is worse. There are many politicians who are and will be far worse than her.
I agree very much with the first poster. Nate has done a terrific job of building this into a first class electoral analysis site. Why turn it into a Daily Kos wannabe site of miscellaneous commentary? There are hundreds of blogs where this kind of opinion piece would be appropriate. I don't find it to be appropriate here.
Count me as one of the independents who agrees with your analysis.
Both Democrats and Republicans can be divided into two camps - the self-interested, power-hungry, unprincipled, do-whatever-cynical-thing-it-takes, partisan whores, and the people who are not saints but do have the country's best interest at heart and truly want to serve.
I misclassified Bush in 2000 so I realize my judgement is far from perfect. But at this time, from all I have read, seen, and experience, there is a huge difference between Obama and Hillary and you have pegged Hillary for sure.
It remains to be seen whether Obama is truly as good as we hope, and whether his dubious ties to dubious people are truly serious problems or merely the result of Barack's quest to engage all sides of the racial, economic and political divisions operating in this country.
There is a world of difference between Obama and Clinton, and it's good to see that some Democrats at least are aware enough to notice.
I agree with your critique of Clinton, but when you turn from the critique to proposals for the future (opposing Hillary Clinton in future elections and hoping for contrition from her) I think some wider and deeper perspective would be better.
Hillary Clinton's politics are mixture of things, made up not only by herself and what she wants, but also by the people who voted for her. Hillary is amoral and power-seeking in ways that I find dangerous (i.e., I agree with your critique). But looking at Hillary's campaign as a broader phenomena opens a wider view - a wider view that includes racism and the use of gender grievances in questionable ways, to be sure, but it also included gender and class issues (and grievances) that are not only real (in the sense Obama invoked regarding the Rev Wright affair), but also legitimate.
The best way to take race and gender cards (in the pejorative sense) off the table is to address the fundamental issues of sexism and racism, and class and constitutionalism and war and habeus corpus and all the rest, too.
It does not matter that Obama's campaign, although not perfect, had the cleanest hands of any presidential campaign in history. Obama didn't play the gender card, nor did he play the race card, but sexism is still real and Clinton's campaign faced it from the country if not from the Obama campaign.
Obama was wise and brave to treat Clinton's offenisve acts with a deep sense of security and optimism - braver and more thick skinned than I am or could ever hope to be. I think there is a lesson in that for how we now approach the continuing career of Hillary Clinton.
As Lincoln said, we act with malice towards none, and charity to all. Hillary Clinton and her campaign need to be understood in context, which is true of all of us. Hilllary Clinton stands symbolically for overlapping things that appear differently to different people. Those of us who abhor the dangers of her amorality (the Iraq War vote and playing with white racism) must also reckon with what Hillary Clinton stands for in relation to the goals of gender equality and the political voice of some segments of working class America.
In rekecting amorality we need not also reject nuance.
Found you via Anrew Sullivan's site. This is an excellent post. One observation that really hits home for me is the one about Obama and his family being "all objects. In the way." The inability to empathize with others, to see them only in relation to one's own ambitions and needs, is a mark of the true sociopath. I don't think it's going too far to see Clinton as having waged a sociopathic campaign. Why more people don't see it puzzles me.
Hillary didn't apologize to ME personally for MY hurt feelings! BOOO HOOO!
Get over it babies. Obama has. And ignore the black helicopters hovering over Andrew Sullivan's blog. He is a self absorbed whiny piss ant who does not care about the Democratic party. But you should.
Sean, I appreciate your thoughts. It's important for the Clinton people to "let go" of their grievances, and those of us in the Obama camp also have to "let go"--which "ain't easy" for many of the reason's you've cited. I encourage you to continue to voice your thoughts. If I don't like what I'm reading, it's easy to handle. I just quit reading it. There's no reason it shouldn't go on your site. Carol
P.S. I love the great stats, too!
I'm also disappointed the site is going in this direction. This has nothing to do with my agreement/disagreement with the actual viewpoints or political affiliations expressed in the post above. Instead, I fear that seeing these sorts of posts could be a reason for those at the other end of the political spectrum to marginalize this site and the data contained on it.
The data presented on this site has been ground-breaking. Nate has done a fantastic job of building this site and gaining recognition for his work. While his political leanings are well-known, this site came across as rather neutral until Sean's post. The site had gained the attention of a lot of people on the blogosphere, both on the left and the right.
Now, I fear, this could be an excuse for some to trivialize the site. Even if the data presented is perfectly objective and unbiased, those on the right may be less-inclined to take the site seriously, particularly if the data points to something unfavorable for the Republicans. Posts like this could, unfairly, call into question the validity of the data.
This is your site and you guys are entitled to post whatever you like, but in my opinion it's a mistake to go in this direction and I would hope the two of you reconsider. I would like to see this site grow and continue to gain recognition for the work done here, but I don't think that posts like the one above are going to be conducive to those efforts. These posts would be best left on a separate site.
Just my $0.02. Take it for whatever it's worth in your preferred currency.
Let's not pretend that both camps didn't have their fair share of "messiah-worship" for their leader.
I agree with you about that. It was especially true with Clinton after Super Tuesday. As much as I like to scoff at enthusiasm, it's the oxygen of a successful campaign. It raises everyone's blood pressure, and in the right circumstances it sharpens a candidate's mind.
To be sure, enthusiasm (which is really what we're talking about here) is a classic double-edged sword. I bailed on Clinton in mid-March when it seemed clear to me that she was "going tribal" to generate enthusiasm.
Yet, at the same time, I must grudgingly acknowledge that she became a better campaigner after that point. As much as it bothered me, she was not all wrong in pointing out that Obama was failing to reach important elements of the Democratic coalition. I didn't like her language, but I give her a certain amount of credit for her candor.
She didn't hide behind smarmy code words after March like she had been doing up to the point where I bailed out. In April and May, she put the turd right out there on the table and said Obama has a problem with whites, the elderly, and women.
I bitched about it along with everyone else who supported Obama, but, like I say, she had a point. Let's hope Obama and his people aren't too proud of themselves to take heed.
Let's remember that these people are not machines. They are human beings with strengths and weaknesses, and those traits tend to be magnified in their campaigns. You can support someone while noting their flaws, and you can oppose someone while noting their strengths. Life is not an on/off switch.
Obama's weaknesses are his aloofness and a certain amount of liberal reformer smugness: Everyone else's shit stinks but his. The saving grace is that Obama seems to understand, at least at some level, that he's vulnerable on that score. I'd like it if the fan-girls who surround him wouldn't be to goddamned defensive whenever they encounter a critique, but in the final analysis I can look past his crowds and watch what he says and does.
When you do that, you see an adult at work. I find that reassuring, because if the last seven years teaches us a single thing, it ought to teach us that the presidency is no place for an overgrown child regardless of that child's particular style or viewpoints. Obama is a smart guy, a cool hand and a great Democrat. I wish he had about 10 more years in the Senate, but maybe the relative inexperience won't be the worst thing in the world.
By the way: To the site owner here, I'd say that a comment thread like this one is okay from time to time, but don't turn it into the Daily Kos. A couple of these threads go a long way.
I am not sure how you conclude that someone who lacks empathy -- the very definition of a sociopath -- is not a bad person. That is exactly what makes someone a bad person. It is a characteristic that HRC shares with George W. Bush, and it is the reason we should all be very relieved that she is no longer running for president.
I think you sum it up well.
There were faults on both sides in this primary, to be sure. But, in broad strokes, one side ran a divisive campaign and the other an inclusive one. Frankly, I don't quite get the indignation Clinton supporters feel towards Obama (over and above the loss one feels at investing time and passion in a cause that ultimately didn't bear the fruit you hoped).
Ignore the naysayers - while numbers are the core of the site, other observations are useful too (like your posting on Schwitzer).
(Though I'm not sure he'll be picked of Strickland/ Webb/ Sibelius et al).
Harry, you are not alone. I am an American living in Europe and I also travel to Asia a lot. Not a single foreigner I have spoken to understands how HRC's personality plays into things, or even what her and her husband's personalities are. Part of it is that Europeans have come to be ultra-cynical about their politicians, so that they find the notion of trying to elect an honest person to office incredibly naive (and therefore, moral-sounding criticisms of the Clintons' approach to politics irrelevant). The rest I think can be chalked up to the rosy impression all foreigners seem to have of the Bill Clinton years and their not having had to endure (as we Americans did) 8 years of the Clintons' self-absorbed melodrama played on TV 24 hours a day.
The thought of the Clintons getting into the White House again is ghastly. If you look at Republicans and Independents along with the significant minority of Democrats who feel this way, it is a view held by the vast majority of Americans, and I think for very good reason. Morality and honesty certainly do play a role in how the U.S. President handles the immense responsibilities of his or her office. In those departments, we are far, far better off with Obama.
I actually enjoyed your commentary -- perhaps because your feelings about Hillary correspond to a lot of mine about the Republicans! -- but those lamenting the "change in direction" make some salient points, especially about filtering participation in the site to only a pro-Obama camp.
I see no reason why both constituencies can't have their needs met, though. Maybe Blogger doesn't make this easy, but you really need to have separate URLs for "poll stuff only" and for "poll stuff and commentary."
If Blogger can't accomodate that, you could find blogging software that will. However, I don't even think WordPress always handles this sort of issue the way I'd like. As a stopgap, I guess you could direct http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/ to a tag for "polls" posts and http://commentary.fivethirtyeight.com/ to a tag for "commentary" posts.
Anyway, mostly I just wanted to speak up as someone who did appreciate this post, since there appears to be a tide of people who don't agree.
You expressed eloquently the feelings I have about the Clintons. I am quite terrified that Obama will pick her as a VP OR that he will lose and she will run again in 2012. I didn't expect her to apologize in this speech, and I thought her speech was full of herself as usual. I am just relieved to have her out of my eyesight day after day. I hope the speech did what we wanted for her supporters -- give them some space and time to begin to support obama.
Sean, you nailed it. That's exactly right, exactly what I've been feeling, and I'm a 50-year-old white woman who was initially torn between Obama and Hillary Clinton. But she lost me for exactly the reasons you define, while I came over to Obama because of his intelligence, humility, and authenticity.
KH
I agree 100% with your reasons for why you could no longer, in good conscience support Hillary Clinton in the future. All of the examples you cited show how above everything else - integrity, decency, honesty, her party - she was only out for herself. In my opinion, she did a terrible disservice to one of her last remaining constituencies: women. Originally I would have loved to see her become president, but after witnessing the poorly executed and ruthless path she was taking to get there, I could no longer support her.
Signed,
Georgia Mom for Obama
Wow, and thank you for posting this, an honest and rational account of the changes in your opinions and
expectations. I wish more people - yes, including those with other viewpoints - would take the time to clarify their perspective on what has happened and how it has affected their political opinions.
I blindly supported the Clintons when the venom against them was out of proportion to the acts. Now I wonder if it might also have been than I didn't have a choice.
The sexism against Hillary on Fox, Glen Beck and the likes was shocking and her supporters are right, they never would have said the same thing about Obama's race. I can't help but think that for some Clinton supporters it galvanized them and blinded them to her own misdeeds.
I don't watch any of those people so I didn't see any of overt sexism until very recently in clips on youtube. When sources I do frequent started bashing her, like Andrew Sullivan, I stopped reading him. But for me the line was crossed when she personally fed the flames over Wright. I could no longer defend her and it only got worse.
The question now, for me, is was Bill as bad as they said? It's going to be hard to win me back.
Outstanding post that I largely agree with. Unlike you, Sean, I was not a fan of Senator Clinton when the campaign began. I'm a New Yorker; I voted for her, with some reluctance, in 2000, and then watched as she made political calculation and symbolic nonsense the hallmarks of her Senate career. She never led on anything, and her war vote was disgustingly characteristic of the Clinton/DLC sense that state-sanctioned violence always equates to good politics.
During the campaign, as you say, she showed the amoral hunger for victory of a Bush Republican (which I think explains in large part why she suddenly gained so much sympathy on the fringe right--they recognized a kindred spirit). The despicable tactics and ongoing insults to the intelligence of anyone paying attention explain why so many people, in the course of the race, shifted their allegiance from Clinton to one of the other contenders--ultimately Obama, of course.
She can't win me back and I look forward to supporting anyone who mounts a primary against her in 2012.
That said, I thought the speech today was about as good as realistically possible. While I share your wish for a sign of contrition, we know that isn't likely; the supremely self-absorbed Clintons never apologize, because they never feel the need. All we can ask now is that she support the nominee. I would have liked to see some more explicit talk of the differences between Obama and McCain on the issues Sen. Clinton claims to care about--but this was a pretty good start, and there are five months left to prove her good faith. If she does, the fact that a few of us are confirmed in our view of her won't much matter.
What else does Hillary Clinton have in her life, besides the pursuit of power? There are a few people, like George W. Bush, who simply need to go away.
Now of course, George W. Bush could say things that would make me feel better about him, Hillary Clinton could say things that would make me feel better about her, and so on. This is all theoretically possible.
But as Obama exemplifies, there are plenty of good people (I mean, people who really are admirable) who are prepared to assume important political roles. In 2012, there is no need to turn to (of all people) Hillary Clinton.
To Sean: This is a very important piece and I thank you for posting it here. I will comment that infusing opinion into the content here will hinder becoming a respected source of political and statistical analyses (could you imagine Survey USA publishing such stuff and still being viewed as completely credible by so many people?), but if that specifically isn't your primary goal then I think this is an appropriate direction to take the site. I would appreciate a graphic or "EDITORIAL:" at the beginning of the headlines of such future pieces, though. I would also appreciate expanding the writer pool to include at least one Clinton supporter and two republicans... if you are able to find any that are as analytical and well-informed as you two are.
To many of the commenters: Some of you have expressed displeasure at non-opinion portion of this piece's content but have failed to provide arguments that contradict any of its claims. That part of the article is simply expressing true information about a portion of the population which exists and is not insignificant, to which the author happens to belong. My question to you is why are you so adverse to this information, and why do you seem so uncomfortable with being more informed?
Also, many other commenters have responded to this article which is critical of Clinton's actions by turning around and criticizing Obama for actions taken by others. With people accusing him of being messainic and thinking that his "shit don't stink" and also accusing him of not having any policy positions, this is mind-boggling to me. Do you all forget that most commentators originally criticized Obama for including too much policy in his speeches and showing too much humility? He is the only candidate that has complimented each of his opponents almost every time he has brought them up in a speech, he is the only candidate that has repeatedly said he will make mistakes and won't be perfect, and he is the only candidate that has congratulated each of his opponents in all of their many victories. Maybe the worst misperception prevalent here, though, is that people are buying into the media narrative of someone being guilty for what their supporters say. There is no justification for this and this is what separates people like Wright, Ayers, Ferraro, Rezko, etc. from people who actually matter such as Mark Penn, Samantha Powers, Sean Wilentz, Lanny Davis, etc. In both cases, though, what speaks volumes about a candidate is how they handle the situation. Obama quickly distanced himself from all of the people in his campaign with whom there was a moral conflict once that moral conflict became clear and Clinton only once distanced herself and drug her feet or did nothing in other cases, as if the morals she claimed to have were in fact not morals she held at all. Meanwhile Clinton felt it appropriate to lob attacks at Obama when no clear moral conflict was present for him but instead a mere political conflict existed. It's almost as if she values politics more than morality or, gasp, she has no morality at all.
One of the reasons I feel that having an analytical and well-informed Clinton supporter write for the site would be beneficial would be so we can finally have someone give arguments explaining why the things mentioned in Sean's artical are at all excusable, or even not completely inconsistent with any commonly accepted moral philosophy. I am beginning to suspect that the reason there isn't one Clinton supporter out of the millions that has done this is because being analytical and well-informed would make it impossible to support Clinton in good conscience. That also plays into attacking informative articles because one doesn't like the implications of the information contained within and also attacking the author of such an article with labels such as "obama cultist" and "poorly informed" when it is clear from the article itself that neither of those things are true of the author.
Thank you for an astoundingly clear and well written statement of the anger and revulsion so many of us began to feel about the way in which Mrs. Clinton and her surrogates approached the election. I am an African-American woman and I felt doubly betrayed by her race baiting, faux-feminist power grab that was so much more about advancing her own agenda than it was about empowering anyone else.
I have learned to expect anything from the Republicans, however, seeing these tactics come from a fellow Democrat was completely unacceptable.
I will not be able to support her efforts to attain any national elected office now, or at any time in the future. In fact, I am committed to working for any progressive candidate who runs against her for her New York senate seat. In order to regain my respect, Mrs. Clinton would have to convincingly denounce and repudiate the Rovian strategy that she pulled out of the kitchen sink during the primary.
Great post - agree wholeheartedly.
With people accusing him of being messainic and thinking that his "shit don't stink" and also accusing him of not having any policy positions, this is mind-boggling to me. Do you all forget that most commentators originally criticized Obama for including too much policy in his speeches and showing too much humility?
I didn't see anyone accusing Obama of having no policy positions. But I do think he tends to project the sense that he's above it all.
He is the only candidate that has complimented each of his opponents almost every time he has brought them up in a speech, he is the only candidate that has repeatedly said he will make mistakes and won't be perfect, and he is the only candidate that has congratulated each of his opponents in all of their many victories.
If your point is that Obama's a class act, I agree with you.
Maybe the worst misperception prevalent here, though, is that people are buying into the media narrative of someone being guilty for what their supporters say.
I, for one, have made a point of distinguishing between Obama and his insufferably defensive fan club.
I totally agree with your feelings on HRC. It was a great summation, thanks!
As for putting these kinds of comments here, I think it's perfectly fine. I have always read some articles and not read others depending on how much they interested me. I'll continue doing that, as can anyone else who's interested. I'd only be upset if the analysis is skewed or is made secondary and sparse because this is a great site for those of us that want to hear the facts.
KS Rose
I'm totally sympathetic to your views, but I'm glad Clinton spoke to supporters instead of embarking upon some mea culpa speech she obviously doesn't believe. It never happens in politics that elections end with the also rans concluding that the other candidate was better. If you're looking for objectivity, politics is the wrong racket.
Clinton's supporters have a counter-narrative which explains every point you raised. It's one I find as persuasive as, well, Clinton's argument that she won the popular vote, but the Mets vs. Yankees aspect of politics will make it impossible for most people to engage, much less resolve, these issues now.
If Clinton succeeds in bringing her renegade voters back into the fold, it will only be because she offers them reasons to vote for the Democrats in November which fall comfortably within their current narrative.
And if she fails at at this task, well, then the recriminations will start, your arguments about damage Clinton might have done to the party will have some factual basis, but, let's face it, this will be good for no one.
Thank you, Sean, for giving voice to my thoughts. I always feel for the underdog, have empathy for the loser. This is one of the rare occasions (I can't remember another although I'm sure there must be one) when I had absolutely positively not one iota of sympathy for this woman. All I could feel was dread that she's a many-headed hydra and that head is destined to appear again and again and again.
Your entire essay is one of simple truths and complex realities. I can only hope that Obama can find his way around future obstacles with the same dexterity he and his team have manifested so far. I have faith and reading your words lets me know we're all working in concert. Thanks.
Charles P., thanks for your last post.
I didn't see anyone accusing Obama of having no policy positions. But I do think he tends to project the sense that he's above it all.
Do you think that he actually thinks that he is above it all or is that what you think he does. There is a difference.
The media keeps on saying that people think that he is an elitist, that somehow he was raised with a silver spoon in his mouth. It is totally false as he was raised mostly by a single mother and by his grandparents. He went to school on scholarships and student loans. When he graduated from Harvard law he could have had his choice of high 6-figure Wall Street firms. Instead, he went back to an average paying community-organizing job in Chicago. See what I mean, the perception is that he is an elitist, the reality is that he is not.
Daniel M
Thank you, Sean. I found this through Andrew Sullivan. I appreciate your insightful response and feel you nailed it. I know so many people who feel so disillusioned by her campaign. It failed due to her own mistakes in terms of strategy, finances, and integrity. There was nothing she could say today that would change my opinion of her. My feeling is that any Democrat who is now going to vote for the Republican was not truly with us in the first place.
with regard to "I didn't see anyone accusing Obama of having no policy positions."
The following is a quote from an onnonymous poster in this very thread:
As for Obamas policys. We are going to stop Global warming is not a policy. We are going to stop rising oil prices is not a policy. We are going to protect the environment is not a policy. We are going to make sure everyone has health care is not a policy. We are going to fix Social Security is not a Policy. We are going to restore jobs is not a policy. We are going to make sure everyone has an opportunity to go to college is not a policy. We are going to get the troops out of Irag in six months is not a policy. We are going to meet with Ahminejad, Chaves and Castro and everyone can sit around the campfire and sing Kambaya, is not a policy. We are going to protect Israel is not a policy. We are going to stop Iran from getting a nuclear weapon is not a policy. It only becomes policy if you propose a workable plan that will accomplish all of the above in a Partisan Congress, and your actions will be supported by the voters.
with regard to "But I do think he tends to project the sense that he's above it all.":
It is unclear what you mean by this. If you mean he projects that he is above the typical washington political game, then I see that as an asset and not a fault as you make it out to be. Indeed, everyone should strive to be above such dirt and in fact most americans succeed. It's only those few power-hungry businessmen and politicians at the top that succumb to the corruption. As long as he maintains his forth-coming dialect with the public, doesn't start dealing heavily in closed-door politicking, fights for proper government and political financing, and doesn't use his power to unjustly benefit his allies, then I'd say it would be dishonest to not act above Washington political games. Indeed, I'm above Washington political games and if I were ever to run for office I would think it ridiculous were I attacked for being so.
On the other hand, if you are saying that Obama portrays himself as being above (as in more entitled than) normal people, then I'm gonna need some evidence because I don't see that at all. Is it possible that this is just some feeling you got from your time as a Clinton supporter that you never managed to shake? I've heard similar sentiments from Clinton supporters before, even very early in the primaries, and it always confuses me because I've listened to his speeches, read his legislation, and watched his interviews and never once did I get that impression. I mean, he's a black guy raised by a single mother in a poor community in Chicago who worked hard and went into debt so he could get an education just to go back and serve the community he grew up in. Hell, you yourself describe him as a class act and that would seem to contradict him projecting that he's above others.
thank you. your words beautifully express exactly what i have been feeling.
Bill B. to all you Obama lovers, it's time for me to go to bed, but I am laughing so hard, it will probably be awhile before I can get to sleep. The poster who said: "Obama quickly distanced himself from all of the people in his campaign with whom there was a moral conflict once that moral conflict became clear". I especially appreciate the phrase "quickly distance himself". Twenty years listening to Wright, nearly 10 years with Ayers, 10 years or more with Rezko, and over 15 years with Faraghan. QUICKLY??? Then comes the part that made me laugh the hardest, "from all of the people in his campaign with whom there was a moral conflict once that moral conflict became clear". I would think that any rational person would find it difficult to vote for a man for president whose moral compass is turned on only if he is running for president. Since it is obvious he compromised his integrity, and he associated with people like this in order to feed his political ambitions, are you so naive as to conclude he won't continue to associate with this type of trash, if he finds it expedient to do so after being elected? Maybe you believe both Obama and Hillary will have a come to Jesus moment and everything will be fine. I recognize I am getting old, but my Grandfather taught me, "A man is known by the company he keeps". He also said:
"Our character is reflected in our choice of friends". I must have missed something, because I thought this was during a persons whole life, not just when he was running for public office. If Grandpa was still here I would ask him, but I am pretty sure what his answer would be.Oh Well!!! Obama is the Messiah so he gets an exemption from "common sense" granted by his supporters. He may get that exemption, but the rest of the posters in this string don't. WHERE IS "YOUR" COMMON SENSE??? Nighty! Nighty!
Thank you for this opinion piece.
I'm Black and she disrespected the Black Community from the moment Billy Shaheen came out and began the campaign of racebaiting.
I've said from the beginning, as a Black person, I EXPECTED SUCH FROM A REPUBLICAN.
I refuse to accept it from a Democrat.
Do you think that he actually thinks that he is above it all or is that what you think he does. There is a difference.
This is what makes politics so interesting. No one can ever know what someone else thinks. All we can do is make inferences, and our inferences can be wildly inaccurate including my own. I make no claim to omniscience, regardless of my habit of writing in a very active voice.
I look at both the text and the subtext, and the context. A speaker doesn't necessarily know what (s)he conveys, and more than a few speakers have sputtered in frustration at their being (in their view) misunderstood.
If you clicked on a link I gave above, and if you've read all of my tedious postings, you ought to know that I support Barack Obama about as much as it's possible for me to do at this stage. Yet, I think he has weaknesses, and I think one of them is his tendency to convey aloofness.
Look, no one's perfect. I used to be in the investment business, and I was quite fond of telling people that the minute they found a perfect story to turn around and run away from it as fast as they could.
The media keeps on saying that people think that he is an elitist, that somehow he was raised with a silver spoon in his mouth. It is totally false as he was raised mostly by a single mother and by his grandparents. He went to school on scholarships and student loans. When he graduated from Harvard law he could have had his choice of high 6-figure Wall Street firms. Instead, he went back to an average paying community-organizing job in Chicago. See what I mean, the perception is that he is an elitist, the reality is that he is not.
Politics, like life, is neither fair nor accurate, but sometimes it shines lights in places that no one (including the shinee) was aware existed.
Obama projects "Harvardness." Now, I happen to lament the American tendency toward anti-intellectualism, at least to a degree. I'm acquainted with the Ivy League, having gotten an MBA from Wharton. The Ivy League has its strengths and its weaknesses, with the strengths outweighing the weaknesses in my view.
Every character trait has its positives and its negatives. I am highly impressed by Obama's unflappability. In my opinion, he passed the commander-in-chief test with flying colors over the past few months. The downside, though, is that he projects aloofness.
Come on, he's human. No one's perfect. But we all try, and if there's one other thing that shines through with Obama is that he's a major league striver for improvement. Which also impresses me. Politically, he should look for ways to fill that particular gap without twisting himself into a pretzel a la Al Gore in the fall of 2000.
No one said this was easy. I don't envy him at all. Which, by the way, is yet another reason that I genuinely admire the guy. But he ain't no god on earth, okay? He can't be all things to all people; in some aspects, he just ought to come on out and say so.
I really wish Kerry had done that. If the guy had found a way in 2004 to say, in essence, "Folks, I'm a stiff New Englander. I'm probably not the guy you want at the backyard barbecue, but I sure as hell am the guy you want as president," I think we'd be having a very different conversation right now.
As for Obamas policys. We are going to stop Global warming is not a policy. ...
Touche. You got me.
If you mean he projects that he is above the typical washington political game, then I see that as an asset and not a fault as you make it out to be.
I was born 'n raised in the Midwest, and as such I am skeptical of anyone who thinks they're "above" very much of anything. But maybe that's my own neurosis. So sue me.
As long as he maintains his forth-coming dialect with the public, doesn't start dealing heavily in closed-door politicking, fights for proper government and political financing, and doesn't use his power to unjustly benefit his allies, then I'd say it would be dishonest to not act above Washington political games.
You are demanding mythology. Good luck with that.
I mean, he's a black guy raised by a single mother in a poor community in Chicago
He wasn't raised in Chicago. You seem to have imagined that one all on your own lonesome. Nor was he entirely raised by a single mom. For a significant part of his life, he was raised by his grandparents. Both of them. This isn't a negative. It's a fact.
you yourself describe him as a class act and that would seem to contradict him projecting that he's above others
It's a paradox. The older you get, the more you will appreciate that life is chock full of paradoxes. And thank God for that, because paradoxes and how we deal with them are what makes life interesting.
Bill B. to all you Obama lovers
Bill, you are a Republican who has portrayed himself as something other than that. You fool no one here. Go back to Freeperland and brag of your exploits. I'm sure they'll be impressed. It doesn't take much to impress your crowd.
Maybe you believe both Obama and Hillary will have a come to Jesus moment and everything will be fine.
We don't need "fine." What we need is "good enough," and after today's concession speech I think we got "good enough" and then some. We'll see how it goes from here, but I'd sure as hell rather be a Democrat this year than one of your crowd, desperate scratching for good news in a shitstorm of your own making.
Nighty! Nighty!
Good night, Bill, and bad luck!
This was a great column, Sean.
All of you detractors and complainers, cancel your subscriptions and get your money ba—
What? This is a free blog done by some guys interested in helping to dissect polls and offer analysis and share it with one and all?
This post was the first time I actually ventured into the comments, and I am glad I did. I want Sean to know he's right, and anyone with a problem that they are dead wrong.
There is nothing less appropriate, to me, than telling somebody what to do with a podium of their own creation.
You expect Sean to undergo an experience like he just described—engagingly I might add— and keep it stifled because some of you just want "the box scores"?
How's this? If the post doesn't have any graphs in it, scroll on by.
We expect Sean not to be a whiny crybaby who acts like Hillary Clinton owes him a favor, maybe.
Dear Sir:
I appreciate what you have to say, and agree with a lot of it. However, I have one problem with your post: it is bad writing. Despite its virtues as analysis, I reiterate: it is difficult to work all the way through it, because the prose itself is subpar. I enjoy coming to this site because, unlike on any other blog, I can find good writing and good analysis, courtesy of Nate. As a matter of fact, I enjoyed your piece on the Governor of Montana the other night, and that's why I was surprised to see that you'd written this. 538 is quoted by The Times and much of the respected media; I hope that all of the site's content is of the quality that has made the site so influential, and has made me a regular patron.
Sincerely,
A Concerned Reader
Bill B.:
If you watch the entire videos of Wrights sermons (and not just the out-of-context clips) you will note that the only things truly wrong or incongruent with Obama's message were contradictory in politics, not morals. Specifically, there can be found complete justification for every moral claim Wright made in the bible itself. Things such as accusing the government of creating AIDS because they also ran the Tuskegee syphilis study are not just clearly factually incorrect, but they also are pollitically incorrect and contrary to Obama's politics. But, note that no moral claim is made in such statements. As such, Obama may find it reprehensible, but I would not expect him to abandon a preacher for that alone. If he had been present on that day I might expect him to confront Wright, but that's a pointless hypothetical. I suspect that most people have political differences with their preacher, as any two people's political philosophies are unlikely to agree, but I would not expect it common for a parishoner to approach their pastor unless they felt a conflict in moral philosophy (or as in this case where the preacher was clearly factually wrong).
The connection people are trying to draw between him and Ayers is empty. Obama gave his time to work for a charity he believed in and he was given the position because the people who ran the charity also believed in him. Similarly with Ayers. The fact that they both gave time to the same charity and saw eachother and had to sometimes speak in the same room to eachother means nothing in this context. It would be like blaming all of the senators in congress for the racism of one or all soldiers in a troop for the cowardice of one. They happened to serve the same charity at the same time, that's all, and no distancing is needed.
What moral conflict did Obama have with Rezko while they were firends? He turned out to be a criminal, sure, but it's not like anyone could've known he was going to do that until after he committed the crimes, and apparently no one predicted it while they were still good friends.
Obama has no connection to Farrakhan (or "Faraghan" as you seem to spell it).
So, there you go. You were wrong to imply any meaningful connection on two counts, and wrong to suggest a long-standing moral conflict on all four. I know, you're going to come back saying I'm blinded by the Obama cult or something, that I would find excuses for anything Obama's ever done, but the truth of the situation here is that Obama's not done anything wrong with relation to these people. I could just as easily ask you why McCain is such good friends with Kim Jong Il or why McCain has spent three hundred years studying under Hitler.
What this does reveal, though, is that you buy wholly into the (Fox News driven) media narrative of blaming people for what their supporters espouse as political philosophy. As soon as Rezko was accused of those crimes Obama expressed his dissappointment and said he would denounce him were Rezko guilty. As soon as Wright came out on his book tour speaking things that were clearly morally contrary to Obama in ways that weren't evident in his earlier sermons, Obama denounced him.
The media was wrong to ever pick up on any sort of connection of importance between these four people and Obama, and if you look at the history of it, the media at large only picked up on it after Fox News had been hammering at the connections for weeks, usually dropping the stories after a couple days when they realized how foolish they had been. But not good old Fox News. They get paid in proportion to how foolish they are.
By the way, your grandfather had a very narrow view of the world which likely prevented him from ever being well-informed about how people really are. People aren't their friends and people who only hang out with people who are like themselves learn little about different people and allow themselves to grow even less. For instance, most of the friends I hang out with regularly are very religious, are art or creative writing majors in college, drink and smoke either cigarettes or marijuana regularly, support Hillary Clinton or third party candidates, and are huge sports enthusiasts. I, by contrast, am not at all religious (I'm not even athiest), I have a BS in physics, a MS in math, and am pursuing a PHD in engineering, I never drink or smoke, I support Obama, and I have no interest at all for sports. Further, I disagree greatly with many of my friends on political issues and even sometimes on moral issues. For instance, I regularly argue to my friends who do support Obama that he is far too excusing of Isreal, he is clearly just pandering by not committing to full legalization of gay marriage, etc. With those who aren't supporters of Obama, though, I remain their friends and continue to debate with them on why gay marriage should be legal and why we shouldn't take the stance that Isreal hasn't and can't do any wrong. It makes me a more enlightened person to associate with people that disagree with me and listen to their arguments, and to fault someone for holding such associations merely for the associations and nothing more is childish.
Charles Pluckhahn:
Thanks for the correction on Obama's early life. I was erroniously repeating what I had heard from others. I previously tried to avoid making character judgements on any of the candidates (as they all put on an act while in the limelight) and so I didn't really look into his life before the Illinois state senate.
And, regarding the mythology comment, I say the proof is in the record. I will admit to being young and even inexperienced, especially with regard to politics, but you only need one counterexample for something to progress from mythology to realistic, and my one example is Barney Frank. So far Obama has also lived up to my standards of politics, so if he is able to get through the remainder of this campaign without failing that, then I will have two examples of successful politicians who got where they did because of their desire for principled change, not power and games. I would then feel vindicated in my expectations, and I would come to expect more democrats to live up to them in the coming years as they prove more and more practical as a guiding political policy.
What this does reveal, though, is that you buy wholly into the (Fox News driven) media narrative of blaming people for what their supporters espouse as political philosophy.
Let's try to pretend to be honest here. I blame the Republicans for hanging out with every evangelical crackpot. They've pandered to the "end times" heresy, and the result has been a grotesque distortion of Middle Eastern policy along with deeply reactionary social views on the domestic front.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Obama's association with Wright is fair game; even he has said as much. I don't hold it against him, and I don't think most of the public does either. But people are certainly entitled to consider it, just as I'm entitled to consider McCain's association with whackjob Bible thumpers on the right.
I will admit to being young and even inexperienced, especially with regard to politics.
Out of appreciation for your candor, I will refrain from telling you to get off my lawn. That was humor.
So far Obama has also lived up to my standards of politics, so if he is able to get through the remainder of this campaign without failing that, then I will have two examples of successful politicians who got where they did because of their desire for principled change, not power and games.
I would suggest that you are seeing what you want to see. I make a concerted effort to see everything, and then weigh the good along with the bad. For example, Obama's pandering to AIPAC was sad and pathetic, and speaks volumes about the extent of a particular dysfunction in our system that has given Israel's Likud Party such suzerainty over much of our foreign policy.
As screwed up as that is, I can't reject Obama for it. Nor can I reject the Democrats because they will grovel at the feet of corporations to fund the convention, nor can I abandon Obama because he allows everyone tom imagine that he's funded on small donations when in fact he's getting big gobs of money in big checks raked in by the same sort of "bundlers" that everyone else uses.
This is the system we have. It stinks, but so do my feet on a hot day. Yet I keep walking and from time to time I wash my feet. The rest of the time, I cover them with socks and shoes. But I still take care when I uncork them dogs at the end of the day; I have no illusions.
Another ridiculous aspect of our system is that we demand that a president be not just our chief executive but our national rock star, father confessor, the vessel for our hopes 'n dreams.
We demand that these people lie to us, or at least mislead us, and we judge them on how effectively they do it. This is all a big goof, a national dodge that preserves our "innocence" for the moment when we profess to be shocked, just shocked, that the bastard lied to us.
This will be my ninth presidential election. I'm still waiting for some candidate to tell me that this one is NOT the most important one ever, just as I'm waiting for some politician to point at a specific major decision or action and say, "Christ almighty, did I ever fuck that one up."
So you'll forgive me if I don't join the Fan Club. I'll vote for him, and I'll probably even send him money. I'll watch the contest closely, but I'm also going to be making sure to spend enough time in the garden making sure the tomatoes give me something I can eat.
Love your writing (sean)pocketnines, you have expressed once again that which resonates uncannily with my own feelings
Bill B.to Charles Pluckhahn. I had to hold my nose when I voted for Bush and it wasn't his feet, but I voted for him anyway because I thought Kerry carried too much baggage and wouldn't protect my country. We certainly can agree to disagree but I appreciate at least once running into a Democrat who doesn't suffer from delusions and is a realist. You would make a hell of a neighbor, we could sure have fun discussing politics at the backyard barbecues. Nice chatting with you.
Sean - I agree with what you're saying: but please, this isn't the place for it. I found the Gov of Montana thought helpful, but not this posting (even though I agree with your sentiment). Please use TPM or Kos or somewhere else for such outpourings.
Superb post. But in a sense it was a complete waste of time because if Clinton were the sort of person who could conceivably come up with the apologies you require of her, she would never have needed to apologise.
Character is indeed fate.
Sean,
I agree with most of what you said about Hillary, and I sympathize strongly with your feelings about her tactics. I was very happy with her speech, however. An apology would have weakened her in the eyes of her most fervent supporters, and we need her strong and pro-Obama, which she was.
Thank you, Sean. I am a woman, but otherwise your self-description and rationale for being a Democrat are apt for me as well. You are not alone.
Hillary did give her speech, and it went much as you suggested it would. I will appreciate her ability to walk her supporters back, but I will be under no illusion she will go exactly as far as her self-interest dictates.
Thank you for the essay.
While I am pro-Obama, and have disliked Hillary more as the campaign has gone on, I haven't understood why many seem to feel so passionately about her. Now I do.
Bill B., the bottom line is who you are voting for. I've never cast a vote for the Bushes, who I always considered America's most elegant white trash family. McCain had his moments where he looked as if he was something that he's obviously not. In any case, the man is manifestly unqualified to be president now; he is 71 years old going on 90. Putting aside his Republicanism and his cravenness, he's a senile, doddering old man who is not up to the job.
Your Republican Party has run out of string. It is like the Democrats were in the early 80s. It is exhausted, and a creature of whatever nerve ending hurts the most at any given moment.
What passes for your party's leaders are stupid, corrupt, insensitive, and ugly. They have run this country badly off the rails. My guess is that you'll vote for them again, along with much of Jesusland whose ignorant slobs vote for every charlatan who farts out the right code words at election time and then wonders why everyone else looks down on them.
My guess is that, this year, Obama starts in the low 50s. McCain starts in the low 40s. The minor parties siphon off 4-5%. Those numbers will move around depending on campaign skill and events.
I think there's a lot more upside potential for Obama than downside, especially if (as I believe) he and his inner circle don't start believing their own press releases. Let's hope they can delay that phenomenon until sometime after they're elected, with a good old-fashioned scandal or two needed to bring them back to earth.
Bill to C. Pluckhahn: Everything else being equal I would agree on many of your points, but everything else isn't equal. This election is plowing new ground. The ground it is plowing is fertile and the fertility is racism. If 85% of the whites voted for the white candidate in a primary, all of the media would holler racism. When 85% of the blacks voted for a black candidate, the silence was obvious.
I wrote this in another string!!! Please point out where you disagree.
Bill B. to all. Has anybody figured out that race is going to be an issue in this election no matter how hard the Democrats wish it away? Maybe Rick Davis is paying attention to the polls that said, no matter which party they represented, many wouldn't vote for a black. The question than becomes how many blacks wouldn't vote for a white, if they had a choice. Add to this the number of blacks and whites who said race was an issue they would be using in making their decision. This is clearly a racial issue not a partisan issue. Nate, you are the numbers guy, put together a graph that takes this into consideration. You have the poll numbers so it shouldn't be that hard.I won't blame you if you don't, but you are a numbers guy, how can you just ignore numbers at 7% and above when many of the tossup states went for less than 7% in the last election? Does any one truly believe that if McCain wins the election Democrats won't blame Obamas loss on racism? I am waiting to see the red and blue states than, and am betting they will come closer to the map Rick Davis has on the web site.
What he said. Totally.
~a white professional fifty-plus female
Great piece. Your description mirrors not only how I feel about Hillary now and will feel about her in 2012 or 2016, but also the descent from respect to disgust that my opinion of her took over the course of the campaign.
I'm new to 538, but will definitely be back.
Bill B, I didn't happen to see McCain speak last Tuesday night. Now that I've seen his performance, I think the only arguments this November are going to be within your party over what the hell happened.
Sean,
Thanks for articulating a lot of what I've felt and gone through myself.
Complaining Commenters,
See Sean's own words above:
In the commentary on this subject, some of which you are sure to see today on television, I haven't seen this subject approached or explained in this manner. Which is why I decided there was value in writing this.
Again, what follow are my opinions, not Nate's. And if you don't want to read a lengthy piece, stop now. It winds up being much longer than I intended, but so be it.
And, yes, this is not a polling piece or a numbers piece, or "the reason you originally came to this site." All of those elements will still be here adding value, but there will also be some other types of pieces here. Like Nate's epic Lanny Davis takedown, or my perspective on Brian Schweitzer the other night. Both of us will still write about the numbers and the data, but that's not all we think about. This post won't help you learn whether Obama or McCain is likeliest to win Nevada, so don't bother pointing that out in comments.
...and quit cutting his right to express his opinion, and quit repeating that this site is primarily about the numbers, especially after you nimwits were warned and chose to read the piece anyway.
Bill B. to Charles Pluckhahn. How are we going to have a conversation if you completely ignore my questions? Making cute little remarks in order to burst your self-confidence is not a path to glory. Jump in the waters fine. I will be as gentle as a Liberal 60 year old white female describing the positive reasons for voting for McCain when she has never voted for a Republican in her life. You can catch her live performance on you-tube. LMAO!!!!
Bill B., I'm glad you're happy with McBush. Depending on how bad of a candidate he proves to be, he'll get 39%-44% of the vote to Obama's 52%-57%. If you want to think that white racism is going to save your favorite doddering old fool, be my guest. Let us know how it works out for you, but in the meantime don't expect me to take you seriously.
Bill to Charles Pluckhahn. Don't you see just a little bit of hypocrisy in your last post? Wouldn't you agree that both an Obama fan and a Hillary fan would find it hard to take me serious if I insisted on Obama being an OBAMATON? While I will concede Bush has moved toward McCain on Iraq and McCain has moved toward reality on immigration, they are still worlds apart on spending, campaign finance reform, earmarks, health care,evangelicals in politics,nuclear energy, drilling in ANWR, global warming, Guantanamo, torture,the list goes on and on. Don't you agree that often one persons "serious" can often be another's wishful thinking.
Another question, considering eight years of Bush and the malaise inside the Republican party, how do you explain McCain even being in the Ball Game if all he is, is just another Bush? Was your reasoning yesterday just pandering or do you only engage your brain to decide your destination, instead of using it to decide whether you should make the trip. Is Obama just another uberliberal Democrat politician? "Let us know how it works out for you, but in the meantime don't expect me to take you seriously."
If this is your thought process, why didn't you leave the Democratic Party after 1996, when Bill Clinton essentially gutted the civil rights wing of the party in the name of winning elections, and during the Lewinsky scandal when he did exactly what you're saying Hillary Clinton did - put himself before anything in a way that filled me cold, sick, horror.
His offenses were far more egregious and yet the intensity of feeling is reserved for her. There's something that doesn't fully add up with these kinds of explanations - though it may largely be societal rather than personal. Maybe sexism? maybe generational turnover? Maybe sheer exhaustion with the politics? Maybe that capital has turned on the Republicans, seeing that they're no longer useful :)
Seventeen million Hillary Clinton voters would like you to cram it up the orifice of your choice.
the reverse racism argument is a crock. Blacks are voting FOR someone. Those whites who are voting based on race are voting AGAINST someone. Big difference, between a positive vibe and a negative one.
Bill to Gnostic 19: That big difference exists only in the mind of a Liberal. The blacks are voting for a black the whites are voting for a white, nobody is voting against anyone and it is indeed racism. Furthermore all would deny they voted against anybody. Can you in your infinite wisdom judge them as liars, and how would you conclude who was lying? If you decide it is only the whites or only the blacks than you are guilty of racism.
Wow - excellent read. My sentiments exactly, except the Clintons even conured up long-buried ill feelings from the '90s. Nice.
Don't you see just a little bit of hypocrisy in your last post?
Nope.
how do you explain McCain even being in the Ball Game if all he is, is just another Bush?
McBush is what was left standing after the Baptists blocked the Mormon, and the Wall Streeters blocked Huckleberry, and Foghorn Leghorn went off for a nap, and Ron Paul established a tin-foil hat ceiling at 10%-25% of your vote depending on how crazy the state was.
And even then, your nominee still couldn't crack 75% in primaries that should have been completely uncontested. Republicans don't even like the son-of-a-bitch, which is why he's racing to identify himself with Bush. Kind of pathetic, isn't it?
Is Obama just another uberliberal Democrat politician?
I sure hope so. I've had it with that "triangulation" bullshit.
dr anonymous:
Many people did not leave the democratic party despite their disgust with Bill Clinton because it does not make sense to leave an entire party simply because of a few people. Indeed, if you agree with the core principles of the democratic party more than those of any other then you should instead stick around and try to repair the party to be as it should, not separate yourselves and become powerless. Even today the DLC hold power over the democratic party, but Dean, Pelosi, and now Obama taking the highest positions of power in the party and with Gore being the only person both widely liked and seen as objective, it looks like we may soon be able to take the party back from the Clintons and their DLC.
Bill to C Pluckhahn: Wrong ballgame, the one you describe is history. The one McCain is still in ends Nov 4. Of course you already knew that since you are not stupid, just adept at being evasive. I am sure you wouldn't agree that Obama has been moving in McCains direction regarding conversations with Chaves, Ahmanadinejad, Castro etc. but it is happening none the less.Your candidate is just a snot nosed child with little to know experience who rode the
racism bus to victory because he preaches well and only had to deal with a female carrying too much baggage. McCain is no Hillary Clinton, and Obama never even won the popular vote against her in your own primary. There is no substance just wishful thing. Since wishful thinking is why the Dems have only managed to win the ballgame 3 times in the last 30 years, and everyone agrees Carter was a disaster, and your failure to select Hillary was a Democratic repudiation of Clinton, it is obvious your batting average isn't very good. What is comical is before every election the Dems congratulated themselves on picking an unbeatable candidate. The truth is, if it hadn't of been for Perot's Billions and his personal animosity toward Bush senior Bill wouldn't even have been elected. He never managed to get a majority of the popular vote. Your personal batting average, by your own admission is no better than the rest of the Dems, so your previous predictions were also mostly wishful thinking. The thing I have going for me is the country including 18 million Democrats, doesn't buy into your conclusions regarding Obama being a winner. If 75% is your magic number, Obama is further behind than McCain. At least McCain got over 50%.
This post is a joke, and makes me sick as a Hillary Clinton supporter. We don't care anymore why you hate her. You're the reason she lost. You have internalized the anti-Clinton narratives the right and the media have hit mostly Bill Clinton with and put it on Hillary, just as will (unfortunately) likely happen with Barack Obama. Read Stanly Fish on Hillary-hating. How is it possible you can really be angered she sat down with Richard Mellon Scaife, who runs a newspaper? Obama has sidled up with Drudge and all sorts of lean-right news organizations. His staff explicitly pushed reporters to start investigating sex scandals and Clinton (total sleaze). Obama praised Reagan, saying Clinton was "Cheney lite." Etc., etc. I'm also still waiting for Obama to apologzie for using misogynist hip-hop during his public speeches to "reach the youth"--and for the memo saying that Hillary or Clinton had said racist comments BEFORE South Carolina voted (I'll give you that after the votes came in the Jesse Jackson comment by B.C. wasn't a good one). Also, why is it that Hillary Clinton has one of the most racially, ethnically, and gender diverse staffs in the U.S. Senate and on her campaign? Obama hires mostly men, and mostly white guys at that. If you want to look into someone's true intentions, look at who they choose to surround themselves with. Please stop trashing Clinton--you are worse than Richard Mellon Scaife. At least Scaife had the decency to give her a chance, while clearly you never will. If your writing is indicative of the new Democratic party, I don't want to be part of it.
Bill B. to Margie: I just have to ask. I have seen hundreds of posts like yours on the different blogs, but the Democrats who have perfected the art of wishful thinking are all saying don't worry when push comes to shove they will come around. Now I am not a woman, but I have been happily married to what I will call a "strong willed" woman for 49 years. I am an Alpha male, and she doesn't threaten me, she complements me. The one thing I have observed is don't cross her. She doesn't forgive and she doesn't forget. Thinking she will ever change would just be wishful thinking. The truth is I wouldn't want her to. Now the question, how many of Hillary's supporters do you think will vote against Obama?
Very insightful article. You could use the same logic on the other candidates as well. I believe we'd all like to vote for the best person to be president, but they are never a candidate. So, like good cattle, we settle for what we are given.
Bill B, I am afraid that you have slip'd the surly bonds of earth and touched the face of God. Back to Freeperville with you and your cliches. It's been fun unmasking you.
Nobody will read this comment probably, but:
I agree with your feelings on playing the race card, and on Scaife. But I absolutely disagree with your reading of the assassination comment. I actually doubt that there was any ulterior motive there, as opposed to a straightforward "hillary=kennedy" equation. Yes, a smart operator like Clinton using the word "assassination" argues against that, but as a good bayesian I am not going to believe one improbable just because the alternative is also improbable.
If she did have an ulterior motive, I actually think that it is most likely that she was trying to fake Obama into overreacting to something that she could later claim was innocent. If that was her intention, she certainly learned her lesson, and there is no sense worrying any further over it.
But I absolutely reject the idea that her comments in any way imply that she would want Obama to get assassinated. That is, frankly, way way way beyond the amorality that you are arguing she has. Brain scan studies show that we have special areas of our brain that help (and sometimes confound) our morality in issues of life and death - there is a world of difference between being politically amoral and Machiavellian and being a certifiable psychopath.
Bill to C. Pluckhahn: Well congratulations are in order for unmasking me, especially in light of the fact I said in my first response to you, "I have voted Republican but would vote Democratic in a heartbeat if they selected candidates like Sam Nunn, instead of the McGoverns, Mondales and Dukakis." I have some other news for you, I have never visited Freeperville, and actually had to google it to find out what you were talking about. Everything is fine though, you are not the first liberal to congratulate yourself on defeating a conservative, when that congratulation was based only on "wishful thinking". The fact is, those who cannot defend even a simple opinion logically, almost always reach your conclusion of superiority. Too bad there is no basis for your celebration outside your own needs to feel adequate when you are only capable of subjective thoughts. Rethinking my earlier post, I don't believe I will move into your neighborhood, you have turned out to be just another boring Liberal who can't defend your opinions but are thoroughly convinced you are infallible in spite of your impotence. The evidence is plainly available if anyone wants to review our conversation. You were totally unable to answer any of the questions I asked, and you were forced to substitute cutesy little remarks in place of substance. You claimed to unmask me as a Republican mole, but it is your lack of the mental ability to respond cohesively that was unmasked.
I don't believe I will move into your neighborhood
Whew! Here I was worried that I'd have to be telling you to get off my lawn. Bill, it's been obvious throughout that you're a knee-jerk McBush voter who'd like to portray your preference as the product of careful consideration.
Look, it's okay. Seriously, it is. Even in a landslide, which is looking more likely all the time, McBush is going to get 40%, give or take some depending on how many of your party's whackjobs defect to tinfoil territory.
When Obama screws up, as all administrations do, you'll be able to run around saying you were smart enough not to vote for the bastard. That's not a bad thing. Everyone needs an opposition. Might as well be you.
Has it dawned on you that I'm not terrified by the thought?
Bill to Pluckhahn: Again nothing but cutesy remarks devoid of any reasoning. You don't even strike me as the type who would have a lawn. Is that just some more of your wishful thinking? As for careful consideration, you mentioned several good reasons not to vote for Obama, and it is obvious that you won't. Your vote will only be against "McBush".
It's hilarious to me how angry Clinton supporters are at Obama's nomination, best typified by the man interviewed by the Daily Show on June 4th who said he was gay and would now vote for McCain, a voice seemingly echoed by many Clinton supporters. Voting against your own best interest out of personal spite? You might as well have voted for Bush.
Bill to "it's hilarious": What is truly hilarious is how short the memories of the Liberals is. The left wing of the Democratic party was against Clinton in 1992 just like the far right wing of the Republican party is against McCain now. Clinton has always been a moderate. AFTRA, NAFTRA, and the reform of welfare aren't exactly policy that endeared the Clinton's to the Liberal left. That being said, when Hillary started out she also was a moderate, actually closer to McCain than Obama. She changed horses for the primary always recognizing she would run the National election as a moderate. This gay man you are chastising has always been a moderate, that is why he supported Hillary in the first place. Now he supports McCain also a moderate because he is convinced Obama is too far to the left for him to support. You speak like the rest of your genre, always casting others decisions in the light of your self delusions. Whatever happened to the party of the left that supports free thinking, hope, you can, and diversity, or are your platitudes only applicable to those that agree with you? A moderate usually wins, ask Goldwater, Mcgovern, or Dukakis. No one believes Obama is a moderate and his record supports that belief. McCain on the other hand has all the credentials of a moderate and will draw enough votes from independents to win. In case you haven't noticed Independent are Independents because they don't like the Evangelicals or the Socialists.
Bill, wipe that foam off your lips. Are you John McBush, trying to build up your resistance to Democrats so you don't start a-screamin' and a-swearin' during one of those debates?
You don't even strike me as the type who would have a lawn.
What "type" has a lawn? Anyway, I assure you that I have a nice, big lawn. In fact, if you get creative with Google, you could probably get a satellite photo of my lawn. And please stay off my lawn. Republicans are grass killers.
Bill, here's my lawn. Most it's hidden by the trees, but you can at least see the parking strips. Now how about a picture of your trailer next to the First Freeway Church of Jesus H. Christ the Capital Gains Tax Cutter?
Bill B. to C. Pluckhahn. My trailer house is a three story brick with a tile roof and a full basement. Third story has a ballroom and two bedrooms, 7600 square feet in all, which I paid cash for in 1981. It has a carport and a two story Brick garage that holds my Diesel Mercedes R-Class and my wifes Black Hemi-Chrysler. I have been married 49 years. I had $47. when I married my childhood sweetheart. We started out in a 24' trailer on a lot I had bought to build a house on. I never owned a credit card until you couldn't fly with out one and have been out of debt for over 30 years. I now have a consulting business and received a special appointment from the Dept. of Interior to the recovery of the pallid sturgeon. I regularly brief members of the CEQ, and was given the honorary title of "Citizen Scientist" at the first Pallid Sturgeon symposium in Minneapolis, by the chair of the Ruckelshaus Institute. I was selected for a panel at the Riverine Bio-diversity conference and was the only one in my field invited to the White House conference on Co-operative Conservation. I have one of the finest libraries in the Nation regarding Hydrology, Ichthyology, Ornithology, and the Limnology of the Missouri River Basin. I was guest speaker at the Kansas City Vanguard Club and have testified before Congress in support of Mariners regarding safety. I have been admitted as an expert in a dozen Federal Courts on Navigation and Admiralty Law. As for getting on your lawn, it doesn't look like there would even be room for my two size 11's, unless I put at least one on the street or the sidewalk. About Republicans killing your grass, I have never had to be too concerned about that because my yard has always been larger than a pool table. You still haven't said anything of substance, just things you feel will entertain your Obama fan club. I am not that disappointed though, in spite of my earlier conclusion I had finally found a Liberal with a brain. Unlike you I have no problem admitting it when I make a mistake, and that was a dandy.
Geez, a 7,600 sq ft house. You got me there. It's roughly the size of my lot in Seattle. I knew a guy with a 5,500 sq ft house. There was a separate "children's wing." I keep looking for those kids' names in the paper whenever there's a spree killing. I'm glad your finances have worked out. So have mine.
Bill to C. Pluckhahn. That is 4 floors at about 2000 square feet per floor. My lot is 18,000 square feet. My 8 children got jobs as soon as they were available, and were embarrassed to ask me for money after they reached the age of 14. There are no divorces, none of my children or grandchildren smoke, drink, or do drugs and none of the eight children or 34 grandchildren have ever been arrested. We keep this big old house as a gathering place, nobody lives more than a four hour drive away so they come home often. Me I am known as the book Grandpa, and I would be bragging if I told you how many of my kids and grand kids have graduated at or near the top of their class, and how many have gotten academic scholarships.Life has been good. I hate to admit it but no matter who gets elected it ain't really going to change much, it never has.
There are no divorces, none of my children or grandchildren smoke, drink, or do drugs and none of the eight children or 34 grandchildren have ever been arrested.
So they tell you, anyway. Good enough on the drugs and lack of arrests, but geez, are you Mormons? Not that there's anything wrong with that.
I hate to admit it but no matter who gets elected it ain't really going to change much, it never has.
Without Lyndon Johnson, there'd have been no civil right act or voting rights act. Without George W. Bush, there'd have been no $2 trillion tax cut nor a $1 trillion war. Without Nixon there'd have been no opening to China.
Without Carter, no Camp David accord and no collapse of dictatorships throughout Latin America. Without Bush's father, Scalia and Thomas wouldn't be on the Supreme Court. Without Reagan, the religious wackos wouldn't have taken over your party.
So, while a lot does remain the same -- which is good, 'cause you'd never want politicians determining everything -- who we elect does matter.
My lot is 18,000 square feet.
I once owned a 3,400 sq ft house on a lot twice as big as yours. I was always glad I did that, because it cured me of trophy houses. They are one of the five horsemen of the financial apocalypse, the others being new cars, trophy spouses (and the inevitable divorces that follow), credit card balances, and drug habits.
My motto is "Live below your means if you can." If things work out, then you can spend your later years doing whatever the hell you feel like doing. I have carried a credit card balance for three months of my life, and I can name the months because each time I got the bill and saw the finance charge, I walked into the bathroom, looked in the mirror, and said, "You fucking idiot!"
The difference between you and me is that I am a lifelong Democrat and have not a single regret about it. You're a Republican who feels uncomfortable enough about what your party has become to come to liberal websites to seek absolution.
But see, Bill, we're not priests and therefore we are not in the forgiveness business. All I can do is advise you to face up to your tragic addiction and shake it off. You can do it, but it must come from within.
Bill to C Pluckhahn: You are always good for a laugh, not absolution, confrontation. I always go where people think they disagree with me just for the pure hell of it. In truth you have been a disappointment, lots of bravado, but very little rational thought. I will just write this encounter off and label it "no challenge here", just like the last two, and keep searching for a worthy opponent. I am the ultimate optimist, I always think maybe next time. Think I'll go to a Republican board next and act like a Liberal. Have a Good One.
Face it, Bill, you're pissed because you've met your match.
Bill to C. Pluckhahn. You remind me of a flea slowly climbing up an elephants leg threatening rape. You might impress all the other fleas, but you are just another flea whose ambitions always involve getting in over your head,and in spite of your best effort the elephant won't even remember your presence.Carry on if you like, but this elephant is out trolling, hopefully I will attract a worthy opponent from a Republican Blog. I haven't been doing too well with the Democrats.
I haven't been doing too well with the Democrats.
Ya got that right.
Bill to C. Pluckhahn: That's really sad, having to resort to taking a sentence out of context in order to respond. I said:"Carry on if you like, but this elephant is out trolling, hopefully I will attract a worthy opponent from a Republican Blog. I haven't been doing too well with the Democrats". Rule #1. In an argument, when your opponent finds himself in a hole and has become so emotionally involved he refuses to quit digging and is not acting rationally, the humane thing to do is abandon the discussion. BYE! BYE!
Barack Obama's campaign has been far dirtier than Clinton's. He played the race card, not Clinton. Hill's 'hard working white people' comment was misquoted by you. It was originally hard-working blue collar vote but Donna Brazile and the Obama campaign resented the implication that it encompassed hard-working blue collar black people as well, so Clinton rephrased it to white which of course they jumped all over, AGAIN. Obama's disingenuous campaign began with a preconceived notion to play the race card to their advantage. They were aided by the mainstream media and their misogynist attitudes. Obama never made ONE comment to address the hatefilled sexism in the media and with his own supporters. Have you ever gone to pro-Obama websites? It was absolutely disgusting. Bloggers making comments how they wanted to slit Clinton's throat, she was a c**t etc etc. This is a man who espouses unity? Give me a break. Senator Clintons legislative accomplishments far surpass Obama's. He lobbied for a prestigious spot as Chair of the Senate Subcommittee on Foreign Affairs which deals with issues such as NATO's role in Afghanistan, and he does not call even ONE meeting because he is too busy pursuing his own ambitions? And upon further investigation, most of his so-called legislation was actually the idea of someone else that he piggybacked on and took credit for. And I am sorry, who you spend 20 years of your life with in church matters. His spiritual mentor, which is how Obama referred to Wright, is a wackado racist. I would not vote for Obama if her were running against George Bush
Bill B.to the "Anonymous said" who's post starts Barack Obama's campaign. A Democrat with a brain finally!!! It doesn't stop with Wright as you mentioned, many of Obama's supporters are as rabid as he is. What Hillary has just experienced is a coalition of the Whackos and the media defeating a "moderate Democrat" It ain't about sexism, though they used sexism, it ain't about racism though they used racism. It is about Ideology. Since all of the left wing portion of the Democratic party believe they have a "mission from God" to take care of the citizens of "small town America" as evidenced in Obama's own words;“And it’s not surprising then they (small town Americans)get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations." They therefore act accordingly, since they believe they are on a "Mission from God" nothing is out of bounds. This was obvious in the primary. What Americans have to decide is if they want people "Obama and friends", who believe they are on a "mission from God, governing them. It is obvious on this matter that a Republican and a Democrat can agree. I wrote in an earlier post:
What is truly hilarious is how short the memories of the Liberals are. The left wing of the Democratic party was against Clinton in 1992 just like the far right wing of the Republican party is against McCain now. Clinton has always been a moderate. AFTRA, NAFTRA, and the reform of welfare aren't exactly policy that endeared the Clinton's to the Liberal left. That being said, when Hillary started out she also was a moderate, actually closer to McCain than Obama. She changed horses for the primary in response to the radical left wing of her party, always recognizing she would run the National election as a moderate.
Your candidate has just been run over by the "RABID LIBERAL BUS, and their MESSIAH" It's not the first time this has happened in a Democratic primary, but you needn't worry, the Dems have never won an election when it has happened in the past.
As a long time Republican, now wanting change, I am for Obama. I think it would be a horrible mistake to put Clinton on the ticket as VP because I believe she will do ANYTHING to become President of the US...including collusion in an assassination plot. Actually she wouldn't even need to be involved...some of her followers are so whacked, I'm sure Obama wouldn't even last out a week as President.
Bill B. back: I don't think you have any worry, nobody is going to bother to assassinate Obama, when nobody that is rational even believes he will ever be president. Like I said earlier "Messiahs" never win, and the Republicans are not as dumb as the Romans were. Thankfully the majority always see through a "Messiah" only the zealots are blinded by eloquence. That is all Obama has, and it won't be enough, not even against McCain.
Bill B., you do realize, do you not, that with each new comment of yours, this old thread opens new vistas in hilarity? Word to the wise: When posting in bumper stickerese, at least try to make it fit on the back of one car, as opposed to the side of a semi-truck!
But please, by all means continue your rants. I can always use another reason to laugh.
Bill to C. Pluckhahn. After reading your posts, it became quickly apparent you were convinced your wit was superior to anyone else's, but like the Hyena which attracts little parasites like you,(fleas that is) you make a habit of laughing without reason. Where the Hyena may be affected, like I said in an earlier post, the Elephant is not. I am glad you recognized the futility of trying to bother an elephant but must confess I am not impressed by your choice of a new host.
I'm sorry, Bill, but I couldn't follow that. I'm too simple. Could you try it again? Was the flea inside of the hyena, or was the elephant chasing the flea? I am so easily confused, and I haven't even had my nightly quart of Macallan.
Which, owing to my fiscal prudence all these years, is no strain on my wallet. My liver is another matter.
Bill to C. Pluckhahn. There is no way I could do a follow up that would succeed in making you look any worse than your last post did, and even if I could I wouldn't have the stomach for it. Good Night!
'night, Bill. Enjoy the milk and cookies, and leave the whisky for me. Thanks!
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