So many polls, so little time! This is everything that's been released today, including the results from our morning edition.
Let's begin in Ohio, where Rasmussen's latest data contradicts the notion that Barack Obama is surging in the state. He still trails John McCain by one point in their polling; McCain had also led by one point in their May survey. There are several factors to consider here. Firstly, this poll postdates the Quinnipiac poll by a few days. I'm not yet convinced that Obama's bounce is receding, in part because there haven't really been any intervening news events to give some momentum back to John McCain, but that's always something to keep in mind. Secondly, some of the pollsters (like SurveyUSA and PPP) that had shown Obama leading in Ohio by fairly large margins tend to have a more fluid/less grounded conception of party identification than does Rasmussen. In Ohio, they're finding a huge shift in party identification, with as much as 50 percent of the state identifying as Democrat, and running with those numbers as is. Since SurveyUSA and PPP identify a lot more Democrats in their sample, and since much of Obama's bounce appears to be in the form of bringing Democrats back home to their party, it is not surprising if they are showing more movement toward him.
Unfortunately, there are no definitive answers about how one should measure party idenitifaction, and we won't really know who got it right until November. At a gut-feel level, it's hard not to imagine Ohio being somewhat close. At the same time, Obama's problems in the state had stemmed from his poor performance in Southern Ohio, which is part of Appalachia. And this is the region in which his bounce appears to be most profound: his polling has improved by 12 points in Kentucky and 15 in Arkansas, and he took some huge steps forward in Southern Ohio in Quinnipiac's regional breakdown.
Other Rasmussen polling does show a bounce for Obama. In Maine, he's ahead by 22 (up from 13 a month ago), and in Alaska, he trails McCain by just 4 points (down from 9 a month ago). There is certainly some novelty value in the notion of a Democrat competing in Alaska. But it's a state that the Obama campaign ought to be taking reasonably seriously: Alaska is the the youngest state in the country in a year where we have the largest-ever age gap between the two nominees. Indeed, it's probably time for Obama to visit Alaska. I don't have any numbers on this, but I would guess that candidate visits make more difference in smaller states, and particularly those that are out of the way geographically. If Obama visits Alaska, it will create a ton of earned media, and McCain will probably have to follow him to defend the state.
The notorious A.R.G. (American Research Group) is out with their first general election polling of the year; they have Obama leading by 5 points in Florida, and 12 in New Hampshire. You probably know that I don't have the highest opinion of ARG, but in their defense, their general election polling has tended to be pretty decent -- it's their primary polling that has been a mess. I do not, incidentally, find the New Hampshire result implausible, precisely because New Hampshire has some history of overreacting to current trends. With few New Hampshirites fitting into hard-and-fast demographic categories, and many of them identifying as independents, there is probably a higher fraction of swing voters there than any other state in the country. So as the country swings, New Hampshire swings twice over.
Finally, two results that tend to confirm our current impressions in a couple of states. In Virginia, Public Policy Polling has Obama ahead by 2 -- this is their first poll of the Commonwealth -- and in Wisconsin, SurveyUSA has Obama ahead by 9, up from 6 last month.
6.18.2008
Afternoon Polling Update, 6/18
by Nate Silver @ 7:08 PM...see also alaska, arg, florida, maine, new hampshire, ohio, party identification, rasmussen, today's polls, virginia, wisconsin
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44 comments
What is going on in the EV distibution chart on the right hand side?
Woohoo! All good.
anon:
I believe it's just a histogram of the number of EVs that Obama gets in their 10,000 simulation runs. Think of it as a probability distribution for the number of EVs he'll get. The coloring simply reflects the fact that if Obama gets below 269, McCain wins.
Personally, I find the red/blue coloring distracting, and would simply plot the histogram in a neutral color with a vertical line at 269.
By "less fluid conception of party ID", do you mean that SurveyUSA/PPP don't weight by party ID, or that they do weight by party ID, but they weight differently.
(I'm assuming Rasmussen does weight by party ID...)
Sorry- I meant "more fluid", not "less fluid".
I'm pretty sure they don't weight by party ID, Ned. If you read the PPP report for Ohio, it states the party ID question as just another question posed to the random sample, rather than something imposed upon the sample.
Advice: reduce clutter on the front page and archive things up so people can see what you were predicting when so they can see if you're cred or not. Ciao.
I'm guessing that the first Anonymous is referring to the spike in the histogram at what looks like 536 EV or so. I've been wondering about it too. It seems like it should a fantastically unlikely result, and it's out of line with the results around it.
agree with asmodeus, at least have graphs shoing how your projection for each state changes over time
Nate - I've also read that it's possible that the enthusiasm gap means that Obama supporters are more likely to answer polls than McCain supporters, which is skewing the results in Obama's favor. What's your take on that idea? Is it possible?
Anonymous/asmodeus:
Nate used to have a win-percentage tracker until the most recent update. He said that he will bring it back once he has retrofitted the old data to the new model.
Re Anon at 00:51 UTC+1 about enthusiasm gap -
There was a similar effect in polls during the past decade in the UK, with 'shy Tories' who support the Conservative party skewing the raw figures in favour for the Labour party. I wonder how much study has been done to a similar effect here.
Ah, good to see that "Pacific" has re-appeared on the State breakdown. CA, WA, OR & HI haven't seceded from the union after all! ;)
Anon at 6:51: I'll just jump in here, and say that if McCain supporters can't be bothered to answer polls, then what are the odds they'll actually vote?
If the party ID is trending anything in 2008 it's going to be trending more Democratic not less, so an assumption of a fixed party I.D. would understate Obama's vote. How much however remains to be seen.
I thought you said that party I.D. was relatively fixed Nate? If it varies wildly from state to state like they're finding in Ohio then all bets are off and I don't know how to read the polling.
Best guess seems to be that the real Obama bounce in Ohio is about where you have it: around 7% -- I.E. somewhere closer to the Quinnipiac survey at +6 than the PPP survey at +11. Further polls will give us a better idea.
If the Rassmussen poll continues to be an outlier, will they adjust their party I.D. in future polls? Or will they stick it out and risk the exposure?
I'd be a lot more worried if SurveyUSA wasn't also showing Obama +9 in their last poll a month ago in May. But, with 3 out of the last 4 polls showing a significant Obama bounce in Ohio, it's safe to say he's ahead there.
I also notice that Qunnipiac's survey is more than double the size of Rassmussen's. It may just be that the Rassmussen poll just fell into that 5% that isn't within the margin of error. I.E., it's an outlier.
As for Florida, I'm astounded at how Obama has bounced into the lead in the last 2 polls. McCain's campaign didn't even think Florida was going to be a battleground state! And now they're trailing!
Obama Pollster Pimp O-P-P
what my homies are callin me
i can turn red states into blue
with regression analysis version 2
gonna go to chi town to find a crib
gonna become a high paid marxist lib
should i live by reverend wright?
gated golf course community, i've seen the light
or how bout hyde park next to Mr. O
i'll get a loan from tony rezko
i'm just doing the best i can
first time ever proud to be an american
who ever though fudgin numbers could be so good?
gonna be livin in a rich white people neighborhood
gotta go now let me be
Obama Pollster Pimp O-P-P
nate,
every time i click on your site, the numbers change, and i can't remember each time if they are better or worse!
it would be so nice to have a "previous/next" button set or a little scroll bar to be able to animate your pie charts. or a click through to a tracker for each item. when the numbers change, i feel blinded to the past.
Hm, I seem to remember that ARG's 2004 polling turned out to be a hot mess. They released a poll the day before the election with Kerry winning FL by 2%.
I am a fractal: you are one funny bean!
Anonymous at 18:58 - Mr Bennett, I think your taking this too far!
Nate,
i realize this is a small nit to pick but no part of Arkansas is in Appalachia as conventionally defined.
Nate, several people have questioned the huge spike just north of 500 delegates. Could you give us a little explanation of what this represents? Is it, as I suspect, the effect of Texas jumping to Obama?
1. How come there is such a discrepancy between the national polls showing Obama up by 4 points on average and the state-by-state polls with numbers that would indicate Obama is ahead by like 9 points nationally (e.g., winning FL by 5, PA by 11 or 12, New England by 20 or so, WI by 9-13)?
2. ARG is so bad that even though it is based in New Hampshire, ARG got the NH primary winner wrong like everyone else. It's like the Raleigh, NC-based PPP that was way off on the NC primary.
If Rasmussen and Survey USA agree on a state, go with that.
Is it just me, or does the EV distribution chart look a lot like Virginia?
Nate-
Please debunk this for everyone. A 50-50 chance that Obama wins popular vote and loses the electoral college?
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0608/11182.html
OK, here I go off topic:
Anon 20:10 -- It looks strikingly like Virginia, an omen perhaps?
Anon rap artist -- I'm curious, why the "rich white neighborhood" & "gated golf course community" lines? Nate lives in the Mexican part of town. And Hyde Park is majority black. On that note, the charges of Hyde Park elitism always strike me as kind of odd. Yes, Sen. Obama's house is worth $1 million (in the still inflated real estate bubble), but the neighborhood is also really mixed socioeconomically--the Obamas live around the corner from fairly cheap apartment buildings.
I agree with preader. Article says McCain is up by 11 in Indiana. I'd be curious in what poll since none on the right are such.
Peter B, "rich white neighborhood" & "gated golf course community" lines? Don't you watch TV? Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil--that's you. That is where Rev. Wright is moving courtesy Trinity Church--fore!
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/721609/bill_oreilly_says_obamas_pastor_is.html?cat=7
I don't know much about Hyde Park, but I saw a picture of his crib & it looks nice.
http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=206601&src=1
Nate needs to move in with his peeps.
I've a hunch Nate did live in Hyde Park or vicinity since he attended University of Chicago. But I doubt sincerely that he can afford to buy a house in that neighborhood unless he makes a whale of lot more money writing about baseball than anyone can imagine.
Um, am I the only one to notice that all of 538's posts are archived? What are people complaining? Look at the lower left hand part of the page.
Western Swing: "I realize this is a small nit to pick but no part of Arkansas is in Appalachia as conventionally defined."
Arkansas is largely in the Ozarks, and that area tends to have a similiar voting record as KY & WV.
I think Nate is using 'Appalachia' here as shorthand for the kind of voters with Scots-Irish heritage that typically identify as 'American' in censuses and populate the Appalchian and Ozark regions.
Hope that helps.
.
Anonymous @ 8:53p: "Peter B, "rich white neighborhood" & "gated golf course community" lines? Don't you watch TV?"
*Snort*
Just what we need - concern troll wingers who get all their news from TV.
Dude, thanks for providing more evidence that the mainstream TV media is painfully biased towards the right *and* woefully misinforming the public.
.
Mike H in Cali said...
"1. How come there is such a discrepancy between the national polls showing Obama up by 4 points on average and the state-by-state polls with numbers that would indicate Obama is ahead by like 9 points nationally (e.g., winning FL by 5, PA by 11 or 12, New England by 20 or so, WI by 9-13)?"
Not sure where you're getting that state-by-state numbers indicate Obama is up by 9 or so. Nate's popular vote estimate is almost identical to the national polling averages (538 currently has Obama up 4.4%). It is derived from his state-by-state projections, which in turn are based on the state-by-state polling.
BTW, I've seen you post over at pollster.com. Welcome to 538--it's like pollster, but way better.
Well, for example. In 2004, Kerry lost the popular vote by about 2 points. Kerry did 3 points worse in FL, losing by 5. So if Obama were now up by 4 nationwide, he should only be up by 1 point in FL -- not by 5 as ARG says. A 5 point lead in FL means Obama should be around 8 points up nationwide.
Mike in Cali on Pollster.com is not me. I am Mike H in Cali.
This is a great site, but I don't get how you give Obama such a great chance in certain states. These guys did a pretty good summary on that:
http://beyondthepolls.blogspot.com/2008/06/giggle-test.html
Nate,
I've watched Rasmussen's results for several years and have been under the strong impression that unlike some other pollsters, Rasmussen weights their results according to pre-determined partisan ID split.
Given that Rasmussen generally shows a larger percentage of GOP identifiers (less so recently) than other organizations, I've generally applied a rule-of-thumb that Rasmussen's results, while "reliable" are usually tilted a few percentage points in favor of GOP candidates.
For what it's worth, I tested my impression on Rasmussen's 2006 US Senate polls that (if memory serves) showed a higher GOP percentage in the last pre-election poll than the candidate received in 19 of 21 races.
Given your new relationship with Rasmussen, I'm wondering if you can confirm these impressions.
And if my belief that Rasmussen weights their results according to a pre-determined partisan ID split is correct, I'm interested in how you view that practice. (It seems to me to be particularly illegitimate.)
I think I may have found the answer the question of how Rasmussen handles party identification weighting: at least for national polling he uses a the three-month average of the responses to his party identification question, updated monthly. So his party identification figures will lag behind other pollsters by by several months, his polls would be slow to respond to registration drives and swings in party identification.
I don't know how this affects his state polls. Are his party identification numbers for states figured the same way?
You're correct, Richard. At least from what I know. And I also believe that Rasmussen began more frequent updating of the partisan weights only after being seriously out of date awhile back.
Personally, I find ANY weighting by partisanship to be only one step away from weighting responses to a candidate preference poll by a predetermined split of candidate preferences. Totally unacceptable. But I'm an old school pollster. And some folks disagree.
In any event, there are several questions that remain. One is why Rasmussen's partisan split consistently favors the GOP compared to most other national pollsters. (My guess is that it may be the result of fewer callbacks and more substitutes. Perhaps they even weight the partisan ID by partisan ID, though that seems especially crazy.)
The other question is that since partisan ID obviously varies by state, if they weight by partisan ID, what figures do they use in state level polls.
I'd love it if someone could provide a definitive answer to these questions.
I agree with you jsh1120. I want to know precisely what numbers Rasmussen uses in weighting his state polls. Does he keep a state-by-state party-ID average? Does he use 2004 turnout (which would be incredibly unreliable)? Does he use the national numbers?
Anyone?
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