6.30.2008

Is Obama Becoming 'Generic Democrat'?

I watched a little bit of Hannity's America tonight, the subject of which was "The Real Barack Obama". Hannity spent most of the program trying (and usually failing) to reconcile two apparently contradictory notions: the right's former favorite criticism about Obama -- that he's a demagogue who intends to bring a radical liberal agenda to the White House -- with their new favorite criticism -- that he's a pandering do-anything, say-anything flip-flopper, cut from the same cloth as Clinton, Gore and Kerry.

I've also read Paul Krugman's new editorial which is out in tomorrow's Times and criticizes Obama for being too "Clintonesque". While Krugman's position is a little bit more nuanced than Hannity's, it is nevertheless ironic coming from someone who had argued so fervently for four more Clinton years in the White House, albeit four from the missus rather than the mister.

All of which goes to show: if the worst thing they can say about you is that you're the new Bill Clinton, then you're probably in pretty good shape for November.

Certainly, there is more to the story than that. For one thing, I'm not sure that Obama's apparent shift to the center is quite as premeditated as everyone has made it out to be. It seems to me that there are a couple of issues -- like NAFTA and Israel -- where Obama has moved to the center and had probably intended to do so for some time. That Obama was going to turn down public financing has also been obvious for months now. But others are more a matter of timing and circumstance. On FISA, for instance, I have argued that Obama's hands were somewhat tied once Nancy Pelosi staked out her ground. The Obama campaign was slow to issue a position statement on FISA, and one almost senses that they did so through gritted teeth. Likewise, the Supreme Court decisions on the death penalty and the Second Amendment came down this week simply because this was when the Court decided to rule on those cases. So what might have been four or five isolated incidents stretched out over the course of the summer instead were compressed into a period of a week or two, and a meme was born.

Nevertheless, what does all of this really tell us about Obama? It tells us, I think, that Obama has a pretty keen sensibility for risk management, and tends to come down on the risk-averse side.

John McCain's best strategy for winning this election was and possibly remains the following: seize the center, while simultaneously portraying Barack Obama as an agent of the radical left. This was not necessarily going to be easy to do, since some of the right's favorite critiques of Democrats were likely to fall on deaf ears in the context of a poor economy and an unpopular war. Nevertheless, among a number of relatively weak strategies that McCain had to pick from, this was probably his best. Democrats have something like a 4:3 edge in party identification and they are going to turn out in November; the number of Democrats with an unfavorable opinion of Obama is no longer especially high and is likely to continue declining. That means that McCain is going to need to dominate among independent voters, something which might become more difficult now that Obama has preempted his move to the center.

Secondly, as Hannity and Krugman reveal, Obama was going to be criticized either way. Are there greater risks in being labeled a radical liberal or a flip-flopper? There are greater risks to Obama in the former. The 'radical liberal' caricature is more likely to bring things like Jeremiah Wright, flag pins and Obama's race into play, whereas the caricature of the pandering politician is familiar -- depressingly so to some voters, but perhaps reassuringly so to others. Moreover, John McCain is on relatively shaky ground to criticize Obama as a flip-flopper. As Obama surrogates have eagerly begun to point out, McCain's own flip-flops have been considerable. One of the benefits to being as wrongheadedly stubborn a man as George W. Bush was is that you rarely have problems with consistency. McCain does not have that luxury, if you can call it that.

In short, Obama does not mind so much being labeled a 'Generic Democrat', in an election where a Generic Democrat might beat a Generic Republican by 10-15 points.

Obama's decisions can perhaps be thought of as risk-averse. To extend Krugman's analogy, perhaps he is less likely now to win a Reagenesque 489 electoral votes and more likely to win a Clintonesque total somewhere in the low-to-mid 300s. But whereas Clinton pulled significantly ahead of George H. W. Bush in the summer and essentially never looked back, Reagan's move came at the last minute. He was probably inherently more likely to lose the 1980 election than Clinton was in 1992, even though he wound up winning bigger.

That does not mean that there are no risks to Obama. The flip-flopper label remains among the more damaging ones in American politics, and if Obama is not careful, it too might be used as a vehicle to bring in excess baggage: Who is this guy? What does he really stand for? So it will be up to Obama to bring the 'change' brand full-circle by denoting exactly what kind of change he intends to deliver. Instead of the compassionate conservative, Obama can portray himself as the principled pragmatist. Pick at least three of the four core issues I outlined the other day -- health care, the economy, the environment, and Iraq -- argue that they are at crisis point and that others must take a back seat, make clear that you aren't prepared to compromise on those, and put forward some policy specifics. Public sentiment on all four issues significantly favors the Democratic position, and if Obama does not waver on those, the electorate should have no trouble perceiving his consistency.

70 comments

Matt said...

I believe you mean "But whereas Clinton pulled significantly ahead of George H.W. Bush in the summer and essentially never looked back..."

Christopher Lee Carlson said...

Donning a piece of tinfoil hat here for a moment, but...

Yes, at this point there have coincidentally been a few Supreme Court cases that push some of the hot buttons on either side, like the death penalty and gun control.

So far that's just coincidence. But are there other such hot button cases coming up on SCOTUS's docket? I wouldn't put it past the Repugs to have timed a few cases out to try to pin the Democratic nominee, no matter who it was, into a series of "pick a side" decisions where they either have to trigger a right-wing hot button or piss off their own base.

Just a thought.

self-hating dumbocrap said...

Ha ha ha, you called 'em "Repugs"! What incisive wit! How punny of you!

This is why 51% of the country hates us, by the way.

Jeff C said...

I agree that most of these positions aren't really flip-flops but more fit into the category of "he isn't nearly as liberal as the cartoon character of him we created in our own minds". This applies to both liberals and conservatives. I think conservatives want to go after him on guns, etc and are frustrated when he takes a moderate position. With no other choice, blame him for flip-flopping. Liberals automatically assume he agrees with them on every little point. FISA, etc. shows that he is actually quite a pragmatic moderate.

Jeff C said...

Has anybody ever done a study on how much effect the "flip-flopping" charge really has on voters? I tend to think that most voters would understand that politicians have complicated positions that can sometimes seem contradictory. They also understand that sometimes people change their minds.

Furthermore, I'd suspect that swing voters are even less susceptible to the "flip-flop" argument since they are the ultimate flip-floppers themselves. Anybody that routinely swings from Dem to Rep and back must understand people changing their minds.

I'm not sure how you'd study this but I'm really curious how many votes flip-flop accusations have actually gotten over the years.

Any thoughts on a study?

Anonymous said...

"Repugs"

You really stuck it to them there! There's nothing you can't achieve through passive-agressive smugness!

You should be the change you want to see in the world, and I pity you if the change you want to see is snide partisanship, regardless of how reprehensible the conniving by republicans in power has been as of late.

Laura said...

Excellent comments, Jeff C.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the election is still four months off. Obama may be more risk-averse now, only to become bolder as November nears. That was my impression of how he played it during the primaries. It makes sense to me. This is a time to concentrate on building for later, such as voter registration, volunteer base, and fundraising. Most voters are not paying attention and won't be until after the convention. Why waste ammunition you are going to need later?

Lou Criv said...

The point on GWB just confirms my point. What do most Americans hate the most about him? The fact that he is unable to admit a mistake on anything (notably Iraq, but other issues as well). In other words, the American public really wishes Bush had flip-flopped. I think his approval ratings would be significantly higher if he did flipflop.

I'd like to see exit polls that asked more about this. I'm convinced not many people care unless they feel very strongly about the issue at hand (in which case its not really the flipflop but the resulting position that bugs them) or the original preflip position was clearly a major political calculation (Bush Sr. "No new taxes" & Mitt Romney's pro-choice campaign for MA governor come to mind)

I think that flipflopping will earn you distrust from people on both sides of the issue but people still only care to the extent that they care about that issue.

Has anyone ever asked about this in an exit poll?

Have you ever met a person that voted against someone because they were a flipflopper?

such sweet thunder said...

"So far that's just coincidence. But are there other such hot button cases coming up on SCOTUS's docket? I wouldn't put it past the Repugs to have timed a few cases out to try to pin the Democratic nominee, no matter who it was, into a series of "pick a side" decisions where they either have to trigger a right-wing hot button or piss off their own base."

I think most impartial observers agree that the two recent cases do nothing but help Obama. The D.C. case took the gun control issue off the table -- and it was going to be a hot button issue in November.

The death penalty case allowed Obama to align himself with Scalia on an issue that I imagine 90% of the population agrees. It actually was a bizarre decision: I would've bet all of my money that it would come out the other way. Kennedy is going to be written about for the next hundred years as the voice for the neo-religious right: staunch advocate of religion playing a more comfortable role in public affairs; anti-death penalty; but, pro-gay rights; pro-abortion.

Indeed, those two decisions, coming within a week of each other, are probably the most racy decisions we've seen in the last couple of years.

Anonymous said...

Excellent post, Nate. I am a reformed "Repug", now Dem, who views Obama as more moderate than some may have realized. Liberal, moderate or flip-flop, most of his plans are very good. He appears to be able to affect change, so he should make credible progress with those plans.

A simple truth is that we are all going to need a President who is hopeful, inspiring and motivating because there are some hard times ahead for this country. Obama has proven he can motivate and he can lead.

Blame said...

We always knew that a Democrat has to be Liberal in the primaries and dead centre for the General. In this I think you would find Obama & the Clintons in agreement. All 3 are pragmatists. You only get to do anything if you are elected. I believe Obama should do one more flop.

McCain has floped on just about everything. The big problem is that his most recent flop is a winner. He has abandoned his green stand and promised to drill America out of trouble.

Driling will not reduce the price of oil, but oil is money, and America needs money. In that oil futures are credit, it is money NOW.

Some time closer to November that point is going to be made. Obama is going to be painted as a Liberal Idealist who is not going to keep America out of recession.

It gets worse. Obama wants to go for Green Power. All good but the wind doesn't always blow, and the sun doesn't always shine. Nor is there hope of a battery powered aviation industry. Much can be done but poluting power will remain important.

So as stands Obama can be given (by Republicans) a big fat 0 on the Economy and Power. I am not saying that such an accusation would be fair, but I fear it would stick.

I would like him to be more flexable. something like "I don't plan to veto any power bill that has sufficient provisions for protecting the enviroment".

Anonymous said...

NATE -- SMALL CLEANUP SUGGESTED: A few typos (bold for missing word, ital for problem in syntax):

(1) "Likewise, the Supreme Court decisions [omit: this week] on the death penalty and the Second Amendment came down this week simply because this was when the Court. . . ."


(2) "Nevertheless, what does all of this really tell us about Obama?"

VOR said...

SCOTUS is done for the year, I think.

The next big "legal" thing will be the show trials at Guantanamo. That's basically going to be bad news -- for America.

If I'm elected president in November -- whether I'm Obama or McCain -- I close Guantanamo. It would be an excellent start to rebuilding our foreign policy image. There is a whole lot of rebuilding to do.

Anonymous said...

@Blame: You have atrociously oversimplified and mischaracterized Obama's energy policy and I recommend you go read up on it. http://www.barackobama.com/issues/energy/

Additionally all he has to do to fight McCain's latest flop is point out that more drilling just worsens the climate problem while postponing the inevitable.

Anonymous said...

Blame, T Boone Pickens, TX oil tycoon, has this to say regarding wind:

"You need a giant plan for America. Not the pissant 83 megawatt [windfarm] deals being stamped all over the country. There needs to be a huge plan from someone with leadership. It's going to take years to do, but it has to start now."

He also made this comment:

"Don't get the idea that I've turned green," Pickens recently told the Guardian in the Dallas offices of his new venture Mesa Power. "My business is making money, and I think this is going to make a lot of money."

I watched him speak on CSPAN. The man has purchased land in a wind belt. His company, Mesa Power, is in the process of building that giant wind source of energy.

Juris said...

As Nate says, the flip-flop charge cuts both ways, and IMO more against McCain: Bush tax cuts, immigration reform being two cases in point.

It seems to me that Obama's clear intention to seek a pragmatic position is reflected in how he has approached health care. His argument throughout the primaries was to the "right" of Clinton. He took some hits in debates on that but it will help him in the general election because he's got such a lot of batter proposals than McCain on this very central issue.

To me, Obama's biggest "mistake" in the energy area is the idea of a surtax on profits. It doesn't even sound good. Focus instead on market reforms (repealing the Enron amendment) in the short-term and on mileage standards and alternative energy for the long-term, with incentives to entrepreneurs and investors in the latter. (McCain's idea of giving $300 million to the creative entrepreneur who invents the all electric car has already been appropriately ridiculed: are we going to give this money to the Japanese or Taiwanese?} (I also think McCain stepped in it on the offshore drilling.)

nieddu said...

I'd be more circumspect in relying on the RCP (RealClearPolitics) polling averages.
RCP is selective in choosing which polls to use for their averages. Take for example VA which according to the RCP latest average is now 0,7 in McCain's favor. This average includes a poll done by
VCU 05/12 - 05/18 852 RV 44 36 McCain +8.0

But the same average does not include the following poll done by
SurveyUSA 05/16 - 05/18 600 RV 42 49 Obama +7.0


How bizarre. I've been following RCP for a while, this latest poll manipulation confirms to me, and many others, that RCP is a republican leaning site

Clem Guttata said...

SCOTUS is done for the year. That's why these major decisions all came out in the same week--it was the last week of the term.

The talking heads got it wrong... both decisions will help Obama.

On the death penalty decision, Obama's response highlighted his more conservative position on the death penalty than the typical Democrat. It was not a change in position, it is (regrettably, to me) his position. McCain will get no traction against Obama as soft on crime.

On gun rights, the supreme court affirmed Obama's position (not McCain's). Read Obama's actual statement (again, the pundits are spinning, not reporting).

Obama's intrepretation of the 2nd amendment was affirmed by the Supreme's--it's an individual right to own a gun but that right is subject to limitations. McCain's position is there should be fewer (or no?) limitations. Net gain to Obama.

As others said above, more importantly it's a huge plus for Democrats to have "gun-grabbing" minimized as a campaign issue.

Blame said...

Anonymous

"You have atrociously oversimplified and mischaracterized Obama's energy policy and I recommend you go read up on it."

But that WAS my point. Gop Atacks are based on oversimplification & mischaracterization. My point was to show that Obama is vulnerable.

"You need a giant plan for America. Not the pissant 83 megawatt [windfarm] deals being stamped all over the country. There needs to be a huge plan from someone with leadership. It's going to take years to do, but it has to start now."

I agree. However wind power is not a total solution because nobody has found a practical way of storing electricity for when the wind doesn't blow. For every wind farm you need something like a coal powered power station for wind free days.

Imagine the GOP atack. Fields of wind farms far as the eye can see, and all stationary. Man sitting in his dead battery powered car phones his boss. "I will be in for work in a few days when the wind picks up". Boss looks out across his empty dead factory. "Thats OK. We have no power to run the machinery anyway".

Now we both know that nether candidate is going to abandon traditional fuels before green alternatives are fully in place but elections are about peception not reality.

Obama can be painted as a green fanatic who rather see America reduced to 3'rd world status than drill. He needs to be more vocal to avoid that risk. Or can you asure me that all voters will read Obama's energy policy?

Anonymous said...

The CW and MSM have been WRONG for a year and a half. They are wrong about this now. Most voters are moderate. They are in the center, not on the left or the right. This is where Obama needs to be and it actually is where he's always been if you read "The Audacity of Hope".

Anonymous said...

I'm right in interpreting the meaning of SCOTUS as Supreme Court Of The United Sates?

pfed said...

Yes, anonymous, SCOTUS = Supreme Court of the US, just as POTUS = President of the US.

counsellorben said...

Nieddu said "How bizarre. I've been following RCP for a while, this latest poll manipulation confirms to me, and many others, that RCP is a republican leaning site"

This should not be a shock to anyone that RCP is a republic party stronghold. Just look at most of the blog entries, as well as most of the links. While there are some democratic leaning links, it seems (shocking, I know) that most of the democratic links are critical of Obama.

"Major Strasser has been shot. Round up the usual suspects." Claude Rains as Captain Louis Renault in Casablanca. RCP's links are a round up of the usual right wing suspects, and a hearty helping of self-critical links about Democrats (with rare self-critical GOP pieces and positive Democratic pieces thrown in).

However, I am disappointed to hear that RCP is failing to include certain polls in its averages, as I find its polling aggregations to be very useful.

On another note, to emphasize what clem said, the Supreme Court is in recess until the first Monday in October, when it will start hearing arguments for its new term. The court usually issues its most important decisions in May and June of each year, as it take several months for the court to issue its decisions on the most controversial decisions. The likelihood of the court doing soemthing to insert itself into the political process (before November 4) is very slim.

Anonymous said...

Why would anybody watch Sean Hannity? He is a political buffoon.

hosertohoosier said...

You are missing the point AS USUAL, in the Obamellatio that is the commentary on this site.

Flip-flopping is usual in politics, but I should think it would be more costly WHEN YOUR CAMPAIGN IS BASED ON THE IDEA THAT YOU ARE A NEW KIND OF POLITICIAN ABOVE SPIN.

Obama's flip-flops are not risky because they piss on his base. Listen to any Daily Show audience - the base is so entranced they can't bring themselves to laugh at Obama. Listen to... this thread, which bends over backwards to justify the various ways in which Obama has screwed left-leaning Americans in the rear.

But what is Obama's strength among independents? Where does that come from? Where does Obama's special strength in Iowa come from? Why is Obama the candidate of change? The answer to all of these has to do with his offering a new kind of politics. Tacking to the center is the opposite of the kind of politics that he, specifically promised.

At least with a Clinton, whether you are an intern or a voter, you know you are getting taken for a ride.

Mark said...

On FISA, for instance, I have argued that Obama's hands were somewhat tied once Nancy Pelosi staked out her ground.
Just who is the party's nominee? If Nancy tied-up Barack, it was only because Barack was willing. That doesn't exactly look like leadership on his part.

jsh1120 said...

Though it's unfair to put Paul Krugman and Sean Hannity in the same category, in this particular case they share a common mispercetion, I think.

Their problem (and that of most of the punditocracy) is trying to shoehorn Obama's views into the traditional liberal-conservative dimension that has come to dominate debate about public policy in the US over the last three decades.

As I understand Obama's perspective (drawn largely from his comments before he was forced to become a traditional soundbite focused presidential candidate), he is a pragmatic politician with views drawn from his experience as a community organizer.

"Ideology," at least in the simplistic terms defined by the media, is an obstacle to the coalition building effort Obama believes is required to move the nation beyond a close to 50/50 split over public policy.

Traditional liberals, like Krugman, and traditional conservatives, like Hannity, find such a perspective at least difficult to understand if not naive.

By the same token, it appears that Obama understands a fundamental truth about American politics that neither Krugman nor Hannity grasps; that a president can trigger fundamental shifts in public policy only if his approval ratings approach 60%. That, I think, is Obama's goal.

nieddu said...

@counsellorben

Yes, I had intuited long time ago that RCP is a tool of the republicans, even though they keep denying it.

Fortunately there is 538.com now.

Anonymous said...

No hatred from me directed at the likes of Sean Hannity—but I have my mind made up. So I dismiss what Hannity says these days simply because I see [Hannity] as a Republican/entertainment-radio-newsman personality. He's doing his "job."

Republicans and Democrats have been the two leading parties in presidential elections for just over 150 years—dating back to the 1856 race. Ralph Nader has it right—they both have too much control. And people vote along the two lines like they're choosing between sports teams. Red for Republicans. Blue for Democrats. How…simple!

A big part of my vote this year is based on that ossified two-party system…of knowing American citizens will not vote outside the system. Therefore, I think the perceptions of this year's election—as it pertains to the two parties—is either underestimated or underreported. So which do I prefer [in Election 2008]? …Democrats. Based on this f'd up Republican/Bush (or I should say, Bush/Republican) administration (and all applicable issues). Once again: how…simple!

Juris said...

Dear "Last Anon":

You're courageous position, to which you attach your name and reputation, speaks, I assume, for all the courageous "Anons" who post here. Your use of "I" is, I assume, just an act of modesty, since you are, after all, a true legion of anonyms.

But "we" will hold you to your solemn words, Last Anon. We know you'll stand steadfast, since after all, your backing them with your NoName.

nieddu said...

The obsession Americans have with guns has been an issue republicans have been successfully exploiting to their advantage.
Hopefully, this latest decision by the Supreme Court should out this issue to rest and induce these gun loving people to think why Europeans (with no guns) are enjoying a better quality of life than we Americans.

Just recently, I moved with my family here in France, a country with universal health care, excellent public schools, free university, good quality food, excellent wine. No charlatans infesting the airways likes hannity, o'really, of fox news and rush limbaugh, no stupid debates about creation/evolution, and no governmental interference in my bedroom or what I choose to do with my body.

Most importantly my taxes are not paying for illegal invasions of sovereign countries. I'm surprised to discover how many more Americans are getting dual citizenship and coming to live in Europe.

anonymous said...

Hannity is the definition of a media whore. Apparently one show wasn't enough for him-- he has to not only have his own show, but literally repeat "America is the best greatest country God has blessed the world with" once a day to demonstrate his jingoism.

Anonymous said...

Yep, Hannity looks and sounds just like the Jimmies Swaggart and Bakker, those hypocritical blasphemous whoremongering preachers.

Clark Miller said...

RCP is following its usual practice of only including the latest poll from any particular polling firm. Hence, they left out the SurveyUSA poll that was +7 because the new SurveyUSA poll is out and is +2.

Their "rule", if you will, is that they average the most recent poll from at least 3 different polling firms.

And, yes, they are a deep right wing site, so one should know better than to pay attention to their averages. Their only value is:

1) listing the polls (compute one's own averages)

2) paying attention to what the opposition is saying

Mark in VA said...

@Blame -

"the sun doesn't always shine."

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=a-solar-grand-plan

McCain is an idiot and if he wins I'm moving away from America- I can't take this shit after the last 8 years said...

Blame- you are still dramatically oversimplifying energy and sounding like an idiot.
Alternative energy sources doesn't just mean wind. Solar, hydrogen, waves, geothermal, and hydro (although this has many more downsides than all the other) are all part of the process.
Yes they all have some difficulties in coming into existence as serious alternatives now- largely through storing energy as you mention especially with wind.
However, think about the hydrogen fuel cell car right now, or the electric car battery. Five years ago people said that was impossible and that it was far away from being a possibility.
One thing has been proven time and again- when there is pressure when ingenuity (high gas prices in this case mainly, as well as ending climate change) that the technology develops at an incredible pace.
Obama understands this and wants to create thousands of jobs through green energy- and stop reliance on oil. McCain talks about climate change but had a 0% League of Conservation Voters ranking last year and 24% lifetime. He likes to sound like a maverick- but when it comes to environmental issues he votes big oil. the offshore drilling is like he said a psychological benefit- for the environment its horrible- it maintains reliance on oil, and costs millions of dollars that should have gone to making our energy safe and renewable.

Nick said...

Jeff C, your point about Obama and FISA is completely wrong. Obama claimed, on several occasions in 2007, that he would filibuster any bill that contained telecom immunity. Now he's adopted the "our security is more important" line.
There's really no defending him on his FISA flip-flop.
Once again a politician thinks they can throw progressives under a bus because we have no one else to vote for.

Anonymous said...

It is interesting that you actually believe Barak Obama will win the presidency. The truth is he has little likelihood of doing so if McCain runs even a half-way decent campaign. First, he has done nothing in his life that remotely qualifies him to be President. Second, the Democratic Congress is extremely unpopular, and voters are unlikely to give Democrats undivided government. Finally, the little we know about Obama suggests he is far to the left of a large plurality of Americans. When combined with the very left-leaning Congressional leadership, this trait is a sure loser. Flip-flopping will matter only so much as it reaffims doubts about Obama's readiness to assume one of the most important offices in the world.

Anonymous said...

Nate: "All of which goes to show: if the worst thing they can say about you is that you're the new Bill Clinton, then you're probably in pretty good shape for November."

I think this statement is probably right. That is why someone like me, who supported Hillary Clinton is so maddened by the primary outcome. Of the 2 Clintons, Hillary Rodham has always been more 'ideologically pure' than Bill Clinton, though she also does what she needs to win in terms of position-taking (like Bill C. and like B. Obama).

Hannity's attacks are obviously partisan. But Krugman's attacks fit in somewhat to what I am thinking now. My feeling is, contrary to Krugman: good, Obama is moderating.

But I'm also frustrated that he so obviously captivated liberals in the primary by trashing Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton. And now he adopts the same tactics that she would have used! I'd rather have Hillary Clinton if this is what happens, because you already knew she was more moderate-left, giving you a better idea of what kind of policies she might implement in office.

With Obama's primary and general election positions differing, I am truly uncertain of the positions he will enact once in office.

Dave G said...

To me it seems there are 2 distinct issues/worries with Obama regarding the last week or so, and one can be reconciled as long as the other does not:

1. His move to the center, or rather, a series of statements "suggesting" he's moving to the center (which indeed all came up at once). This isn't necessarily problematic because it may convince a few middle-road voters that it is indeed "OK" to vote for him.

2. Being wishy-washy. This is the key. If he turns into a milquetoast Kerry-esque insecure follow-what-the-GOP says and then agree kind of guy, then he's in trouble. As long as he keeps slamming these guys in the mouth when they say something stupid, he's in a better position.

David said...

I noticed that senate polls have been added. I really like the graph with probabilities of numbers of Democratic senators. 20% for 60 for cloture= :D

Obama-Richardson '08

Blame said...

Mark in VA.

I had quick scan of
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=a-solar-grand-plan

Pressurized Caverns?

The idea of storing power as mechanical energy goes back to clockwork toys. However I am having difficulty believing it is economicaly possible to store a significant portion of America's energy needs for say a week by such a method.

I am certainly not going to be convinced by a site that makes such claims and doesn't offer references.


McCain is an idiot....

You use that as a name a say I sound like an idiot?????

Try rereading my posts. You obviously have not got the point.

Anonymous said...

Democrats are likely to pick up seats in both houses of Congress. However, this will ultimately mean less than it appears. Many newly won Democratic seats are, or will be, in conservative or swing districts. These legislators are unlikely to support an agenda that veers left, and may differ little from the Republicans they replace. Activists and the media forget that most people don't affiliate with a major party, and aren't particularly ideologic. This Ohioan transplanted to Florida considers it extremely unlikely Obama will win the White House. With trust in government and politicians at all time lows, I suspect the country's politics will largely remain as they currently stand.

John H said...

Here's the other thing RCP are good for. Their polling average, unlike here, focussing on the raw number rather than the margin. It's very interesting to see how, in the horserace graph, Obama has been between 46 and 48 since 5 May (spending two days below that, four above) while in the same period McCain is plummeting from 45 to 40, peaking at a miserly 45.3% at the beginning of the month.

This graph highlights what a lot of people have pointed out - it's not so much that there's an Obama bounce but that there's been a McCain collapse.

Walt said...

I agree with the other posts here that RCP is a conservative leaning site, but I think we should all be fair enough to recognize that they still are producing some of the best political content on one web site of ANY group.

Do they lean right? Sure. But liberals ignore the site at their peril. It's clear that the moderators are smart, clear eyed conservatives who know their facts and figures (the comment sections are another matter entirely). Their polling data pretty much mirrored national trends and just about nailed the 2004 election. Personally, I like the site a lot.

Just because we might happen to disagree with their politics is no reason not to respect the site or the intellect of those who produce it. After all, the leanings of the moderator and most of the posters here are pretty well understood to be liberal, but that doesn't mean that the work is deliberately shaded to the left. Or does it??

counsellorben said...

Walt:

I was not advocating ignoring RCP.  I was expressing concern over whether they were starting to let their political leanings affect their presentation of information.

I criticize their links and blogs, but I find their polling information very informative (though that, too, is nothing when compared with this site).

counsellorben said...

John H:

Given the timing of the relative change in support, I still would classify this as an "Obama bounce" rather than a "McCain collapse."

While the difference is certainly due to the lower poll numbers for McCain, I would argue that this is because McCain's numbers in April and May were inflated.  McCain was receiving support from people disaffected by the long, brutal Democratic primary season.  Once the primary season closed, McCain lost those weak "supporters" as they flipped to undecided.  It is likely that a good portion of these lost supporters are Hillary Clinton supporters starting the process of coming home to the Democratic nominee.

Even though it is not what most people traditionally would consider a bounce (since Obama's support has not trended upward significantly), I think that is the only fair way to characterize the recent polling trends.

Alpha.dk said...

Blame:
Reread the article. As it says, the pressurized gas method is already in use in several places, including for this very method for various plants in Germany. Furthermore, I fail to see why an entire week's worth of power stored would be necessary; last I checked, the sun rose daily. They ran their figures with the federal 'worst case' scenario for sunlight, and as they say there would be several dozen thousand square miles of cells would need to be erected; hardly a good chance of *all* of those being cloudy at the same time.

Kayla said...

The Republicans (Fox News) will try out every line of attack they can possibly think of. It's telling that they are completely contradictory to each other as they are so full of ... it.

Jimmy the Saint said...

The CW and MSM have been WRONG for a year and a half. They are wrong about this now. Most voters are moderate. They are in the center, not on the left or the right. This is where Obama needs to be and it actually is where he's always been if you read "The Audacity of Hope".



Ed Kilgore? Dan Gerstein, is that you? As Jim Hightower said, "The only thing in the middle of the road is dead armadillos and yellow lines."

Cugel said...

"Nate: "All of which goes to show: if the worst thing they can say about you is that you're the new Bill Clinton, then you're probably in pretty good shape for November."

This is wrong. This is right:

Anonymous said: Flip-flopping will matter only so much as it reaffims doubts about Obama's readiness to assume one of the most important offices in the world.

What's disastrous for Obama is to appear WEAK! That's what "Flip-flopper" means! Someone who's weak and can't stand up for their beliefs: i.e. a 98-lbs. weakling who always tries to "negotiate" when the bullies of the world kick sand in his face. That attack is MUCH worse than being "too liberal."

That's the media driven narrative that destroyed EVERY Democratic presidential contender from Dukakis to Kerry and which Clinton barely succeeded in avoiding because the media narrative against HIM was so focused on his affairs with other women that they tried to paint him as "too oversexed" which clashes with "too weak."

You can finally see the Republicans finding their media narrative against Obama "he's not a liberal! He's a flip-flopper just like Kerry! That's why you can't trust him because you don't know what he stands for!"

Attacking Obama for being "too liberal" wasn't working anymore than similar attacks on Democratic Congressional candidates worked in 2006. "Scary liberal" just doesn't cut it with voters who want change.

Obama's rush to repudiate Gen. Clark when Clark attacks McCain's lack of epxerience is another major blunder.

Bush won in 2004 by telling voters "you might not agree with me but you know where I stand." Americans LOVE strength of character and refusal to change one's belief under pressure.

"Strong and wrong!" is better than "weak and right!" in the minds of most voters.

(Bush carried this to extremes, and it took six years for voter's infatuation with him to wear off -- Republicans STILL love him for it!)

How hard would it be and how "risky" If he would stand strong and tell people:

"I've got a plan and I believe in it and I'm not changing it just because some media blowhards and the Right-wing start calling me a "liberal." I'm charting a new course for America and you have to take your lumps. I'll take good ideas from wherever they come -- liberals or conservatives. We're trying to get beyond the divisions that separate us and recognize that we're all Americans and we have a lot of work to do to restore this country to the greatness we all know and love."

John H said...

@Kugel, I'd agree with you if there actually were any flip-flopping, but the Anon further up thread referred to by Jimmy the Saint at :22 is completely right.

Obama describes himself as a "former liberal" and all the evidence from his recent political writings and his voting is perfectly in line with what he says now. He gave a more left-wing impression in the primaries, but was careful in how he did it. He's returning to form now, and the only surprises to me so far have been his stance on FISA, and his mangling of what a "united Jerusalem" might mean. That's two - in a whole campaign.

John H said...

@Counsellorben - you're right, it is hard to know what to call it. But I guess we can all agree that whatever it is, it's the consequence of the dust settling. I just think that when we call it a "bounce" it distracts from the precise nature of the movement. People didn't flock to Obama - they just looked harder at McCain and found they didn't like it.

John Peterson said...

If I were Obama, I would be risk averse as well, since being Obama would mean I was a large favorite. That means not just shifting to the center, but avoiding debating the issues with the less favored, but more substantive candidate.

Still, there's a difference between seeming to be something and actually being something. It seems obvious, but it's a point often lost in talk of candidate politics, where even those who are not politically connected or interested talk about the politicians in the very language the political campaigns want them to use-- that is, advertising image-speak.

While Obama 'seems' to be moving the center (in order not to lose moderate Democrats), he may actually be doing so, since the tenets of radical liberalism are not the views of mainstream America. Still, I think the real Obama is more of a radical liberal than a Clintonian Democrat.

Whatever. I find Sean Hannity obnoxious. If he were honest, he would commend Obama for rejecting public financing, because campaign finance reform is a terrible idea and involved free speech violations. Then he could actually criticize Obama and his pundits for making the claim that by rejecting campaign finance reform for this election, he is somehow furthering and protecting it. Obama shouldn't be criticized for "flip-flopping" when the latest position he takes is the right one, for God's sake. However, if he gives a bad reason for it, certainly that should be harped upon.

The latest thing I see out of Obama (and surely it was there all along) is that anything he does that is outside of his professed policy stances and beliefs is just something necessary to get into power to do really good things. Shifting positions radically? Necessary to get into office? Going to a radical, anti-American church? Just trying to build street credit. And so on. Somehow I think these means are who Obama is, and not some sort of calculus of necessity in order to do good from a position of power. That is the basis for the GOP's new talking point that "Obama is just another politician."

Anonymous said...

"Nevertheless, what does all of this really tell us about Obama? It tells us, I think, that Obama has a pretty keen sensibility for risk management, and tends to come down on the risk-averse side."

then he is exactly the same as kerry and gore, and history has already proven that type of dog won't hunt. glenn greenwald is 100% correct in saying that this perennial notion that dems have to throw the base under the bus and jump "to the center" to win is wrong. it costs us elections.

there is nothing centrist about the FISA bill, it is far right--it is fascist right (literally, in the true meaning of the word fascist). most americans that know about it, oppose it; and most of those that don't know about it, would oppose it if they did.

i thought one of the things we liked about obama was that he wasn't risk averse--that he'd take on the repugs by taking them on, not by becoming one of them. as per usual.

the republican brand is in the same lousy condition as american automotive brands, and for equally just cause--obama started the general election with everyone convinced he was a toyota prius, so he spent the last 2 months trying to prove that he's really a chevy cavalier. smmmaaaarrrrtttt...

maybe it is time for th0se of us in democratic base to quite making excuses for our party leaders? maybe it is time we quit rationalizing be treated like crap? maybe it's time we get over our battered-wife-syndrome, and vote for someone else? if a huge chunk of us vote for nader in protest, the dems will learn a valuable lesson...mccain would win, but tell me, which really is the pyhrric victory--washington eternally run by republidems like pelosi (and seemingly obama), or a one term mccain presidency (which surely will only further destroy the republican brand)? which really is the lesser of two evils in the long term?

Pete Kent said...

It will be a double whammy on Obama -- he will be perceived as potentially a far left wacko and he is trying to deceive us about it.

Clinton at least had a record and a position as head of the Democratic Leadership Council from which to assert his centrist credentials. Obama has one speech, 100 present votes and Trinity United Church. And he only has Bob Barr (calling Sacha Baron Cohen!) whereas Clinton had Perot.

Because he has come from no where and is so slickly packaged, he is at risk of being defined by others.

His constant shifting of positions -- including the predictable backing off from his commitment to pull the troops out no matter what -- will destroy his credibility.

He will be left with the college kids, the yellow dog liberal Democrats and and African Amercians, if he is not careful.

That is not much of a base from which to win an election.

Now get off my lawn, you kids!

Anonymous said...

This is only a really great strategy if he can also get McCain to become Generic Republican. Generic Democrat versus Reformer McCain is one of the few ways McCain has a shot at winning.

(Reformer Obama versus Reformer McCain, as well as Generic Democrat versus Generic Republican, both go to Obama; Generic Democrat versus Reformer McCain and Scary Obama versus Generic Republican are about even races; Scary Obama versus Reformer McCain is the only one where Obama would be at an outright disadvantage. I don't think McCain has an analogue for Scary Obama; maybe Old And Senile McCain?)

- illissius, who is not logging in because Blogger with multiple Google accounts is a mighty pain in the ass

Blame said...

Alpha.dk

As I said there are no references in that article. I need the technical details from somewhere respected by the scientific comunity. I do not doubt that power can be stored as mechanical energy. I just question the scale & the economics. Are they still economical when you run out of natural caverns & have to start constructing them?

You are corect in saying that the sun rises every day. I have it on good faith even if somedays you wouldn't know it for the cloud cover. Err... you do know that thick clouds drop output from solar cells to something quite pathetic?

Anonymous said...

Yes, we really need an inspirational and motivating leader. Obama is it. McCain, this year is not for you. Obama has been the gracious, kind and honorable leader that we haven't seen in years. He is respectable and his decisions have been made with the larger picture in mind. He reaches for the grassroots level and speaks for the people. I'm a strong Obama supporter. Vote for Obama! Go to WHYOBAMA08.org!

Charles Pluckhahn said...

Gop Atacks are based on oversimplification mischaracterization. My point was to show that Obama is vulnerable.

For years, I've been listening to Democrats whine that the Republicans are guilty of "oversimplification." I increasingly regard this as an excuse for the Democratic Party's smugness, laziness, cowardice, and lack of new ideas.

Democrats do a horrible job of communicating. They make it hard for the public to understand what they want, and when someone asks a question or voices a doubt they tend to become defensive and call the questioner an idiot. They compound the error by calling all Republicans idiots, and by extension the public that voted for Republicans.

The tragedy is that it's really not very hard at all to boil it down to a simple set of messages, but the more liberal someone gets it seems the harder they are to understand. Then, when the Republicans talk in terms that a busy electorate can readily understand, brain-dead Democrats -- the real idiots, if you ask me -- turn around and call the Republicans stupid.

Yeah, they're stupid. They're one vote on the Supreme Court away from repealing just about everything we support. They tricked the country into a war, and they gave away $2 trillion to Bush's best 1,000 friends. They've got the Democrats so wrapped around a tree that we can't even tell anyone what we support without demanding that they sit there for a half an hour and listen to us yammer at them.

And, the kicker is that with the country truly going to hell as we sit here, the Republican candidate is going to get at least 45% of the vote and the Democrats will probably pick up only 5 or 6 Senate seats and maybe 15 in the House.

Someone's going to have to tell me who the idiots are, because I'm not at all certain that it's Bush or Cheney.

Mark in VA said...

"As I said there are no references in that article. I need the technical details from somewhere respected by the scientific comunity. I do not doubt that power can be stored as mechanical energy. I just question the scale & the economics. Are they still economical when you run out of natural caverns & have to start constructing them?"

Scientific American has been published continuously since the mid 1800s. It's a forum for theories and discoveries in across all scientific disciplines, and virtually all of its content is contributed directly by researchers. I'll only assume you hadn't heard of it before.

Here's a link outlining more of the research background behind the article the researchers published in SciAm for more of the layman's consumption:

http://www.solarplan.org/Research/Solar%20Grand%20Plan.htm

Geoff Robinson said...

Like the Australian election last year. The incumbent conservatives were never able to develop a coherent narrative on the Labor opposition leader Kevin Rudd. They oscillated between presenting himself as a secret radical, a flip-flopper or as inexperienced. None of these caught on with the electorate.

Blame said...

Mark in VA

My thanks. There were some usable references with that link.

Storing power as compressed air in caverns IS feasable.

However it is also clear that nobody has gone much beyond treating this as a local solution.

There has been no atempt to quantify the avialable suitable caverns in the way that the potential of suitable wind turbine sites, or oil reserves have been estimated.

There is no maths for creating caverns, just speculations.

In short I find this a promising technology but not ready to be sold to the American public as a clear and reliable solution.

You can't yet use it as proof that America need not invest in traditional fuels.

Anonymous said...

Krugman wasn't pro Hillary. He was pro Edwards...

Political Scientist said...

1. Flip flop charge does seem less effective given (a) generic ballots, (b) McCain's own movements, (c) the fact that 4 years ago we had a choice between strong and steady vs. flip flopper and most Americans can be too easily reminded of which they would have preferred ex post.

2. Look at the main weaknesses/potential narratives by rival camps for each person

Obama
-inexperienced
-an ordinairy politician and too calculating

McCain
-age
-warmonger
-economic cluelessness
-continuation of Bush

McCain can probably address age and warmonger effectively. I am not sure on the economic issues (unfair or not, Republican economic solutions consistently do poorly in polls during poor economic times). The Bush label seems more true today than last month (given oil drilling and tax policies, this oddly has been reinforced - I am in favor of drilling and I see this).

The charge of ordinary politician against Obama is non-fatal given the generic ballots. You could believe this to be true, but you still like the policies and personality more.

Also something is odd where McCain's image as a Maverick has really diminished since 2000 (which would have helped in using the ordinary politician label against Obama) and he really does seem "just like Bush to more voters" - I'm certain McCain's own internal polls and focus groups have picked up on this, but am guessing his campaign has decided to continue to pull to the right in hopes of securing the base and then hitting Obama on some other strategy yet to be developed.)

The inexperience charge is more interesting and could be potentially fatal to me. The more the economy is the issue as opposed to war/terrorism, the less salient it is.

It is also possible that Obama wows people in talks and debates and somehow deflects this. If he is able to do so, it would be a blowout (just as Reagan blew away Carter after the debates in 1980)

I experience remains an issue, it is a close race where McCain has a chance of winning, where the idiosyncracies of who appeals to the working class, what Ohio wants, who is the VP, hidden racism, hidden ageism, etc. all matter (and things like one candidate taking the popular vote and losing are all possible).

Clearly more upside potential for Obama, but a path for McCain getting to 271 is also possible.

信次 said...

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平平 said...

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平平 said...

^^ nice blog!! thanks a lot! ^^

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