As a prelude to some work Nate is doing on VP picks, one of the common conventional wisdom canards on presidential elections is that the presidential nominee can - and maybe should - pick a vice-presidential candidate who adds a particular state into the win column in the fall. For example, Monday afternoon on the MSNBC show assigned to David Gregory, an inane conversation took place about the notion that Rudy Giuliani could bring New Jersey into play if he were McCain's VP nominee. This highly questionable theory about just what electoral gain a VP can contribute deserves closer inspection.
Consider the rationales offered for many potential choices even now: Ted Strickland for Obama or Rob Portman for McCain because they bring Ohio, one of the Virginia options for Obama because they bring Virginia, or Tim Pawlenty for McCain because he “puts Minnesota in play.” Further examples are numerous. Bill Richardson supposedly brings New Mexico and the Southwest in general; other candidates are considered to have a strike against them if they do not bring an obvious electoral benefit.
The emphasis placed on such a strategic pick is born of two consecutive nailbiter elections, where the flip of one battleground state has determined the winner. Although it’s somewhat understandable that this conventional wisdom has emerged, the evidence demonstrates it’s hypothetically sketchy at best.
In looking at the vice-presidential selections of the past five decades or so since television has expanded the regionality of presidential elections, it’s clear that, in reality, both major parties rarely have nominated VP candidates as a strategic electoral vote collector, and to the extent they have set about deliberately trying to add a state with a VP pick it has almost never worked.
Taking a look at the Republicans and working backward, Wyoming (Cheney) was always in the Republican column except for Johnson’s ’64 landslide; New York (Kemp) had been reliably blue since the 60s with the exception of the Nixon and Reagan landslide years; Indiana (Quayle) and Kansas (Dole) had been reliably red since FDR except for ’64. Even Spiro Agnew, when he was added to Nixon’s ticket in 1968, could not bring Maryland into the Republican column until 1972 as the incumbent in a national landslide. Republican VP picks in 1964 (Miller, New York) and 1960 (Cabot Lodge, Massachusetts) failed to bring those states into the fold, and it’s hard to think Republicans chose Cabot Lodge strategically in a year where the Democratic presidential nominee was from the same state.
You could argue that selecting George Bush in 1980 was a strategic pick to gather Texas, a state that had voted Democratic essentially since the Civil War except for Eisenhower’s two terms and Nixon’s ’72 landslide. But given the larger macro forces at work in Texas, a state that voted Democratic for most of the previous 100 years and then hasn’t been competitive for Dems since 1976, it’s hard to chalk that shift up to the popularity of George Bush or appreciation to Republicans for putting him on the ticket. Put another way, it would be like Obama choosing Sebelius of Kansas and then Republicans not being competitive there for the next three decades and counting.
For Republicans, one really has to go back to Richard Nixon of California where a state flipped from Democratic (5 straight elections) to Republican. Even then, the popularity of FDR and Eisenhower were far bigger macro forces than the drawing power of a young Richard Nixon.
For Democrats, John Edwards obviously did not make a competitive state out of North Carolina, whose only post-Southern Strategy flip back into the Democratic column was Carter’s 1976 win. In 2000, Democrats won Connecticut for the third consecutive presidential year as part of a larger solidification of the northeast.
Although Dems won Tennessee in 1992 and 1996 with native son Al Gore on the ticket, bringing the state back into the Democratic column for the first time since Carter’s lone post-Civil Rights Act 1976 win, the fact that as the headliner Al Gore couldn’t win his own state in 2000 indicates that Bill Clinton had more to do with winning Tennessee in the 90s than did the VP choice. Similarly, the choice of Estes Kefauver in 1956 did not win Tennessee for Dems at a time when 1952’s loss of the state was an anomaly from the previous couple decades.
Lloyd Bentsen could not bring Texas back for the Democrats, the racist Geraldine Ferraro could not hold New York in the 1984 landslide, and Sargent Shriver in 1972 could not keep Maryland’s three previous Democratic preferences going strong.
The best Democratic examples of a VP helping with a state are Walter Mondale in 1976 and 1980, Edmund Muskie in 1968 and Lyndon Johnson in 1960. Muskie is perhaps the best example, simply because with the exception of 1964’s landslide, Maine hadn’t strayed from the Republican column since Woodrow Wilson in 1912, and then promptly went back into the red column afterward. Lyndon Johnson undoubtedly helped the Catholic Kennedy in Texas, but Texas at that time was reliably Democratic anyway. And Walter Mondale certainly helped the Baptist Southerner Carter in 1976 and 1980, but Minnesota had been a reliably Democratic state since FDR, with the exception of Eisenhower’s two elections and the ’72 landslide.
In order for a vice-presidential candidate’s home state to be a strategic addition, it would have to be true that but for the selection, that party’s ticket would not have carried the state. And you really have to think about how this would come about. Which voters would vote for one ticket who would ordinarily vote for the other ticket or stay home? This extra margin could be a function of extra in-state voter organization and/or extra enthusiasm that makes the difference in a razor-thin race. Such hypothetical voters have to be politically plugged in enough that they know they definitely like the VP nominee, but undecided enough about the two major presidential choices that it’s the VP who closes the deal. Not only does it seem a little far-fetched that such voters would be around in any meaningful numbers to tilt an important electoral battleground one direction or another, but it seems especially far-fetched in a macro contrast election year such as this one.
My pet theory that spins off this VP-electoral vote argument, untested and probably untestable, is that such voters are more likely to exist in small, typically ignored states with 3-5 EVs. For example, the pride for North Dakotans of having one of their own in such a high profile role. Or Hawaiians. Even that might not be enough, but it’s more in alignment with intuition about history-making candidacies capturing the imagination of voters who might otherwise have stayed home or gone the other way. This theory certainly dovetails with the best example in the last 5 decades: Edmund Muskie of small-state Maine.
6.17.2008
Can a VP Nominee "Win" a State?
by Sean Quinn @ 3:20 PM...see also vice president
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I'd definitely agree with your intuition. You might ask a different question, though it may not be within the context of this data-driven site. Is a VP candidate better when he is a "shore up weaknesses" pick or a "reinforce strengths" candidate? Do either matter, as long as he's a reasonable choice to be "a heartbeat away" from the presidency?
Most answers to these questions, I believe, are all but required to be speculative.
Several of the historical examples are somewhat faulty. In those cases a campaign tried to flip a state with a strong tradition of voting for the "other party".
That's a much harder task than it is to bring a state on the edge into your camp. Yes, some of that is influenced by the recent close elections, but even under the landslide scenarios on this site several states are very, very close.
A question to ask yourself, if Al Gore had picked a beaten up, paper bag from Florida would be have been elected? I think 3000+ voters would have picked a paper bag, at least if it was from Florida.
Virginia and Ohio look like they have the best fit for a VP tilting them one way or the other, probably more than Richardson at this point.
For VP's bringing their state, I would not bank on it nor would I ignore it. There are plenty of John Edwards out there with a "L" for loser branded on their forehead who look good geographically, but for who people just do not vote for. But there are also those candidates popular in their state who can give you a 3-5% boost.
Nice analysis but is there any way you can post a link to a more readable version of the table?
The problem with your Texas conclusion is that someone from TX has been on the Republican ticket every time since Bush was the VP selection except for 1996.
To first anonymous comment - LOTS of Jews in Florida came out to vote for the first Jew on a major ticket. The VP choice did not cost Gore Florida - in fact it was probably a major factor in his choice of Lieberman.
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Sean, nice post, which reinforces my intuition about the subject. By the logic of your closing argument, Schweitzer would be a solid pick, as the pride of Montana.
I also don't get the "balancing pick" idea. I mean, does anyone really think "I don't trust Obama on foreign policy, but if he tabs a foreign policy wonk for VP that helps"? If so, why? Can't the foreign policy wonk, be it Biden or Richardson or whoever, be just as effective of an adviser as secretary of state? It seems like the "balancing pick" just highlights a supposed weakness of the candidate.
My general intuition is that you don't particularly need your VP to inspire, or "bring a state". You just need your VP to not be a distraction and to reinforce your core messages.
I think you are making some sweeping assumptions here. This one kind of sticks out: you say, "in order for a vice-presidential candidate’s home state to be a strategic addition, it would have to be true that but for the selection, that party’s ticket would not have carried the state."
I disagree. This a pretty narrow definition of a wise strategic addition. For example, if Obama picks Evan Bayh and McCain is forced to spend more money and time in Indiana than he would have otherwise, this may still be a wise strategic decision for Obama, even if McCain carries the state in November. Same could hold true with Schweitzer, Napalitano, Hagel (for the competitive Nebraska CDs), and even Sam Nunn.
It seems to me, and in the spirit of the methodology of this site, that the question is not properly formed.
The fundamental question should be whether a candidate overperforms what would be expected in the VPs home state or region. Winning or losing is a combination of several factors and, being a binary outcome, it hides meaningful information.
That is, using regression analysis, we should be able to predict a Presidential candidate's performance in each state, absent any specific VP nominee. Then we can look at the ticket's actual performance in the VP nominee's home state and region and estimate any difference between actual and predicted.
Not an easy analysis to do, but at least it's a real analysis of the "effect" of VP choice.
The evidence that I've seen suggests that a certain home-state VP has to be well-liked and have cross-over appeal in order to move the state.
Look at all the recent polls at http://www.surveyusa.com. Rendell helps Pennsylvania only a little (far less than Edwards does). Romney hardly helps Massachusetts at all (less than Huckabee). However, Romney does help quite a bit in Michigan, where his father was quite popular, and his economic credentials are well liked.
this blog is really great !
I like your analysis about which types of states a VP could make a difference. Maybe a state like Montana and their Gov?
Oh and I think you left out 84 as a year that the Republicans won New York in your 1996 analysis of Dole-Kemp.
Nate,
New SUSA poll in KY: McCain +12
You don't have to win a state to matter. If the VP is from a large state or requires diversion of resources to a state with numerous media markets by the opponent, that is a win possibly.
Also, check out previous work on VP picks here, from a political scientist at GW:
http://www.themonkeycage.org/2008/02/the_democratic_veepstakes_take.html
Oops, let's try that again:
http://www.themonkeycage.org/2008/02/
the_democratic_veepstakes_take.html
Some political science articles that cover this topic:
The "Veepstakes": Strategic Choice in Presidential Running Mate Selection
Author(s): Lee Sigelman and Paul J. Wahlbeck
Source: The American Political Science Review, Vol. 91, No. 4, (Dec., 1997), pp. 855-864. Explains why a particular candidate is chosen.
Choosing the Vice President
Author(s): Michael Nelson
Source: PS: Political Science and Politics, Vol. 21, No. 4, (Autumn, 1988), pp. 858-868. Examines the historic record of choosing the VP.
To name just two...there are loads of academic research material on any number of subjects on Google Scholar. Political Science has come an awful long way in regards to statistical analysis over the last two decades.
Under no circumstances should you base your understanding of political science on any undergraduate experience you had. Even poli-sci majors, hate to tell you, but we reduced the complexity and left out an awful lot of the methods and research when you learned it.
On another note, you guys might like this pdf from Gelman which basically shows that we accurately predict who will win the presidency four to five months out...
"the racist Geraldine Ferraro"
Pointless, gratuitous cheap shot.
Every time Sean posts he dilutes the quality of this site.
New PPP Poll in Ohio, Obama +11
http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/PPP_Release_Ohio_61708.pdf
IMO, this whole point about VPs and tipping over a state (which has been debated here and in other places) is being debated too broadly for any reasonable conclusions.
I don't think that any reasonable person would argue that a local son/daughter VP is going to change a 10, 20 or 30% difference between the winning and losing candidate.
However, when you get to absolute nail biter states, surely there would be a difference in having a loved local son/daughter on the ticket.
The best example I can think of is Ohio on 2004 and (to an extent) Florida in 2000 (Joe Lieberman may have had a similar effect on Florida's Jewish population, but that's debatable).
Conversely, a Kemp in 1996 or a Ferraro in 1984 weren't going to change the equation, because of the huge gap between the candidates.
In this election, the two states which might be tipped over by a local son/daughter VP candidate AND which have enough votes to make it worthwhile to do so (which has been my biggest concern about Gov. Schweitzer as a possible VP candidate) are Ohio and Virginia.
Now it may turn out that Ohio and/or Virginia are won by a handy margin by either side. But right now, they look to be very close, and every little bit helps... (plus, they both have enough EVs that if a good match can be found, it's a marriage made in heaven).
JRVJ
Paul Gurian and I have been developing a statistical model explaining state-level election outcomes, and found that VP's buy a candidate about 2 pts in their home state.
Sean: "My pet theory that spins off this VP-electoral vote argument, untested and probably untestable, is that such voters are more likely to exist in small, typically ignored states with 3-5 EVs."
Hmm. My theory is that a VP pick can help in the VP's home state by about 1-3%, probably at the higher end of that range in smaller states, as you point out.
Overall, though, the VP pick can, maybe, shore up a close state. Thus, no one really thinks Sebellius can swing Kansas, because it's not close, whereas Warner, Webb, or Kaine, could help in VA, where there is a close margin.
It's probably untestable though, like your theory that it counts more in small states. That said, Nathan's 3:28p post suggests some evidence for the 'small swing' theory.
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I second Mikey's comment...a completely unnecessary shot at Ferraro. Commentary like this adds nothing to the stated purpose of this site and devalues the otherwise fantastic work at 538.
In 2000, I was seriously more attracted to the vp choices of both candidates...opining at the time that I wished Cheney & Lieberman were the nominees. In the end, I voted libertarian, as I was unsatisfied with either candidate. Now, 8 years into the Cheney doctrine, I want a solid, decent VP, just in case he's as powerful as Cheney was. I say all that to say vp in the public mind has changed somewhat because of Cheney...and I think the reinforcing idea trumps every other criteria.
I think a good, but rough methodology is to compare the national swing for or against one party, with the swing in the home states of vice-presidential picks. Picking a VP from a state doesn't guarantee a win, but it should at least provide a 10 point boost. My hypothesis is that more important than the size of the state, is the length of incumbency of the "favourite son".
In 2004 there was 3 point swing to the Republicans. Bush won North Carolina by about 12.5 points in 2004, as opposed to 13 points in 2000. So with Edwards there was a relative (actual swing minus national swing to Kerry) swing of about 3.5 points - possibly larger, in that Gore was a southerner, while Kerry wasn't.
So how about Lieberman... In 2000 there was an 8 point swing to the GOP. Gore won Connecticut by 17.5 points, whereas Clinton (I am looking at the two-party margin, so factoring out Perot) won by 20 points. While Gore did 8 points worse than Clinton in 1996, Connecticut remained close - a relative swing of 5.5 points. Of course, is this explained by regional trends? Lets compare to Massachusetts: Clinton won by 37 points (two-party share) while Gore won by 29 points. So it looks like the 8 point swing to the GOP took place in the North-east too - except in Connecticut where it may have been dampened (slightly) by Lieberman.
Now, 1996 presents an interesting case - a congressman from a big state on the national ticket.So we can look at the difference in Kemp's congressional district, as well as statewide.
Clinton won New York by 19 points in both 1992 and 1996. In 1992 he won nationally by 7 points, while winning by 9.5 points in 1996. So, Kemp's effect could only have been marginal. If you look at a map of upstate New York, the Republicans did markedly worse in 1996 - winning very few counties. The one place where that bloc held, however, was in the western part of the state. However, 3 of the 4 counties in Kemp's old congressional district went for the Dems, whereas 3/4 had gone for Bush in 1992.
Finally, how about Bentsen. Reagan on Texas by 30.5 points in 1984, while winning nationally by 18 points. Bush won nationally by 8 points, only winning Texas (his home state) by 12.5 points. So there may well have been a sizable (~8 points plus a 10 point national swing) Bentsen effect - not enough to win the state, but remember that Dukakis picked Bentsen earlier, when his polling was much more favourable.
How does this compare to other states in the south/southwest?
Dukakis did well (relatively) in Oklahoma. Reagan had won by 38 points, while Bush only won by 16.
In Arkansas, Reagan had won by 22 points in 1984, while Bush won by 14. Thus Dukakis' swing there was smaller than the national average. Similarly Reagan won Louisiana by 22 points, while Bush won by 10. A swing close to the national average.
If you look at a county map of North Texas and Oklahoma, there is a marked improvement for the Democrats, that may well be attributable to Bentsen.
So it really only looks like Bentsen made a big difference - albeit not enough to win Texas. Nonetheless, Texas was about as close as Ohio, Michigan and Arizona (and closer than Florida) in 1988.
This should counter the notion that VP's make no difference unless they are in a small state. At the same time, it is rare that a vice presidential candidate can make a difference, unless they have a long history of serving and a good record. Kemp served a long time, but in the house of reps, not the senate. Moreover, it is not clear that there is a lot of pork or legislative accomplishments he could point to.
I think that it is possible that wildly popular governor could bring a close state into play. Senators and Congressmen I believe are meaningless unless they happen to have wildly popular governors before that.
Obama has said that his VP criterion will be who he wants as his closest and final adviser.
I agree with you. And I have the perfect candidate as an Obama VP -- Gov. Brian Schweitzer who could flip Montana and probably help in some other Western states as well as the Hillary states. There are many reasons to consider him.
Good analysis of the historical record. I also agree that the "VP pick winning a state" angle is way overhyped.
Martin Wattenberg, a political scientist at UC Irvine, looked at the impact of vice presidential preferences on the vote in a 1995 APR article. Basically, the argument is that a VP would only matter electorally if he/she got people to vote for the presidential candidate who was less preferred (even if slightly less preferred).
He found that, in surveys taken before the election, that only 10% of people liked one party's VP candidate better but the other party's Pres candidate better. And out of those, only about 10-15% ended up voting for the ticket with the more preferred VP candidate.
So in other words, a good VP can MAYBE get you about 1% in the national popular vote (that's assuming your VP doesn't hurt you with any voters, which is a big assumption). Of course, it stands to reason that in the VP's home state the effect could be bigger, but as you show, the effect is still likely to be in the low single digits, at best.
So, bottom line, a VP probably only can flip a state if it's extremely close (< 2%) to begin with, and the candidate is very popular with voters in that state not already likely to support the presidential candidate.
It's also worth noting that VP picks are probably as electorally relevant (that is to say, marginal, but nonzero) for how they reflect on the Presidential candidate (leadership, priorities, etc.) than they are in directly translating into votes based on support for the VP candidate.
From reading that table, my completely unscientific conclusion is that only Nixon, Muskie, and Gore can be argued as having anomalously flipped their home state. I'd like to see Nate's presumably much more scientific take.
Interesting because if the VP affects the election little, Obama would have more freedom in picking who he wanted personally. There are many big states polling close and a 1% bump might make the difference. The safest VP pick for Obama strikes me as John Edwards. With Southern identity, populist appeal, and name recognition, he casts a wide net in the following very close states: VA, NC, OH, MI, IN. I can't think of any other VP choice who would boost the ticket in all those electorally rich states and even in much of FL. His negatives are a lot lower than Hillary's in terms of galvanizing opposition votes. And while women will not vote for McCain, white males may and Edwards probably has their ear more than Hillary does.
The question I wonder about is if Obama prefers someone as his VP who, while not having high negs certainly, has less electoral appeal (Sebelius for example), would he be willing to bet that he can win anyway, with the running mate he prefers to work with in his administration? My uneducated guess is no. He'll decide it's not worth the gamble and ultimately play it safe. Among a short-ish list of VPs he finds good enough for his administration, he'll go with the best vote bumper. But maybe I'm wrong, and in the spirit of new politics, the VP choice will be less conventional.
Racism means two and only two things:
1) the belief that a person is inferior or superior by virtue of their race. Hatred of a race.
2) a policy based on race (discrimination)
There's is absolutely no evidence that Congresswoman Ferraro is guilty of the former. Furthermore, when she spoke about Obama achieving what he has in part because of his race, she points out a policy based on race. She does not endorse any herself. Racism does not mean saying something that hurts a black person's feelings.
So Sean is either ignorant of the meaning of the term racism. Or worse, understands what racism means and slandered Ferraro anyway.
Okay, I'm kind of a moron for not having clicked "There's More..." before. The cheap shot at Ferraro is completely unnecessary. I'm hardly a fan of hers either, but that was just ridiculous, and hurts your credibility.
I appreciate some political (rather than statistical) analysis every once in awhile, but Sean's style just does not fit with the rest of this site. At least Nate makes an effort to have an even hand and a maturity level that indicates that he graduated from high school.
One of the things I love about this site is the quality of not just the authors, but the commenters.
Sean, count me among those who would rather see this site stick more closely to objective, and classy, analysis. I don't want to read a debate about Ferraro, unless there are numbers to back it up.
I like your small state hypothesis, and I wonder if this has to do with the retail nature of small-state politics. Is it possible that the average person in a small state has had more 1st-, 2nd-, or 3rd- degree interaction with prominent politicians of their states, and this makes them more likely to vote for those politicians?
3:16 anonymous -- great link, thanks.
Nazgul35, also great links. I just finished reading the Gelman paper. I agree that there is a lot more to predicting election results than the media "narrative," which is why I come here. However, let's not overstate the historical accuracy of election predictions. Remember Al Gore.
Intuitively, the premise of the Gelman paper makes sense -- that the more people learn about candidates, the more predictable their behavior becomes. This is sort of the reverse of how I was thinking about this election: I was thinking of voter preferences evolving as a random walk, starting from today's polls. The alternative (but, I believe, equivalent) interpretation is that today's polls are a measure of the actual results plus a random walk backwards through time as voters become increasingly more ignorant.
The following quote in the Gelman article caught my attention:
At the start of the campaign, voters do not have the information necessary to make enlightened voting decisions. Gathering this information is costly, and most citizens have no particularly good reason to gather it in time for the pollster's visit, so long as it can be gathered when needed on election day.
The Gelman paper was published in 1994, based on an article originally published in 1993. The internet was not really a factor in politics at the time. I wonder to what extent the internet has reduced the cost of gathering information, and if the subsequent analysis still holds. I suspect that it does not, and this is one of the reasons the Clintons were caught off guard. Obama was able to quickly sell himself over the internet in a way that someone like Gary Hart never could. Sure, it was to a relatively small percentage of highly interested voters, but those are the people who caucus. Towards the end of the primaries Rasmussen put out a poll showing Obama with a 20 point lead among frequent internet users, but roughly tied with Clinton among everyone else.
Finally, I think the paper makes another interesting point that is relevant to Nate's recent work: voters respond in the short term to entirely predictable events, such as party conventions or, say, Clinton's concession. This short-term bounce is, however, temporary.
Nazgul35, if you have any more relevant links, I'd love to see them.
PS -- Sean, I believe you forgot to include the 1984 Republican victory in your Dole-Kemp row.
Lyndon Johnson undoubtedly helped the Catholic Kennedy in Texas, but Texas at that time was reliably Democratic anyway. And Walter Mondale certainly helped the Baptist Southerner Carter in 1976 and 1980, but Minnesota had been a reliably Democratic state since FDR, with the exception of Eisenhower’s two elections and the ’72 landslide.
Texas was a reliably Democratic state in terms of not really having a state level Republican Party with any kind of viability, but it had voted for (native son, admittedly) Republican Dwight D. Eisenhower in the last two elections, and Kennedy only won it by two points.
As to Minnesota, I agree that Carter would probably have won it in 1976 regardless (although Carter did worse outside the South than Humphrey had eight years earlier), but in 1980 Carter did absolutely horribly in the electoral college, losing Democratic standbys like Massachusetts, and I think Mondale almost certainly carried Minnesota for him that year. It's also worth noting that the precise extent of Minnesota's Democraticness in these years is unclear, because it almost always had a native son somewhere on the Democratic ticket - Humphrey in 64 and 68, Mondale in 76, 80, and 84. McGovern, from nextdoor South Dakota, lost it in 72, and Kennedy won it narrowly in 60, and Dukakis won it, but I don't think the favorite son factor should be ignored.
In spite of the fact that the Democrats had won California for the last several election cycles when Eisenhower won it in 1952, that was almost certainly not attributable to Nixon. Nixon was a not particularly popular Senator whose only statewide race had been a narrow, red-baiting victory over Helen Gahagan Douglas two years before. Four years earlier, very popular incumbent governor Earl Warren (who had before that been Attorney General, and thus had been elected statewide numerous times), was unable to carry the state for Tom Dewey. Eisenhower's victory in California had to do with the fact that Eisenhower won everywhere outside the deep South, not anything to do with Nixon's (largely non-existent) popularity in the state.
I disagree. This a pretty narrow definition of a wise strategic addition. For example, if Obama picks Evan Bayh and McCain is forced to spend more money and time in Indiana than he would have otherwise, this may still be a wise strategic decision for Obama, even if McCain carries the state in November.
Alternately, if picking Rendell or Richardson makes McCain give up on contesting those states, even if they would have gone Democratic anyway, that also seems like a worthwhile investment. (I do think that either of those candidates would pretty easily put their home states out of reach for McCain, but I also think there's fairly strong other reasons that they shouldn't be considered.)
Yes - the '84 Kemp thing was a casualty of some spreadsheet capture issues. Republicans won NY in 1984. Apologies.
For those who have brought it up - I considered going into the opportunity cost argument, that picking a VP might put a state in play more than it otherwise would have been, thereby forcing the other side to spend finite resources defending turf they might not have otherwise chosen to defend.
It's definitely an argument to consider, but we're talking about tiny bumps at the margins. Sometimes a state is super close, like Florida in 2000, so you can't dismiss the idea outright. But I chose not to explore this on purpose because the more important point of emphasis is the bigger picture. And the big picture is that actual VP impact is disconnected from the way it is typically discussed in commentary and by pundits.
As for the boo-hooers and drama queens about Ferraro and her diarrhetic commentary, puh-leeze. She's an adult in the public sphere; she's a grownup who has to own her behavior and I happened to notice it. It's also not a cheap shot; I'd say it to her face and don't you doubt that for a New York minute. There I go destroying the integrity of the world again. Oh Noes!!1!1111!!!!!1! What will we do? Where will we go? Can we trust Nate's Virginia regression number now?
By the way, Mainewas one of only two states that Humphrey carried which was not carried by Kennedy in 1960 (the other was Washington state)
Also, one should not really expect any of the following to have carried their home state:
1) Henry Cabot Lodge, a reasonably popular former Senator from Massachusetts. The only problem was that the Democratic presidential candidate was the guy who deprived him of his Senate seat eight years before.
2) William Miller, an obscure congressman from upstate New York, virtually unknown in the rest of the state (would picking
3) Spiro Agnew, a not terribly popular governor of Maryland elected only two years before as a result of the fact that a segregationist had won the Democratic nomination
4) Sargent Shriver, an emergency replacement candidate who had never held elective office in the state of Maryland.
5) Geraldine Ferraro, an obscure congresswoman from Queens, virtually unknown in the rest of the state.
6) Jack Kemp, a very conservative Buffalo area congressman and former cabinet secretary, who had never held statewide office, and certainly attracted no particular sympathy downstate, where most of the votes are.
7) John Edwards, a one term senator, elected by the narrowest of margins over a not particularly popular, incredibly right wing incumbent, who had chosen not to run for re-election in 2004 largely because he thought he would lose.
Candidates who might have been expected to help, but who nonetheless lost their home state are limited to:
1) Earl Warren - he's a big one. A wildly popular governor, he couldn't bring California home for Dewey.
2) Estes Kefauver - There are mitigating factors, though. Kefauver was always a fairly shaky figure in his home state - one of the only southern senators to support civil rights, conservatives within the Tennessee party detested him. Tennessee was also always the least solidly Democratic state of the former Confederacy - it also voted for Warren G. Harding in 1920, for Herbert Hoover in 1928, for Eisenhower before in 1952, and for Nixon in 1960. It's not terribly surprising that Stevenson lost Tennessee in 1956.
3) Lloyd Bentsen - a reasonably popular Senator, who had easily beaten George H. W. Bush in a Texas Senate race in 1970. Bush had no particularly deep-seated home state popularity in Texas. Still, Texas had been trending Republican in national elections for some time, and Dukakis probably did better as a result of Bentsen being there than he would have otherwise.
So, of the ten people who lost their home state, 7 were completely predictable, and two more were relatively predictable.
I will make a prediction right here. If Obama chooses Rendell as his running mate, he will not lose Pennsylvania. If he chooses Richardson as his running mate, he will not lose New Mexico. If McCain picks Crist as his running mate, he will not lose Florida. I don't know that other choices will necessarily seal down their states, but I think those three are pretty solid, and they represent states that are already leaning in the direction of their prospective running mate. Another Earl Warren is possible, but ultimately doesn't seem incredibly likely.
Sean wrote:
"As for the boo-hooers and drama queens about Ferraro and her diarrhetic commentary, puh-leeze. She's an adult in the public sphere; she's a grownup who has to own her behavior and I happened to notice it. It's also not a cheap shot; I'd say it to her face and don't you doubt that for a New York minute. There I go destroying the integrity of the world again. Oh Noes!!1!1111!!!!!1! What will we do? Where will we go? Can we trust Nate's Virginia regression number now?"
No, sir, you need to own up to your behavior. You called her a racist, one of the most vile labels you can place on someone, when there is not any evidence to suggest that she is.
I'd add that I think Rendell helps largely due to his past history as mayor of Philly, and the widespread popularity that gave him in the Philly area, not because of any particularly great love of him statewide (although he won't hurt in the rest of the state, either). Rendell got 71% of the vote in the Philly suburbs in his re-election, while winning the state as a whole with 60%. Casey, despite winning the state as a whole by nearly as large a margin, got only 60% in the Philly suburbs. Rendell is hugely popular in the area.
I dislike Ferraro. I agree that Ferraro's comments about Obama were racists. But strongly agree with other commenters that calling her a racist is not appropriate for this site. There are plenty of blogs for overheated rhetoric, and that's not what I come to this one for. You are bringing down the tone, man.
If Obama chooses Rendell as his running mate, he will not lose Pennsylvania. If he chooses Richardson as his running mate, he will not lose New Mexico. If McCain picks Crist as his running mate, he will not lose Florida. I don't know that other choices will necessarily seal down their states, but I think those three are pretty solid, and they represent states that are already leaning in the direction of their prospective running mate.
Indiana gets nailed down if the running mate is Sen. Bayh. He's still wildly popular in Indiana, and Indiana is already purpler-than-usual this year.
I say it's worth striking the word "racist" from the post, if it gets all the clingy bitters to shut up.
Leave the shots like 'racist' out of the posts here -- this site is such an incredible wealth of insight into statistics and poll analysis, you hurt the focus and credibility of the site when you inject emotions into it like that. Not to mention it makes people more likely to think you're putting your personal pro-Obama bias into the numbers (though I do not myself think so).
John, that's a great post. You clearly know your presidential political history.
"There I go destroying the integrity of the world again. Oh Noes!!1!1111!!!!!1! What will we do? Where will we go? Can we trust Nate's Virginia regression number now?"
Wow Sean, how old are you? I'm only sixteen, but even to me you sound immature.
I really don't think Evan Bayh nails down Indiana. He would certainly help in Indiana, but it's quite a Republican state - he'd be a much more likely Earl Warren, I think, than Rendell or Richardson.
In terms of Ferraro, can it be noted that she's pretty much always been a racist? Her signature issue as a congresswoman was opposition to busing.
Ferraro defenders seem to think that being racist is a binary proposition. You are either not racist or George Wallace. In reality, there are many shades of racism. The line where the word 'racist' becomes appropriate is subjective and therefore both arguable and perfectly legitimate to use as an opinion.
What's up with all the Ferraro apologists?
Did they all get on this site at the same time?
Agree with heiosfootball: it's not binary.
the statements she made more than once over a 20 year time period remove any ability to claim "outrage" with any credibility over Sean's comments which I completely agree with (interesting to have a poll on this, but I don't know that the ferrero apologists would much like the results).
My real question is could Strickland bring in Ohio?
Apparently, he is pretty popular there. Also, he might have an organization that could really help him.
Is it not conceivable that Strickland could make Ohio safe (perhaps from a barely democratic state to a leans democratic state)?
He wouldn't be my choice which I say so that no doubts are left regarding my rationale for the question.
Last question here/ask:
When will we see real polling including potential vps matched up?
I don't support Clinton on the ticket, but this is their one and only argument:
her impact on Ohio, Michigan, Florida, Pennsylvania and Arkansas overcome the drag she is elsewhere;
with her, he wins those states more easily than he would otherwise and the chance of him losing the state without her is much higher.
Polling with vp matchups can either validate or invalidate her one and only argument.
This has convinced me of the absolute need for Obama to have Evan Bayh as VP.
Sean wrote: "There I go destroying the integrity of the world again. Oh Noes!!1!1111!!!!!1! What will we do? Where will we go? Can we trust Nate's Virginia regression number now?"
I think all the arguments about if Ferraro is or isn't racist, and if you would or wouldn't tell her to her face your opinion, are utterly irrelevant to the point being made by the readership here, and the argument about whether or not we trust Nate's numbers is largely a strawman.
The readership here appreciates this site because to a large extent, the highly opinionated vitriol isn't here. The numbers are the thing, and people come here for that.
As has already been said - those comments from an "official blogger" here debases the site, makes it far more partisan than is necessary, and is highly off-putting. And, to ask the question - no, it doesn't change the numbers, but it DOES call into question the objectivity of those running them.
I hope, Sean, that you think about that some. Daily Kos gives plenty of room for that kind of discourse, and Nate links to there on the sidebar. That kind of discourse isn't needed here.
roberttxstate said...
What's up with all the Ferraro apologists?
Yeah.... because everyone who doesn't want to have that kind of discourse ***here*** is an apologist.
For the record, I'm an African American woman, and found Ferraro deeply offensive in some instances, and at least highly prejudiced in others.
And I don't particularly want that to be the focus of discussion here. I come here to read about the numbers, to guage how the race is going, and to learn from you all about the validity of the process, and it's output. I don't deserve to be called names for wanting the site to be what it has been.
Did you find it offensive that Obama said he would cause African-American turnout to go up by 30%? He's basically saying the same thing Ferraro said - his race will help him in the general election.
By saying Ferraro is racist you are making your site no better than partisan hack blogs.
John,
You went from something you claim (no documentation) that Obama said to something completely different.
Ferraro said that he was only in the first place position due to his race.
Obama (assuming you were accurate and honest in your paraphrase) said that he would increase the turnout of African Americans.
Those are two completely different things.
And if you think that being an African American is a boon to one's political opportunities in the General Election, I sure wish that you would explain why there hasn't even been a single African American candidate for President who has had any chance at all of winning.
Ferraro is racist. That was a racist comment to make. It was laughable in its assertion. It was similar to her comments 20 years ago.
The outrage doesn't work given her comments. I'm sorry, it just doesn't.
All Sean did was post the truth.
To those of you complaining about Sean's "racist" comment. Get over it. I don't see it as a big deal. For the things she has said in public she deserves far worse than that.
Let me add a further clarification to John.
You claim that he said that he would increase the turnout of African Americans.
So, at most, assuming you were honest and accurate in your paraphrase and summary, he says that with this one ethnic group he might get an advantage by winning a greater turnout.
Not that this did Alan Keyes much good, but I have my doubts about whether you have thought this out, certainly not very well.
Now, did he claim that he would get that vote simply due to his ethnicity?
No, he didn't. Hence, Keyes is illustrative.
He gets the votes of African Americans because of his policies. If he had the wrong policies, then regardless of his ethnicity, he wouldn't get their votes.
Next, does anyone actually deny that ethnicity hurts Obama more than help him?
Obama didn't deny this. And publicly, he isn't in a position to.
But anyone who thinks that WV and KY voted for reasons other than what they themselves frankly told complete and utter strangers in exit polling is making arguments for reasons other than the facts.
This was completely exploded. right. here. right. now.
Is anyone listening?
Ferraro ISN'T the issue. Bringing her into the discourse IS the issue.
The proof is - we're still talking about her as if she matters! This site isn't about Ferraro, unless...
unless... Sean or Nate want to take on the statistics of her claim. That might be fun to do... ;) but otherwise, she's completely irrelevant, and making statements about her mental disposition one way or the other is a distraction from the purpose of this site.
I agree that the phrase "the racist Geraldine Ferraro" is completely inappropriate. It's one of those catch phrases that when you read it, it clues you in that you better not believe anything you read on this website. I've been coming to this site for months now and it's absolutely a treasure. Please refrain from such superfluous vulgarities, lest this site get lost among the masses of talking heads.
I'm confused - I would think that Nate and Sean would get to decide what is appropriate material for their blog, not an anonymous commenter who calls him or herself "The Obama Project."
This is deeply tiresome. If Sean thinks Ferraro is a racist, he has every right to say so on his own fucking blog. You can criticize his statement on the merits if you want to, but it's ridiculous to criticize him because it's somehow against the mission of his blog.
John said...
I'm confused - I would think that Nate and Sean would get to decide what is appropriate material for their blog, not an anonymous commenter who calls him or herself "The Obama Project."
And on this note, I bow out. Apologies for offering offense. For clarification's sake, I wasn't the original poster complaining of the remarks - and it was (and is) my opinion - that the complaint was being misread. I took it upon myself to champion the actual complaint, and not the side discussion of if or if not Ferraro is a racist or deserves to be called such.
If such is the level of discourse Nate and Sean want, as what this thread has become, I'll accept it and move on. There are other blogs for arguing and such... I thought, perhaps wrongly, that here was a refuge from such.
Back to the topic of the post!
Sean, I'd say you have pretty well exploded the theory that a VP can bring his home state on board for the ticket just because it is his home state.
But putting Richardson on the ticket would operate similarly to Gore's putting Lie-berman on the ticket in 2000: to reinforce the President in states he thought he needed to win. Lie-berman was selected to appeal to the Jewish vote in South Florida - but for the "butterfly ballot," which led to thousands of votes being counted for Pat Buchanan when the voters almost certainly intended to vote for Lie-berman, Joe's being on the ticket probably would have made it impossible for Bush to steal Florida.
Gore as VP on the Clinton ticket had a similar purpose: to reinforce Clinton with white Southerners, particularly in the border states. Gore probably helped in that regard, though perhaps not as much as Lie-berman helped Gore in Florida.
This year, Richardson would reinforce Obama's appeal with Latino voters in three battleground states with 19 EV (New Mexico, Colorado, and Nevada). That purpose seems a little less urgent today, with two of the last three Ohio polls so encouraging. But if Michigan starts slipping into the McCain column, the Southwestern states could provide the margin of victory in the EV. And I do think that Richardson on the ticket would probably push Latino support from two-thirds up to three quarters, which could turn out to be just enough to make the difference between winning just one state (say, Colorado) and winning all three.
Putting Edwards or Jim Webb on the ticket as VP might function to add a few percentage points to the ticket's performance in border states (OH, IN, MO - 42 EV) including possibly WV. I think this observation is probably more speculative than the idea that Richardson could bring a few key per cent of the Latino vote in the Southwest.
Nice job on demonstrating the fallacy of pushing Strickland or Rendell or Vilsack or Sibelius to strengthen the Obama ticket. The limited polling that has been done has shown that neither Rendell nor Strickland would add much, if anything, to Obama's support in the home state of the VP. That result is solid preliminary current data supporting your conclusion from historical examples that there is no point this year in picking a candidate to bring in his home state for the ticket.
Again, good work!
So VPs don't change people's minds, but may increase turnout in a state among those who'd vote for u anyway?
If that's the case, then maybe a popular CA candidate makes the most sense. Obama, if it be he, needs as large a popular vote "mandate" as possible to govern as the first non-white male prez.
McCain may end up in a "control-the-damage" position of trying not to lose in a blowout for the good of his party. (Also, if he can convince the O campaign to spend extra money on defending CA, this is where it could cost the O campaign the most to play insurance defense.)
In truth, single state dynamics are a pretty low priority for both these guys.
Obama needs to prove his judgement with the pick, as in, "Yes, I will pick solid, experienced guys for my cabinet too. Not radical, know-nothings, as I'm falsely accused of being."
McCain needs to pick someone who swing voters see as a credible replacement. He's 72. The last president who was nearly as old when elected did announce his alzheimers not terribly long after leaving office. (Is it not fair to mention that?)
For such a quantitative site, I have to say this post is disappointingly quantitative! Surely with your analytical ability you could model what the popular vote should have been in the Vice President nominee's home state and compare that with what it actually was. Would it surprise anybody if having a home-state VP generally added 1-3% to the popular vote in that state? In that case, picking, say Sebelius, would not put Obama over the top in Kansas. But picking Strickland might get some extra people voting Democratic in Ohio, which could mean the difference in the state.
Here's why saying "the racist Ferraro" is ridiculous to this column, and makes this web site not worth reading if you are a woman. I look at your list of names in your VP discussion. ALOT of those presidential and VP candidates you mention from the past are a lot more racist than Geraldine Ferraro was, has been, or ever will be. Why did you not choose to say "the racist Woodrow Wilson." He admitted himself that he was. Does this adjective not need to be applied to the men listed?
“to the extent they have set about deliberately trying to add a state with a VP pick it has almost never worked.”
That’s your thesis, but this study clouds the answer with a ton of needless info. You include a pile of races where parties never made such an attempt. It would be like saying that Manny Ramirez doesn’t hit very well with runners on base and then going into mind-numbing detail about his batting average over the years. The answer doesn't fit the question.
Until 1988, It looks like Presidential candidates chose VPs primarily to unite ideologically and regionally diverse parties and swiping a state was low on the priority list. Uniting the party was urgent because that regional and ideological diversity was well represented on the convention floor where the decision would be announced. Moderate Eisenhower picked conservative western Nixon. Northern liberal Kennedy picked Southern conservative Johnson. Southern conservative Johnson picked Northern liberal Humphrey. Western Conservative Nixon picked Northern moderate Agnew (yes - Agnew had a progressive record in Md). Southern moderate Carter picked northern liberal Mondale. Northern moderate Ford picked conservative Dole. Western conservative Reagan picked moderate Bush. The attitude was “let me win this party nomination now and I’ll worry about winning a general later.”
Also nearly every election before 1960 was a rout so the concept of stealing a “swing state” would have been silly.
Things are different now. The parties are very homogeneous, regionally and ideologically, so uniting them is not as important. And since 1960, there have been only 4 complete routs out of 12 elections so the concept of significant swing states is very applicable.
In the instances where candidates tried to win states with a VP, they were QUITE SUCCESSFUL. Successful examples are Johnson’s TX in 60, Muskie’s ME in 68, Mondale’s MN in 76 and 80 (if there was ever an argument for VPs winning states, it's the map from 1980 where Carter/Mondale won 5 states, the biggest being Georgia and MN), Gore’s TN in 92 & 96 and Lieberman’s FL in 00. Bentsen’s TX in 1988 was a failure. Gore didn't carry his own state in 2000 because Monica played very poorly in the bible belt and Gore was seen by this time as a Northern liberal, even by his own state. But in 2000, Gore chose a moderate jew - making a very direct play - not for CT but for Florida - which he actually won were it not for a few butterfly ballots for Buchanan.
That’s a record of 7-1 in swing states. And I’m not cherry-picking stats. I defy you to show one other example of a candidate trying to steal a swing state since 1960. Cabot-Lodge in 60, Humphrey and Miller in 64, Agnew in 68, Shriver in 72, Bush in 80 & 84, Ferraro in 84, Quayle in 88 & 92, Kemp in 96, Cheney in 00 & 04, and Edwards in 04 (arguably) all had no chance to affect winning or losing in their home states and that was not why they were chosen.
New Mexico is the swingiest of states and it seems certain that Obama could put it away with the choice of its Governor - Bill Richardson - provided no scandals were uncovered. And if there is a “presidential” VP candidate who reinforces Obama’s strengths and bolsters his weaknesses from Ohio, Virginia, Colorado Michigan or Florida, then the Obama campaign would be foolish to not heavily consider him or her.
I don’t know if Stabenow (MI), Brown (OH), or Salazar (CO) look presidential or have strengths that complement Obama, but choosing one of them in a close election could be the difference between winning and losing.
St. Paul Sage's comments are right on. Ferraro and Kemp were not brought on to win New York. They were 1 of 30-some House representatives in the state, and didn't really have statewide connections to the entire state. I don't think candidate are even trying to make plays for states when they choose House representatives, unless they choose a House representative from a small state, who thus represents the entire state. But when you look at times where VP was for regional balance, it worked, contrary to Sean's post.
But Sean isn't interested in explaining. He is interested in cheap shots inserted into his posts.
Yes, thanks, St Paul Sage, for saying just about everything I was formulating in my head as I read the original post.
According to Rasmussen, both Pormtan and Stricland hurt their respective nominees in OH more than the help them. No chance either one is named...
Calling Geraldine Ferraro racist was completely unnecessary and false. Sean, can you honestly call that a white, first term Senator could have gotten the Democratic nomination over Hillary Clinton? Ferraro said nothing that was factually incorrect.
jbday - Though I agree that Sean's comment was completely inappropriate, you can't say that Ferraro said something that was "factual". It's an opinion, and so is Sean's statement.
Besides which, something can be clearly true, while still being racist -- it's the intent with which it is said. The controversy is about determining what she meant, not whether it was true.
The main thing to remember about Ferraro is that the Obama campaign never called her a racist. She seized upon that term and attributed it to the campaign and was off and running as a paid FOX commentator. I do not consider her a racist. I consider her a person who had a serious conflict of interest and little respect for the truth.
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