10:45 PM. To the less generous commenters: I don't really feel badly at all about our projection in South Dakota. There were versions of the model that had Obama winning by 10 or 11 points, and there were versions that had Clinton winning by 7 or 8 points. In the end, I went with a sort of compromise between the two, and caveated in the write-up that Clinton could outperform those numbers if you use a version of the model that gives more weight to the trends inherent in the race, rather than assuming that the demographics are stable from state to state. (It's also probably the case that your margin of error is going to be higher with this sort of thing when you look at a state that has one congressional district as opposed to 20).
At the same time, South Dakotans behaved in a somewhat unusual way, in that Obama's favorability scores (on questions like whether voters would be satisfied with him as the nominee) were as high as they were in many states that Obama *won*. This was a state in which voters got a positive message from both candidates, and the late deciders broke to Clinton because she spent more time on the ground there. It may be instructive about what Clinton might have been able to do had she a more positive message throughout her campaign. There's a pretty good argument that the beginning of the end for Clinton was way back in November with "now the fun part starts".
10:32 PM. re: the comments. Nope, no bragging vis-a-vis ARG. It looks like the South Dakota margin is going to come in at 10 points (it might close a tiny bit as most of the unreported vote is from Indian reservations), which almost exactly bisects their Clinton +26 and my Obama +5. This is the whole argument, I guess, for combining polling with demographic sanity checks, which is what we do for our general election numbers.
It does look like we'll beat ARG in Montana, though.
10:18 PM. More from Sean:
"I fervently agree that the extended campaign has made Obama a much better candidate. On the night of New Hampshire, he turned a shocked and depressed staff around immediately. On his conference call, he explicitly told them the loss would be a blessing in disguise. And after contesting 56 contests, there is no doubt Obama's ready for McCain. He's salivating for McCain.
This is a candidate who has been through the gauntlet and shook up the world.
I'll have to put some thoughts together as far as Brian Schweitzer as VP. Jon Tester just threw that out there with obvious impery live on MSNBC."
10:01 PM. I don't know if this means anything, but to the extent I've been able to watch two channels at once, CNN's coverage has actually been much more critical of Clinton than MSNBC's.
9:49 PM. The Obama website has yet to update it to include Montana, but this little graphic deserves more credit that it's gotten for building a sense of momentum throughout the ultimately decisive month of February:
9:30 PM. The largest remaining scheduled moments in the campaign between now and November are the conventions and the debates. Is there any doubt that Obama is going to deliver a better convention night speech? Is there any doubt that, the first time he and McCain appear on a stage together, the contrast in age, height, and tone is liable to be pretty striking? McCain needs to figure out some way to wage a sort of guerrilla warfare campaign. If everything sticks to the script, Obama is going to win.
9:17 PM. Sean is somewhat less equivocal on Clinton's speech than I am:
"'We have won enough swing states to get to 270 electoral votes.'
I am very much looking forward to the end of the relentlessly cynicism. She knows most Americans won't know enough to immediately call out the deception underlying those kinds of effortlessly and endlessly repeated comments. The Clintons and their surrogates have peppered the land with outright contempt for the intelligence of Americans when it comes to building arguments. Yeah, there's a 1-to-1 map with winning a state in a primary and winning it in the general. Sure. The disdain for facts, the Lanny Davisication of political spin is something I am looking forward to putting behind us. After 8 loooong years, my tolerance for that kind of drearily self-serving cynicism is nonexistent.
As far as the content of Clinton's speech, while I am emotionally closed to her for her behavior this campaign cycle, that speech was not aimed at me. There were some very nicely worded turns of phrases that surely connected with many of her supporters, particularly that each vote was like a small prayer (though I think she stole that from Newman's closing in The Verdict). I understand that her supporters need to hear some of those things. Even chant Den-ver, Den-ver one last time for good old comfort. She isn't deciding anything tonight, it got decided on her. That was always the way out.
2012 is not an option. It's something to talk about for people who have to speculate, but I think if she really believed it were an option should Obama lose, she needed to speak to the people like me, to begin to try to open to her. And she made no attempt in that regard, nor did I expect her to."
9:11 PM. Back to South Dakota for a moment: the exits have Barack Obama having won the "other" vote (a.k.a. Native Americans) by about 12 points. Relatively little of that vote has been tallied yet, so the margin is probably going to tighten by a couple of points.
9:03 PM. The exits imply a 14-point win for Obama in Montana. The strongly divergent results in two relatively similar states are a good reminder of how much time spent on the ground can matter.
9:00 PM. Networks call Montana for Obama. Ultimately, it's pretty fitting that the candidates split the last two states.
6.03.2008
Grand Finale Night Liveblog II: Montana and Obama's Speech
by Nate Silver @ 9:59 PM...see also liveblog, montana, obama, south dakota
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57 comments
Congrats on your MT prediction, Nate. Looks like your prediction was much more accurate than ARG given that MT was called instantly.
Did I just see Barak "fist-bump" his wife?
The MT exit polls seem to have a third category for "no preference." Did any other state have that?
Commented on this on the last thread, but will re-ask here:
Any idea on when absentee/early voting gets tabulated in SoDak?
Thanks for the brilliant site. I can't wait for those maps to start getting bluer and bluer...
Obama is so much more classy and gracious than Clinton it's disgusting.
Jay: *Usually* early balloting tends to be tabulated sooner rather than later, but it varies from state to state.
Obama's speech: pure grace and class.
Clinton's speech: defiant and inappropriate; shoots self in foot.
McCain's speech: weak and garbled; low on content.
I think the three speeches tonight reflect the candidates rather well!
Maybe Obama should take a page out of McCain's book and giggle creepily after every statement he makes instead of looking so damn presidential.
Sean states the way that I feel almost exactly. It's time to put an end to the kind of politics that won't "put it's lot in" with intelligence.
"But start leaving, we must."
He already loves "The Wire" and Philip Roth. He has my vote. No need to start talking like Yoda too.
Umm, when will Obama come up with a new speech? We have heard this SAME thing a million times. It's getting old, FAST.
I really prefer the kind of even handed, sober analysis Nate's built this site's reputation on to the overtly personal and political commentary Sean seems to have started out with here.
Nate,
Thanks for the update; I'd thought as much, but am still holding out.
As far as Native American poplulations in SD, here is a BIA map with reservations highlighted. It roughly tracks to Obama's support in the reported counties, though Gregory and Tripp went Clinton.
Finally, Nate, who do you see the Brewers taking with #16 on Thursday? :-)
Jeremy: I think Nate's also had his share of political commentary here. Just read the top post of this thread.
What I expect from him and Shawn as well, however however, is dispassionate, impartial treatment of facts regarding the election campaign and outcomes. And that's what we've had here to date. There's no reason to expect that to change.
Jeez, the end of Obama's speech was way over the top.
Congrats Nate - you only have half the work from here on out: it's all Obama/McCain!
Check out Missoula county in Montana. With 56% of precincts reporting, it shows Obama with 1,484 votes and Clinton with just 99 (92% v. 6%). If that holds steady, Missoula might be the Obama's equivilent of Clinton's Floyd country in Kentucky (I think it was Kentucky).
Is anyone watching Fox? I refuse tune into their channel.
I can only assume they are reporting John McCain has won the democratic nomination for president.
Yes, Nate. CNN commentators are more critical of Clinton than MSNBC's are. Their sense is that she lost the opportunity to begin the uniting, to reciprocate his reaching a hand out to both Clintons. While he spoke about the country, she spoke about herself and her campaign.
Missoula is home to UM and is pretty affluent. I expected it to be a big win for Obama but that's just crazy. It may be that the precincts near campus reported first.
Been a big fan of your site for a while, great analysis.
Curious, when are you going to remove the Hilary/Mccain matchup? After she 'officially' concedes ?
Lisa, are the students still there at this time of year? They may be voting in their hometowns.
Lisa: Sorry, I f-ed up on Missoula . . . the numbers are right, but only 1% of precincts have reported (i.e., probably only one precinct). I thought it said 57% of precincts. Maybe it did . . . CNN's map changes sometimes in strange ways. It drove me crazy when trying to calculate turnout in Oregan.
Can we get a quick gloating post over ARG's face please? 26 points... Yeah.
Nate, one line by Jeffrey Toobin on CNN: the Clintons didn't acknowledge the moment of Obama's victory because of their "deranged narcissism." That got David Gergen shaking his head. . . but even he thought the Clinton's blew an opportunity, as did Donna Brazile.
Clinton is holding out for something. But lost a chance to bring her supporters over to the common cause.
Anonymous :10, a lot of students stay year-round because there are no jobs in their hometowns. What helps Obama the most is how many stay after they graduate, though. It's a very young town...half the permanent residents are under 35.
yeah, anonymous :13, the cnn numbers have been bizarre all year. In two different states they projected a winner with 0% of precincts reporting.
Shhhhh Ben. This site predicted Obama by 5, which is off by more than ARG (in addition to getting the winner wrong).
If Clinton really wanted VP, I don't think she would've spit on Obama and his supporters tonight by grossly trying to steal the spotlight and refusing to acknowledge this historic moment.
But if she wants McCain to win so she can run again in 2012, she helped herself tonight. Her supporters will be 100 times angrier now when Obama doesn't bow down before her with the VP offer.
Nate,
I'm surprised that you haven't mentioned St. Paul, Minnesota... as in why are the Republicans holding their convention there? What is it, 15-20th on the list of "swing states" for an Obama-McCain matchup?
Nate was wrong again.
He should get his "models" right before he publishes them.
Nate - you can do better.
Isn't it time to get rid of the Clinton-McCain election matchups ?
Nate's June 2, 2008 projection - South Dakota: Obama by 5
Nailed it!
It's true that Nate's prediction was more off than ARG's in SD, but his overall performance for the day is way better. And, most importantly, he didn't do a poll. ARG claims that they are accurately predicting events, whereas this website is experimental. ARG's results were, as Nate said, "batshit."
so... can you take down the clinton poll stats now? thanks.
Ben-
"ARG claims that they are accurately predicting events, whereas this website is experimental."
Uh, the motto of this website is "Electoral Projections Done Right." Clearly not the case.
"ARG's results were, as Nate said, 'batshit.'"
Yet they were closer than Nate's projections. What does that make Nate's projections?
Why is everyone so frantic to have the Clinton stats removed? Insecure much?
SD is down to 55-45 now. The true margin may be closer to 11 than 10, but it's basically a tie between ARG and Nate. Only people who don't understand statistics will say ARG did better because they "picked the winner."
There goes Pat Buchanan again saying Obama was "clobbered" these last few months. Losing by 4% or so is "clobbered" when you're on Buchanan's enemies list. Rachel Maddow rolled over per usual. All she has to do is look at the frakkin calendar to see it's been skewed toward Clinton's demographics. Plus, Obama hasn't been truly competing against her for a month. It's the equivalent to saying a basketball finished weak because their lead fell from 20 to 15 in the final quarter.
Howard Fineman reports that his sources say Clinton doesn't want VP. Yet she's pushing for it anyway. Like I said, to further alienate her base from Obama when he picks someone else.
In the Exit Poll question "How often do you attend religious services?", in Montana 59% of the voters said a few times a year or less often, while in South Dakota only 39% said that. That's a large demographic difference.
It goes some part of the way to help explain the substantial difference in votes. Poblano says "The strongly divergent results in two relatively similar states are a good reminder of how much time spent on the ground can matter." But I think the strongly divergent results strongly suggest these two states are relatively different from one another.
Could this site be any more pro-Obama? If you are going to run a site running electoral college projections from poll numbers, at least try to be unbiased.
Don't see why everyone thinks Obama has an easy path to the White House. Don't the polling numbers on the right say otherwise?
anonymous :13
I figured it out: those must have been the absentee ballots for the county. There was a huge push by Obama supporters to have UM students fill out absentee ballots before they left for the summer. That would explain the greater than 9:1 split, and explain why that count was in so early.
Both are true - SD is considerably more favorable ground for Clinton and she got a boost from campaigning more there.
WL, this site is so pro-Obama that for weeks it has had Clinton with a 10-15% better chance of winning the GE.
From Anon-MI:
Last anon: Good point about the exit polls. Religious affiliation and religiosity may well matter not just in the context of the primaries but also in the general election, in shaping the saliency of the various potentially mobilizing issues. Right to life is just one of them.
WI: Most of the commentators here may be pro-Obama but that doesn't make the data analysis or the site pro-Obama. Everyone is free to criticize the analysis by the blogmaster, including that it may be slanted (though I don't think so). In an interview published on Progress Illinois a couple of days ago, Nate expressed an interest in drawing people to this site from across the political spectrum.
WL, you contradict yourself. First you complain of site bias and second you point to the number LISTED ON THE SITE to suggest Obama does not have an easy path to the nomination.
I agree with you Poblano on CNN's coverage. I'm an Obama supporter and it was outrageously slanted. Candidates don't concede the day of, and I'm pretty sure they never have. It shows the power of expectations. They thought it would be a concession, and when they didn't get it they were outraged. They should get their journalist cards removed and just focus on the three speeches. Obama's and Clinton's were great, McCain's was a dud.
Holy moly! That Obama map graphic is quite telling. Look at that huge dark swath from the great lakes to the Mississippi. Barack's got his work cut out for him. That's an awful lot of bitter gun-toting whites to win over.
I think CNN's coverage was quite excellent, especially David Gergen's insightful commentary. The coverage raised all of the right issues about Clinton's speech, its contrast with Obamas, and the various issues surrounding Clinton as a possible VP. I hope to hell that Obama gives Gergan a central advisory role in his administration (assuming Obama wins).
Nate wrote: "I don't really feel badly at all about our projection in South Dakota. There were versions of the model that had Obama winning by 10 or 11 points, and there were versions that had Clinton winning by 7 or 8 points."
I don't think Nate should feel badly either. His model is really interesting and it is fun to see what it predicts (and it has had some unambigious great successes). Still, I do think that the model did badly in SD tonight (which is different from saying that Nate should feel badly). A couple things: (a) it sounds like the model had a 20 pt margin of error depending on slight adjustments; that is way too much flexibility to be happy with the model; and (b) Clinton's margin of victory (10 pts.) was beyond even the most pro-Clinton version of the model. That seems problematic.
Finally, Nate's note suggests that the model can kind of serve as a reality check for the polls. But is that how it has worked so far? That is, when the model and polls are both off, does the average of the two of them come close to the real result?
This time you UNDERESTIMATED the turnout in MT and SD by about 40%...
Look people. There was a dearth of info in MT and SD ... exactly one small poll between the two states. Nobody cared. The prices on Intrade were all over the place. Clinton put her last quarter in the slot in SD while Obama turned his guns on McCain. Give the guy a break.
Nate,
Have you considered the relationship between the size of the state and the impact of campaign stops?
Say that for every small town Bill Clinton visits, he gets another 400 voters. If he visits 25 small towns, that's a swing of 10,000 voters. In SD, it's a 20 point swing in the result. In North Caronlina, it's less than a 2-point swing.
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